Christians - what if you're wrong?

[Akureyri]

Because we believe we feel we have faith....we know and that in my opinion is all you need to know.

John 3:16

That only means you know you feel you have faith. Referencing passages in the Bible doesn't show you know you're right. It only shows you know what is written in the Bible.

How do you know you're right?

 

[Akureyri]

Like Paul said, if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not raised, and we are all still dead in our sins and still damned like the rest of mankind.

What does it mean to be dead in our sins?

What does it mean to be damned like the rest of mankind?

How can you know what Paul is quoted to have said is true?

 

[shawnavery]

That only means you know you feel you have faith. Referencing passages in the Bible doesn't show you know you're right. It only shows you know what is written in the Bible.

How do you know you're right?

Refer to my post

John 3:16

 

[Akureyri]

Refer to my post

John 3:16

How do you know you're right?

 

[Akureyri]

When I go to a craft show and see an intricate wood carving for sale, I do not doubt the existence of its creator. I've never looked them in they eye and shaken their hand, but they obviously are real.

When I look at and ponder the marvel that is our universe, I also do not doubt its creator. Through the truth revealed in scripture, through prayer, and through accepting what is obvious to me, I've grown to know our Creator, guided by his Holy Spirit, and through his Son.

In one case you see something which you know is made by man. In the other case, you see something for which you don't know how it came into existence.

Why do you slap the God label on the cause of something for which you don't know how it came into existence?

 

[shawnavery]

How do you know you're right?

Reference my post

John 3:16

 

[Akureyri]

Reference my post

John 3:16

How do you know you're right?

If it's in a previous post of yours, please copy and paste in your next post.

 

[bhsmte]

How do you know you're right?

If it's in a previous post of yours, please copy and paste in your next post.

He knows he is right because the circular reasoning always goes back to the bible. And, the bible can never be wrong, right?

 

[contango]

I'm often asked to consider what if I'm wrong. What if I'm wrong and I end up going to hell and suffer for eternity. Christians have presented Pascal's Wager to me in an apparent attempt to keep me from suffering for eternity in hell. But it's a two way street:

What if those who hold belief in the Christian God go to a hell of eternal punishment and suffering, while rational non-believers go to an eternal paradise full of love and happiness.

Have you ever considered this?

I've frequently considered it. Before I decided to become a Christian I desperately wanted Christianity to be false, so I was investigating it coming from a vested interest of wanting it to collapse under scrutiny. Even so I still came to the conclusion that Jesus Christ is who he said he is, and that worshipping and following Jesus Christ is the right thing to be doing.

In many ways Pascal's Wager is a useful analogy but as you say it starts to fall down when there are so many different options, many of which say they are the only true way. We can discount the universalism-based approaches that teach that all paths lead to God, because if those are true it doesn't really matter what we do.

Could I be wrong? It's theoretically possible. But I'm sufficiently convinced that I'm willing to stake my eternal future on following Jesus.

 

[shawnavery]

I've frequently considered it. Before I decided to become a Christian I desperately wanted Christianity to be false, so I was investigating it coming from a vested interest of wanting it to collapse under scrutiny. Even so I still came to the conclusion that Jesus Christ is who he said he is, and that worshipping and following Jesus Christ is the right thing to be doing.

In many ways Pascal's Wager is a useful analogy but as you say it starts to fall down when there are so many different options, many of which say they are the only true way. We can discount the universalism-based approaches that teach that all paths lead to God, because if those are true it doesn't really matter what we do.

Could I be wrong? It's theoretically possible. But I'm sufficiently convinced that I'm willing to stake my eternal future on following Jesus.

Amen

 

[xTx]

Reminds me of the -

The parable of the ten virgins and of the talents. The description of the last judgment

Gospel according to Saint Matthew Chapter 25

[10] Now whilst they went to buy, the bridegroom came: and they that were ready, went in with him to the marriage, and the door was shut.

[11] But at last come also the other virgins, saying: Lord, Lord, open to us. [12] But he answering said: Amen I say to you, I know you not. [13] Watch ye therefore, because you know not the day nor the hour. [14]

.....

[21] His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant, because thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will place thee over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. [22] And he also that had received the two talents came and said: Lord, thou deliveredst two talents to me: behold I have gained other two. [23] His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant: because thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will place thee over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

........

[26] And his lord answering, said to him: Wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sow not, and gather where I have not strewed: [27] Thou oughtest therefore to have committed my money to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received my own with usury. [28] Take ye away therefore the talent from him, and give it to him that hath ten talents. [29] For to every one that hath shall be given, and he shall abound: but from him that hath not, that also which he seemeth to have shall be taken away. [30] And the unprofitable servant cast ye out into the exterior darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The question God will ask us at the end of our lives, did you treat others well?

Did you treat yourself well?

Did you love God with all your heart, your soul and your mind?

Yes or no.

That shows, God wants works as well as faith in Him.

We will never know if we made it until our day of judgment.

Jesus taught in the verse I quoted that we have to be ever watchful of our conduct.

If we do not bear fruit, we will be cast out and barbecued.

Yes, a good Hindu might go to heaven but a bad so called 'Christian' could end up in hell. Possible.

God is watching us

 

[dhh712]

Not looking for support. I'm trying to get a better understanding of how Christians think.

I must have missed this post. It is a definitely, in my opinion, a valid thing to wonder about. To the unbeliever, I can imagine (and have at one point, having been an unbeliever myself, thought this way about those who believe in God, though before I have only had experience with the beliefs of humanity-centered Christians) it must seem that those who believe in the God of Scripture are very foolish and abandon logic.

I will attempt to explain how I think (me, being a Christian with a God-centered belief--there are those Christians who are humanity-centered). I live with the knowledge that my life is under that authority of a Sovereign God who has fore-ordained all things. I believe that the only truth is found in Scripture--that is where all wisdom and knowledge comes from. There is worldly wisdom and worldly reason. It can be very good to have a firm grasp of this to deal with *things of this world*.

Yet it is not truth if it is contrary to Scripture for that is the ultimate authority source. It matters not what the world tells people--it only matters, in spiritual matters, what God tells us.

Lots of people make this huge nonsensical deal with "science" having disproven some of the things supposedly having taken place in the Bible. Well, I do agree that lots of things which scientists have found out about the world tell us that there are pieces of evidence derived from the world which seem to point, and some seem rather conclusive, to the thought that some things in the Bible couldn't possibly have taken place.

To me and most other God-centered Christians (I would say all of them, for them to be God-centered and not man-centered, but of course I cannot know this), this matters very little. The world is not our source of truth. Scripture is. This can seem circular reasoning, but then I say that people who favor what the world tells them over Scripture are using their own circular reasoning, except from the world instead of Scripture.

Basically, I trust God not the world. That is the way I think. Reason and sciences and worldly wisdom are very useful and fascinating things which I don't see any reason why they should be shunned. It doesn't make any sense, since we are to live in the world. Yet worldly reason should not be revered about that reason/wisdom provided to us by God in Scripture.

I'm not sure if that helped explained the way I think. I really don't think I think much different from other people except that I have a different mindset on where my priorities are. Not that God always has first place--I am not that foolish to think that I'm not just as sinful as any one else in having my false idols. Among the many valuable lessons to be learned from Scripture is the one of humility: there is not one believer who differs in any way from the unbeliever in their status as a sinner before God. What differs is their belief upon Him, their trust in Him.

 

[oi_antz]

I'm often asked to consider what if I'm wrong. What if I'm wrong and I end up going to hell and suffer for eternity. Christians have presented Pascal's Wager to me in an apparent attempt to keep me from suffering for eternity in hell. But it's a two way street:

What if those who hold belief in the Christian God go to a hell of eternal punishment and suffering, while rational non-believers go to an eternal paradise full of love and happiness.

Have you ever considered this?

This was suggested in the gospel of Judas. It is a scary thought, there is plenty to fear of the unknown. I trust Jesus, He is so right.

Edit: oops, I read the first page and thought that was it, I'll do some catching up, sorry about that!

 

[oi_antz]

Hi Akureyri, I have read the rest of the thread and I do have to say that Sedoy seems to be correct in his last paragraph of post #4. Are you aware that this is how you come across? Is it intentional, or are you just naturally quite brief?

Here's a couple of comments I'd like to contribute toward:

Did you take any photographs? Do you have any objectively measurable evidence of this encounter?

I think this could be worded more effectively and less of an attack/defense. Are you actually interested in the truth? This person has made an interesting claim, I should think that if you were interested in knowing more about how Christians think, this would be a very valuable opportunity to gain some insight.

Does he want me to believe he exists?

You might want to reflect on that a bit more. Is there something about yourself that would make Him want or not want it?

I agree
John 3:16

I find that this is most often stated without the especially beneficial context of the verse that follows.

Why would a loving God allow evil?

A very good question, one you should treat seriously.

No need to read threads on why God allows evil.

If God exists in the presence of evil, then either:

1) God is incapable of doing anything about it (or is impotent)
2) God doesn't want to do anything about it (or is apathetic)

I say you are not considering another option. The fact exists that some people like evil and others don't. Do you not think it is useful to know which is which?

 

[WisdomTree]

I'm often asked to consider what if I'm wrong. What if I'm wrong and I end up going to hell and suffer for eternity. Christians have presented Pascal's Wager to me in an apparent attempt to keep me from suffering for eternity in hell. But it's a two way street:

What if those who hold belief in the Christian God go to a hell of eternal punishment and suffering, while rational non-believers go to an eternal paradise full of love and happiness.

Have you ever considered this?

Well, in that case we're screwed. However to be honest, Pascal's Wager is rather silly in itself and doesn't even work.

 

[contango]

No need to read threads on why God allows evil.

If God exists in the presence of evil, then either:

1) God is incapable of doing anything about it (or is impotent)
2) God doesn't want to do anything about it (or is apathetic)

This really is the same old tired line that keeps getting trotted out, usually with an implied "hah, bet you didn't think of that one".

God gives us free will. That means we get to choose good or evil. So that means if I've got a big stick it's up to me whether I hit you with it. If I hit you with a big stick it's going to hurt (i.e. something bad happens to you). So does that make God impotent (unable to protect you) or apathetic (unwilling to protect you)? You forgot malicious (amused at your suffering) by the way.

Or does it mean God isn't going to override my free will even if he doesn't approve of the decisions I make? If he were to override my free will I become some kind of automaton, unable to make any decisions for myself because if I choose the wrong thing God steps in and overrules me.

 

[Akureyri]

Hi Akureyri, I have read the rest of the thread and I do have to say that Sedoy seems to be correct in his last paragraph of post #4. Are you aware that this is how you come across? Is it intentional, or are you just naturally quite brief?

Here's a couple of comments I'd like to contribute toward:

I think this could be worded more effectively and less of an attack/defense. Are you actually interested in the truth? This person has made an interesting claim, I should think that if you were interested in knowing more about how Christians think, this would be a very valuable opportunity to gain some insight.

I am interested in the truth. One of the things I'd like to know more about Christians is how they feel about the fact that they might be wrong. I'm humble enough to know I don't know the truth. But many Christians come across as being highly arrogant, making claims about the universe & its history that advanced scientists don't even claim to know.

You might want to reflect on that a bit more. Is there something about yourself that would make Him want or not want it?

I can only go by what Christians say. They say God wants me to believe he exists. Therefore, if God is real and can do anything, it would behoove him to do whatever it takes to get me to believe he exists. So far I've seen nothing. This means either no god exists or if a god exists, he either can't do anything or doesn't care if I believe he exists.

I find that this is most often stated without the especially beneficial context of the verse that follows.

A very good question, one you should treat seriously.

The only answer to the problem of evil if God exists and is all loving is that he is incapable of doing anything.

I say you are not considering another option. The fact exists that some people like evil and others don't. Do you not think it is useful to know which is which?

Think again.

If God exists in the presence of evil, then either:

1) God is incapable of doing anything about it (or is impotent)
2) God doesn't want to do anything about it (or is apathetic)

How could a typhoon slamming into the Philippines be because some people like evil?

 

[contango]

I am interested in the truth. One of the things I'd like to know more about Christians is how they feel about the fact that they might be wrong. I'm humble enough to know I don't know the truth. But many Christians come across as being highly arrogant, making claims about the universe & its history that advanced scientists don't even claim to know.

If you pick any group of people you'll find some who come across as highly arrogant. That doesn't change the truthfulness or otherwise of what they believe in.

I can only go by what Christians say. They say God wants me to believe he exists. Therefore, if God is real and can do anything, it would behoove him to do whatever it takes to get me to believe he exists. So far I've seen nothing. This means either no god exists or if a god exists, he either can't do anything or doesn't care if I believe he exists.

Playing party games might sound all well and good but I can tell you that if you don't want to believe nothing will convince you.

The only answer to the problem of evil if God exists and is all loving is that he is incapable of doing anything.

Think again.

If God exists in the presence of evil, then either:

1) God is incapable of doing anything about it (or is impotent)
2) God doesn't want to do anything about it (or is apathetic)

How could a typhoon slamming into the Philippines be because some people like evil?

The typhoon may not be caused directly by the actions of evil people. But if we want God to stop that sort of thing, where do we draw the line? It's easy to look at specific Very Bad Things and wring our hands wondering why God didn't intervene, but if God were to stop one thing we'd only respond the same way to the new Very Bad Thing. Sooner or later we'd be wondering how a loving God could allow people to stub their toes on the gold bricks they use as doorstops.

 

[Akureyri]

This really is the same old tired line that keeps getting trotted out, usually with an implied "hah, bet you didn't think of that one".

God gives us free will. That means we get to choose good or evil. So that means if I've got a big stick it's up to me whether I hit you with it. If I hit you with a big stick it's going to hurt (i.e. something bad happens to you). So does that make God impotent (unable to protect you) or apathetic (unwilling to protect you)? You forgot malicious (amused at your suffering) by the way.

Or does it mean God isn't going to override my free will even if he doesn't approve of the decisions I make? If he were to override my free will I become some kind of automaton, unable to make any decisions for myself because if I choose the wrong thing God steps in and overrules me.

How does us having free will make it any less possible for an all-powerful God to prevent disastrous typhoons such as the one which slammed into the Philippines?

If a rapist rapes a child and an existing god loves the child, then it means this god is incapable of stopping the rapist from raping the child.

If a rapist rapes a child and an existing god can do anything but doesn't stop the rape, then it means he doesn't love the child enough to prevent the rape.

A rapist could be on his way to rape a child when God causes the rapists car to break down such that the rapist isn't able to rape the child. Has the rapist's free will been violated?

 

[WanderingBloom]

What if we're right?

Burn yourself with a lighter.

Imagine that sensation penetrating all that you are beyond the mere flesh that hurts now and the pain lasting for all of eternity.

That is one heck of a punishment to suffer because you decided wrongly while there was still time in your life to avoid what amounts to an infinite, "We told you so".

I'm often asked to consider what if I'm wrong. What if I'm wrong and I end up going to hell and suffer for eternity. Christians have presented Pascal's Wager to me in an apparent attempt to keep me from suffering for eternity in hell. But it's a two way street:

What if those who hold belief in the Christian God go to a hell of eternal punishment and suffering, while rational non-believers go to an eternal paradise full of love and happiness.

Have you ever considered this?