Christmas?

[Albion]

Dec 25th is not arbitrary, and I'm tired of posting data to the contrary.

Very well. That was a poor choice of words. I should have said that we don't know the day of the year on which Christ was born, but the December 25 date was one that had a theoretical basis behind it. However, it just was one of many.

Rest easy now.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Thats your opinion, nothing more. And I love the allusion to "scriptural event" as giving backing to your ideas. Wars and murder and adultery, incest are "scriptural events" in the bible does that give them legitimacy?

So now you're comparing the birth of our Lord to war, muder, adultery, and incest?

 

[]RiSeN[]

Ok.

For instance, in the initiation ritual into the mystery cult of Isis. Initiants would have to undergo the practice of immersion.

Just one example, among many others.

I suppose you're going to say that baptism, as practiced, is a pagan ritual which should be rejected.

more starwman please. When did i express the idea of absolutism? Your simply trying to pass off the idea that since "pagan influence" is ridiculous when taken to an extreme and absolute application, then it is incredible. And pointing out similarities doesn't disprove anything. Next your going to tell me that Christendom hasn't been influenced by paganism because the muslims have mohammed.

 

[]RiSeN[]

Very well. That was a poor choice of words. I should have said that we don't know the day of the year on which Christ was born, but the December 25 date was one that had a theoretical basis behind it. However, it just was one of many.

Rest easy now.

Yes you can find the "theoretical basis" alluded to here :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas

 

[Albion]

more starwman please. When did i express the idea of absolutism? Your simply trying to pass off the idea that since "pagan influence" is ridiculous when taken to an extreme and absolute application, then it is incredible. And pointing out similarities doesn't disprove anything. Next your going to tell me that Christendom hasn't been influenced by paganism because the muslims have mohammed.

Starman, huh? We resemble that remark, but there's no time now. Got to get bring that deer back to life and find my way back to the mother ship.

Seriously, such speculations aren't doing anything for your POV. If there are indeed "false doctrines" within Christianity because of pagan influence, list a few for us.

The Christmas tree is hardly a doctrine, true or false. The fact that we celebrate the resurrection of Christ is mentioned right in scripture itself. So, is there anything with substance to present?

 

[E.C.]

The Christmas Tree is what can accurately and appropriately be called a....... custom.

However, in some places and cultures having a Christmas Tree is.... tradition. Not Tradition, but tradition.

 

[Albion]

Yes you can find the "theoretical basis" alluded to here :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas

Not a bad article, but people on debate boards are going to have to stop thinking that Wikipedia means anything. Some pages are such baloney that they are embarrassing. After all, anyone can post anything he wants to any article and get away with it unless some other individual posts something over it. That's not much of a "source."

 

[]RiSeN[]

Starman, huh? We resemble that remark, but there's no time now. Got to get bring that deer back to life and find my way back to the mother ship.

LOL. Ummm I said strawman, not starman. LOL yes i know of the misspelling.

Seriously, such speculations aren't doing anything for your POV. If there are indeed "false doctrines" within Christianity because of pagan influence, list a few for us.

the trinity, immortal soul, eternal torment of hell, and clergy-laity are good places for you to start.

The Christmas tree is hardly a doctrine, true or false.

Another STRAWMAN.

The fact that we celebrate the resurrection of Christ is mentioned right in scripture itself.

What book and verse please?The only observance Christ gave to commemorate was the Last supper.

So, is there anything with substance to present?

The problem is that "substance" is relative, or that it goes over peoples heads sometimes.

 

[]RiSeN[]

Not a bad article, but people on debate boards are going to have to stop thinking that Wikipedia means anything. Some pages are such baloney that they are embarrassing. After all, anyone can post anything he wants to any article and get away with it unless some other individual posts something over it. That's not much of a "source."

Perhaps you prefer this:http://www.catholicity.com/encyclopedia/c/christmas.html

 

[Albion]

LOL. Ummm I said strawman, not starman. LOL

You may think that's what you wrote, but it actually was "starwman" which is certainly open to speculation, isn't it?

the trinity, immortal soul, eternal torment of hell, and clergy-laity are good places for you to start.

Well, it's you who are starting us off since you made the claim. However, mentioning doctrines without also offering any reason to think them pagan is no start. You need more than an allegation.

Another STRAWMAN.

Christmas trees were indeed mentioned earlier in this thread along with other customs surrounding the day. So there's no "strawman" argument there. But if you are not associating yourself personally with that line of thought, good.

What book and verse please?The only observance Christ gave to commemorate was the Last supper.

Do you believe that the New Testament is the word of God...or only the parts that are Jesus speaking? If it is the former, read Acts 20.7, 1 Cor 16.2, and Rev 1.10, and get back to us.

The problem is that "substance" is relative, or that it goes over peoples heads sometimes.

Try us.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

About colonial Amarica, here is some more info, I don't belive the pilgrems that first landed here were puritans.....I'll try to look that up too.

They immediately The Plymouth Rock began work on " the first house, for common use, to receive them and their goods." To the Pilgrims, Christmas was a pagan Saturnalia, and " so no man rested all that day."

http://books.google.com/books?id=dg...ts=BGN1OBmmaK&sig=OM7HKgDKaRkYnKeslqJ53vndWIY

 

[jesusfreak3786]

The Christmas tree is hardly a doctrine, true or false. The fact that we celebrate the resurrection of Christ is mentioned right in scripture itself. So, is there anything with substance to present?

Yes I can just visualize Paul, Peter, and John skipping around gleefully with Easter baskets full of the colourful eggs they found, in celibration of the fact that thier beloved master was tortured and killed on account of their sin........actualy no I can't.

 

[]RiSeN[]

You may think that's what you wrote, but it actually was "starwman" which is certainly open to speculation, isn't it?

yes i noticed, it is somewhat misleading.

Well, it's you who are starting us off since you made the claim. However, mentioning doctrines without also offering any reason to think them pagan is no start. You need more than an allegation.

Its not up to me to prove it to you, you need to prove it to yourself. See 2Cor 13:5-6.

Do you believe that the New Testament is the word of God...or only the parts that are Jesus speaking? If it is the former, read Acts 20.7, 1 Cor 16.2, and Rev 1.10, and get back to us.

These verses are speaking of the arrangements the apostles had made with the congregation to fund their travels and ministry such as lodging and food costs and also for looking after the needy. In no way do they allude to celebrating Christs birthday except through your saying so. And as for Revelation 1:10 I hope your joking if you are saying that the Lord's day is christmas....

Try us.

You have been tried and you have been found wanting.

 

[Albion]

Yes I can just visualize Paul, Peter, and John skipping around gleefully with Easter baskets full of the colourful eggs they found, in celibration of the fact that thier beloved master was tortured and killed on account of their sin........actualy no I can't.

...And this is an answer to a comment about the CHRISTMAS TREE??

How?

The mention of the obvious, that a tree is not a doctrine, didn't elude you, did it?

 

[Albion]

Yes I can just visualize Paul, Peter, and John skipping around gleefully with Easter baskets full of the colourful eggs they found, in celibration of the fact that thier beloved master was tortured and killed on account of their sin........actualy no I can't.

Can you imagine Paul, Peter, and John going around with "WWJD" bracelets on? Can you just visualize them preaching before a Christian rock band onstage with electric instruments? actually no, I can't.

 

[Albion]

Its not up to me to prove it to you, you need to prove it to yourself.

Well, if you don't have the courage of your conviction, maybe making leading statements with the kind of confidence you did is a mistake.

These verses are speaking of the arrangements the apostles had made with the congregation to fund their travels and ministry such as lodging and food costs and also for looking after the needy. In no way do they allude to celebrating Christs birthday except through your saying so. And as for Revelation 1:10 I hope your joking if you are saying that the Lord's day is christmas....

Not saying any of that. And I think you've lost track of what the point was that you are responding to. I said: "The fact that we celebrate the resurrection of Christ is mentioned right in scripture itself."

It was not about Christmas. The verses I gave you deal with the celebrating of the day that Christ rose, the Lord's Day, as their day of worship. The practice is right there in scripture.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Yes I can just visualize Paul, Peter, and John skipping around gleefully with Easter baskets full of the colourful eggs they found, in celibration of the fact that thier beloved master was tortured and killed on account of their sin........actualy no I can't.

Actually, I CAN see Peter, Paul & John gleefully engaged in an Easter Service at any number of Christian churches - joyfully celebrating, and preaching, the Resurrection of our Lord.

They may very well make an object lesson out of the empty eggs, but I think they'd probably leave the Bunny out of it.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Can you imagine Paul, Peter, and John going around with "WWJD" bracelets on? Can you just visualize them preaching before a Christian rock band onstage with electric instruments? actually no, I can't.

I actually CAN see any of those 3 men doing exactly that.

Clearly, as I read the book of Acts, I see Paul going to wherever the people were - wherever the audience was. If it was the men of the Athenian marketplace, he'd be there. If it was an arena full of punks - who would at least listen - I think he'd be there.

Of course, those are just my thoughts...

 

[Albion]

I actually CAN see any of those 3 men doing exactly that.

Clearly, as I read the book of Acts, I see Paul going to wherever the people were - wherever the audience was. If it was the men of the Athenian marketplace, he'd be there. If it was an arena full of punks - who would at least listen - I think he'd be there.

Of course, those are just my thoughts...

I can visualize them preaching in open marketplaces, and in front of punks (as you called them). But that's not what I wrote.

If Jesusfreak thinks that we can't imagine them dancing around with Eastern baskets, neither can we imagine them doing what most Christians do during today's worship services, with modern instruments, loudspeakers, overhead projectors, electric lights, etc. Her point missed its mark, is all that that means.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

Roman pagans first introduced the holiday of Saturnalia, a week long period of lawlessness celebrated between December 17-25. During this period, Roman courts were closed, and Roman law dictated that no one could be punished for damaging property or injuring people during the weeklong celebration. The festival began when Roman authorities chose “an enemy of the Roman people” to represent the “Lord of Misrule.” Each Roman community selected a victim whom they forced to indulge in food and other physical pleasures throughout the week. At the festival’s conclusion, December 25th, Roman authorities believed they were destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering this innocent man or woman.

In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.

Many who are excitedly preparing for their Christmas celebrations would prefer not knowing about the holiday’s real significance. If they do know the history, they often object that their celebration has nothing to do with the holiday’s monstrous history and meaning. “We are just having fun.”
Imagine that between 1933-45, the Nazi regime celebrated Adolf Hitler’s birthday – April 20 – as a holiday. Imagine that they named the day, “Hitlerday,” and observed the day with feasting, drunkenness, gift-giving, and various pagan practices. Imagine that on that day, Jews were historically subject to perverse tortures and abuse, and that this continued for centuries.
Now, imagine that your great-great-great-grandchildren were about to celebrate Hitlerday. April 20th arrived. They had long forgotten about Auschwitz and Bergen Belsen. They had never heard of gas chambers or death marches. They had purchased champagne and caviar, and were about to begin the party, when someone reminded them of the day’s real history and their ancestors’ agony. Imagine that they initially objected, “We aren’t celebrating the Holocaust; we’re just having a little Hitlerday party.” If you could travel forward in time and meet them; if you could say a few words to them, what would you advise them to do on Hitlerday?

Poeple can continue to rationalize and make exuses....because Christmas is just a "having some fun" But once you have accurate knowlage of what it really is, and continue to partake, IMO they are rejecting the truth.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm