Christmas?

[SeraphimSarov]

i am too sarcastic and opinionated for them to let me in...hehe
that and I know what sex is like (obviously with 3 kids), they'd be buggin me for stories...KIDDING!

You have to be non-opinionated to live the ascetic life? I dunno; I know plenty of monks with some strong opinions and a good sense of humor... And of course, there are widowed folks who enter monasteries, so there are people who have "known" another human being. (Heaven forbid that this should become the situation for you!)

They would beat me in my sleep....

It should be you who is administering the beatings!

(Yes, I know beating one's kids is illegal; don't PM me.)

 

[StevenL]

christmas = silly fables

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Many Christians are not aware of the pagan origins of the holidays of Christmas and Easter and when they learn about them they pray and follow the Lord's leading about them.
Many of these Christians do decide that celebrating Christmas and Easter does not really honor the Lord.
For those who still continue to celebrate them, it is between them and the Lord.
I think it is good to help people who do not know the pagan origins of the holiday to become aware of them so that they can pray about it.
I do not think that people should condemn one another for either celebrating or not celebrating them.

I don't disagree that people should be educated about church history.

But where I take serious issue is the idea that worship practices can just be between the individual and our Lord. Christ founded a community of believers, and the vast majority of those believers celebrate his birth on December 25th. Any supposed pagan influences on the holidays cannot compare the joy we feel in our hearts at our Lord's arrival and the solidarity we enjoy by celebrating together. We worship as a community because we are in communion with each other. The idea of the rugged individual might be a great myth of the American mind, but it has no place in Christian worship.

 

[Albion]

Many Christians are not aware of the pagan origins of the holidays of Christmas and Easter

If you want to pursue that line of thought, EVERYTHING about Christianity except for Christ has "pagan origins." Even the idea of a savior dying and being reborn. Problem is..."pagan origins" is a very imprecise term that suggests a real connection when in fact it only means that pagans did something similar before us. It does not mean it's actually pagan.

Yes, Christians took over some pagan paraphenalia and made them into Christian items. Nothing to do with the faith, but the externals. They used former pagan temples. They even took over some pagan symbols and used them against the pagans. The tree is one. Pagans worshipped the tree, but Christians used it to educate them, pointing out that their tree (oaks, etc.) "died" during the winter, while "our" god can never die, as symbolized by the evergreen that retains its color and foliage year-round. And don't forget that the first Christians DID celebrate the Lord's Resurrection (Easter) and his birth. There's no pagan conspiracy or prompting for that.


It's only when people don't know anything about Church history that they fall victim to the "pagan origins" theory. We baptise, but the pagans did so before. We celebrate the Lord's Supper, but other religions did that before. We use banners and music and candles just like pagans did. Are we to stop every activity that brings to mind God's work in our lives just because some non-Christians did something similar before us? I don't think that makes much sense.

 

[E.C.]

When something that was once evil is used for good and remains used for good, than it is no longer evil because evil has converted to good.

Just thought I'd like to throw that out while wondering why people get so hung up about origins.

 

[E.C.]

But where I take serious issue is the idea that worship practices can just be between the individual and our Lord. Christ founded a community of believers, and the vast majority of those believers celebrate his birth on December 25th.

December 25th only if you are New Calendar.

 

[Albion]

the vast majority of those believers celebrate his birth on December 25th.

In fact, no one knows for sure when Christ was born and the choice of December 25 is admittedly arbitrary. So if that is the case, I am comfortable asking anyone "What's wrong with celebrating the birth of our lord but at a time when we (or the early disciples, to be exact) could 'trump' the pagans?" It's not as if we are celebrating THEIR festival.


Like the Christmas tree, it was an educational decision.

 

[]RiSeN[]

I don't disagree that people should be educated about church history.

Shouldn't they leave a church which condones unscriptural practices and doctrines?

But where I take serious issue is the idea that worship practices can just be between the individual and our Lord. Christ founded a community of believers, and the vast majority of those believers celebrate his birth on December 25th.

Your simply attempting to use ad populum; "alot of people like christmas therefore christmas is righteous." Wrong. Is adultery o.k because many practice it?

Any supposed pagan influences on the holidays cannot compare the joy we feel in our hearts at our Lord's arrival and the solidarity we enjoy by celebrating together. We worship as a community because we are in communion with each other. The idea of the rugged individual might be a great myth of the American mind, but it has no place in Christian worship.

Your using an appeal to emotions; "christmas makes some people feel good therefore christmas is righteous." Also wrong. So adultery is o.k because it make people feel good..... right.

 

[skywatching]

If they are really illegal, then I am happily guilty...little buggers will get a tail beat if needed.

 

[Albion]

Shouldn't they leave a church which condones unscriptural practices and doctrines?Your simply attempting to use ad populum; "alot of people like christmas therefore christmas is righteous." Wrong. Is adultery o.k because many practice it? Your using an appeal to emotions; "christmas makes some people feel good therefore christmas is righteous." Also wrong. So adultery is o.k because it make people feel good..... right.

Excuse me, but have you been pounding the side of your head with that drumstick too long?

None of that is what he said. "Pagan influences" does not mean "condones unscriptural practices and doctrines," and the community of believers does not mean 'Do what the majority does' or 'Follow your emotions in everything' (to paraphrase the comments offered).

 

[ParsonJefferson]

When something that was once evil is used for good and remains used for good, than it is no longer evil because evil has converted to good.

Just thought I'd like to throw that out while wondering why people get so hung up about origins.

That's a very good point - though, as you know, it doesn't apply to everything equally.

There are churches that do things like "Light Night" on Halloween. They'll do something like a Bible Characters Costume Party for the kids, and provide a wonderful alternative to dressing up like ghosts and going out trick-or-treating. The kids & their families end up with good fellowship, fun, possible outreach, and some really good Bible stories. And how can that be bad, just because Halloween has pagan/satanic origins?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

December 25th only if you are New Calendar.

Haha. Orthodox....

 

[Oblio]

Dec 25th is not arbitrary, and I'm tired of posting data to the contrary.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Shouldn't they leave a church which condones unscriptural practices and doctrines?


Your simply attempting to use ad populum; "alot of people like christmas therefore christmas is righteous." Wrong. Is adultery o.k because many practice it?


Your using an appeal to emotions; "christmas makes some people feel good therefore christmas is righteous." Also wrong. So adultery is o.k because it make people feel good..... right.

Oh c'mon. You can't seriously believe that's a good counterargument.

You know there's a big difference between sinning and celebrating a Scriptural event with an unknown day on a common day.

And no, I'm not arguing because of democracy or epicurian interests. I'm saying that you're breaking unity with the historic church for no good reason, you schismatic egoist.

 

[]RiSeN[]

If you want to pursue that line of thought, EVERYTHING about Christianity except for Christ has "pagan origins." Even the idea of a savior dying and being reborn. Problem is..."pagan origins" is a very imprecise term that suggests a real connection when in fact it only means that pagans did something similar before us. It does not mean it's actually pagan.

I think this is the same line of argument Bill Clinton used in the Monica Lewinski ordeal; "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." Let's not start redefining words.

Yes, Christians took over some pagan paraphenalia and made them into Christian items. Nothing to do with the faith, but the externals. They used former pagan temples. They even took over some pagan symbols and used them against the pagans. The tree is one. Pagans worshipped the tree, but Christians used it to educate them, pointing out that their tree (oaks, etc.) "died" during the winter, while "our" god can never die, as symbolized by the evergreen that retains its color and foliage year-round. And don't forget that the first Christians DID celebrate the Lord's Resurrection (Easter) and his birth. There's no pagan conspiracy or prompting for that.

Wow, anyone else dizzy from all that 'spinning'?

It's only when people don't know anything about Church history that they fall victim to the "pagan origins" theory.

The evidence to the "theory" is overwhelming in supporting pagan infection.

We baptise, but the pagans did so before.

Which pagans?

We celebrate the Lord's Supper, but other religions did that before.

Which pagans celebrated the last supper before christians?

We use banners and music and candles just like pagans did.

Yes, we breath and blink and poop just like the pagans did too.

Are we to stop every activity that brings to mind God's work in our lives just because some non-Christians did something similar before us? I don't think that makes much sense.

I always love this excuse(highlighted in red), that since something somehow brings God into are thoughts it must be righteous. The end does not justify the means with God. God demands true worship according to His standards, not our own fancies.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Which pagans?

Pretty much all of them. Ritual immersion was a widespread practice in the ancient world.

 

[]RiSeN[]

Pretty much all of them. Ritual immersion was a widespread practice in the ancient world.

Go on....

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Go on....

Ok.

For instance, in the initiation ritual into the mystery cult of Isis. Initiants would have to undergo the practice of immersion.

Just one example, among many others.

I suppose you're going to say that baptism, as practiced, is a pagan ritual which should be rejected.

 

[Albion]

I think this is the same line of argument Bill Clinton used in the Monica Lewinski ordeal; "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." Let's not start redefining words.

Words have meaning. On the one hand you may be saying, "close enough," except that in this case it matters.

Let's move on.

The evidence to the "theory" is overwhelming in supporting pagan infection.

If it is "overwhelming," you can share with us some of the essentials of Christian belief that are actually an unintended continuation of pagan worship. The allegation, even with the word overwhelming added to it, doesn't do much to convince us.

Which pagans celebrated the last supper before christians?

Sacred meals in which the participants believed that they were bonding themselves to their god by eating of the meal he was associated with were commonplace among a number of Middle Eastern religions before Christ. The same is true of ritual washings. Although they are not pagans, you are aware that the Hebrews also baptised before the Christian era, so don't be surprised that similar symbolism was used by pagans as well.

Yes, we breath and blink and poop just like the pagans did too.

Which, according to the logic of your position, makes us "pagan influenced." I don't think so.

I always love this excuse(highlighted in red), that since something somehow brings God into are thoughts it must be righteous.

Perhaps you have too many pat replies set to go. No one said anything like that, meaning that no refutation of it is in order.

 

[]RiSeN[]

Oh c'mon. You can't seriously believe that's a good counterargument.

Counterargument? I think there needs to be first an argument , which you have substitued with offering only erroneous thinkings and opinions. Its called logic, but i cant force you to use it.

You know there's a big difference between sinning and celebrating a Scriptural event with an unknown day on a common day.

Thats your opinion, nothing more. And I love the allusion to "scriptural event" as giving backing to your ideas. Wars and murder and adultery, incest are "scriptural events" in the bible does that give them legitimacy?

And no, I'm not arguing because of democracy or epicurian interests. I'm saying that you're breaking unity with the historic church for no good reason, you schismatic egoist.

So fully of fallacies, not to mention the ad hominems. Now your saying my argument is wrong because it goes against the "historic church". You offer nothing more than an uninformed appeal to tradition. "this church is old so it must be right...". Nonsense.