Christians - what if you're wrong?

[Akureyri]

If you pick any group of people you'll find some who come across as highly arrogant. That doesn't change the truthfulness or otherwise of what they believe in.

How do you feel about the fact that your Christian beliefs may not be the truth?

Playing party games might sound all well and good but I can tell you that if you don't want to believe nothing will convince you.

Let's say I don't know if it's sunny outside. And let's say I don't want to believe it's sunny outside. Now let's say I go outside and see it is sunny. I will then be convinced it is sunny. So your statement is flawed.

The typhoon may not be caused directly by the actions of evil people. But if we want God to stop that sort of thing, where do we draw the line?

It's not a question of whether or not we want God to stop things like typhoons, tornadoes and tsunamis. It's an issue of definitions. If God can do anything and loves everyone, then by definition, he would be stopping such catastrophic events from harming the lives of innocent people. But since such catastrophes occur, we know that if a god exists, it is either incapable of doing anything about the catastrophes or it doesn't love the affected people enough to prevent the catastrophes.

It's easy to look at specific Very Bad Things and wring our hands wondering why God didn't intervene, but if God were to stop one thing we'd only respond the same way to the new Very Bad Thing. Sooner or later we'd be wondering how a loving God could allow people to stub their toes on the gold bricks they use as doorstops.

If God knows everything, then he would know when a human suffers. And if God can't recognize that the victims of the recent typhoon did suffer, then he's either ignorant or non-existent.

 

[Arcwood]

My answer is this.

If God is right, then I am right to acknowledge that.
This pride and enlightenment arguably guides me down a path which is more profitable than a sinful one.

If God is right. then
I am prouder even than the sinner who mocks me and says I waste my life.
because the path I chose which has been shown me by God is by nature more pleasing then a sinful one.

If God were not true.
All is in vain. For historically the sinners are not glorified for their great works and favorable deeds.

 

[Sedoy]

I have been reading many of Akureyri replies. While he is saying that he is looking for God he is only looking for proof that there is no God. He is lying to himself and others but only fooling himself.

All topics go in the same way:

He asks the question.

He gets answers from multiple people.

Then he says: “No this is not an answer”

He asks same question again.

It goes on until people give up trying to talk to him.

At which point he declares to himself “See I am the only one who is right”

There is no point in having conversation with him because it is not possible to have an intelligent conversation. He is here on some kind of ego tickling, mind gaming trip and proving his own “divinity” since he is the only one who knows what an answer to his question is and which answer is the only right one.

He gets satisfaction from tormenting good hearted people who are trying to help him.

 

[dhh712]

He gets satisfaction from tormenting good hearted people who are trying to help him.

I don't know about that. From my cursory readings of his posts (I apologize for not being able to indulge in more thorough readings yet I've so much work to do on my novel), I really do feel that he is trying to understand God, just from the wrong viewpoint. It seems to me that he has come to the idea that God can be comprehended via worldly rationalization. Until he lets go of his idolization of worldly reason, he will never be able to come to know God.

That is simply because God has not yet condescended upon him with the offer to him of a relationship. Once the Holy Spirit convicts him of his status as a sinner before God and makes it known to him that his insistence of understanding God via worldly reasoning is a form of idol worship, hopefully he will accept the gift and take up a relationship with God (I can't understand how someone can't but I suppose it's possible; I'm not far enough in my studies to know about this).

I'm well aware that all of this can sound like much arrogance to the unbeliever; nevertheless, being aware of this is yet another instance where the believer should comprehend his standing upon the same level as the unbeliever: it is all a matter of ego to us because that is all it can be. Our difference from the unbeliever does not lie in appearing any different in the sight of God from the unbeliever in the regard to our actions or intents but rather in our trust and belief upon God.

 

[Sedoy]

I don't know about that. From my cursory readings of his posts (I apologize for not being able to indulge in more thorough readings yet I've so much work to do on my novel), I really do feel that he is trying to understand God, just from the wrong viewpoint.

Yes, from “I am “god”” point.

 

[dhh712]

Yes, from “I am “god”” point.

I would imagine that few if any non-believers with that point of view realizes this however. Not that it matters. I feel now that one of the great misfortunes that comes with lack of faith in God is the idea that there is some kind of neutrality one can assume regarding God (as long as the person isn't actively antagonistic towards God. I have encountered a few of these: those that say something along the lines of, "I don't believe in God, but I have nothing against Him; I don't hate Him or anything").

 

[oi_antz]

I am interested in the truth. One of the things I'd like to know more about Christians is how they feel about the fact that they might be wrong. I'm humble enough to know I don't know the truth. But many Christians come across as being highly arrogant, making claims about the universe & its history that advanced scientists don't even claim to know.

Yes, many Christians do come across as arrogant. That is another obstruction to your pursuit of faith. You must overcome that, because it is God's desire that you will come to Him. FYI, I don't actually fear being wrong about Jesus, I just don't think it is realistic. If you can provide evidence for why I should consider otherwise, I may be able to provide better insight.

I can only go by what Christians say. They say God wants me to believe he exists. Therefore, if God is real and can do anything, it would behoove him to do whatever it takes to get me to believe he exists. So far I've seen nothing. This means either no god exists or if a god exists, he either can't do anything or doesn't care if I believe he exists.

There's a bit more to it than that. The problem is that God knows that sin is a bad thing, but we do tend to like sin, in different ways and to varying extents. It is that attachment to sin that makes it difficult for us to accept His grace. I reflect on my time being against Christianity to see this. I assume you also think that God's expectations are sufficiently unreasonable, that you would rather not accept His judgement? Granted, this is the first time we have spoken, this is a huge assumption. So tell me, is that a false accusation?

The only answer to the problem of evil if God exists and is all loving is that he is incapable of doing anything.

That's ridiculous, since someone can create such a vast and detailed universe, it would be more proper to say that He is not willing.

Think again.

If God exists in the presence of evil, then either:

1) God is incapable of doing anything about it (or is impotent)
2) God doesn't want to do anything about it (or is apathetic)

How could a typhoon slamming into the Philippines be because some people like evil?

There are alternatives to fossil fuels that are far less lucrative to those who have control of the fossil fuel reserves. The hemp industry is capable of reducing atmospheric carbon, but at the expense of established industry. The suppression of alternative technolgies when those technolgies are capable of reducing frequency and severity of typhoons is IMO evil.

What if we're right?

Burn yourself with a lighter.

Imagine that sensation penetrating all that you are beyond the mere flesh that hurts now and the pain lasting for all of eternity.

That is one heck of a punishment to suffer because you decided wrongly while there was still time in your life to avoid what amounts to an infinite, "We told you so".

I have to tell you WanderingBloom, this is a terrible attitude to have. What if the roles were reversed such that you had been born into the environment that Akureyri was, and had all the expriences he has had, which caused you to become the person he is right now. Would you like someone to say "you're going to burn forever in unimaginable agony and I told you so"? I'm curious to know because I'm speaking with an atheist right now about Christian attitudes that don't bring people to Christ, I don't understand where someone would get this attitude. I don't want to scare you away, instead I want to know more so I can relate better when discussing these issues. Can you tell me, who taught you to say things like this, do you think it is helpful, and is it supported by scripture?

 

[dhh712]

What if we're right?

Burn yourself with a lighter.

Imagine that sensation penetrating all that you are beyond the mere flesh that hurts now and the pain lasting for all of eternity.

That is one heck of a punishment to suffer because you decided wrongly while there was still time in your life to avoid what amounts to an infinite, "We told you so".

We don't tell them anything. God tells them. The gift of faith shouldn't be used as an ego-booster over those who do not have belief. Rather, it should stir our humility that such a gracious and merciful God would be so compassionate as to offer us a relationship with Himself.

I wonder at such who can have scorn to the those without belief--especially someone without belief who at least has heard of the name of the living God to inquire at a Christian forum--they who have experienced the enduring forgiveness of God and His love for them to take them from their bondage to the world. Rather than scorn, would it not provoke a bitter mourning for those who have not known Him?

 

[Soothfish]

I'm often asked to consider what if I'm wrong. What if I'm wrong and I end up going to hell and suffer for eternity. Christians have presented Pascal's Wager to me in an apparent attempt to keep me from suffering for eternity in hell. But it's a two way street:

What if those who hold belief in the Christian God go to a hell of eternal punishment and suffering, while rational non-believers go to an eternal paradise full of love and happiness.

Have you ever considered this?

well...anyone who openly refers to themselves as "rational" is likely too arrogant to ever touch paradise. Humility is likely the only litmus test for heaven. Same goes for both theists and atheists.

 

[Arcwood]

I have to ask though Soothfish, Do you believe the kingdom of Heaven and Hell both co exist now on earth in the material plain, or do you think they are manifest in death?

 

[TheJust]

If you have even the slightest of doubts then hell is your destination, where you remain, until you finally choose to learn of the one true God. No matter how many times you say or think 'I believe so I am saved', the law will not change.

 

[oi_antz]

If you have even the slightest of doubts then hell is your destination, where you remain, until you finally choose to learn of the one true God. No matter how many times you say or think 'I believe so I am saved', the law will not change.

Which law are you referring to?

 

[oi_antz]

I have to ask though Soothfish, Do you believe the kingdom of Heaven and Hell both co exist now on earth in the material plain, or do you think they are manifest in death?

Why ask that? Are you suggesting no heaven or hell after death?

 

[TheJust]

Which law are you referring to?

And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. Luke 16:17

 

[oi_antz]

And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. Luke 16:17

That verse does not seem to support your claims in #73. You said that even the slightest doubt will put you in hell until you learn of the one true God. Then you said that was law. Is that really law? I don't recall reading a statement to that effect in the bible. Is it a biblical belief?

 

[Akureyri]

I have been reading many of Akureyri replies. While he is saying that he is looking for God he is only looking for proof that there is no God.

While it can't be proven that a god doesn't exist, the responses I've received in this message board strongly suggest that no god exists.

He is lying to himself and others but only fooling himself.

What lies have I told to myself?

All topics go in the same way:

He asks the question.

He gets answers from multiple people.

Then he says: “No this is not an answer”

While the responses could be classified as "answers", they don't adequately address the question I've asked. Thus I ask it again.

He asks same question again.

It goes on until people give up trying to talk to him.

At which point he declares to himself “See I am the only one who is right”

There is no point in having conversation with him because it is not possible to have an intelligent conversation. He is here on some kind of ego tickling, mind gaming trip and proving his own “divinity” since he is the only one who knows what an answer to his question is and which answer is the only right one.

Why not try to provide a legitimate response to my questions?

 

[Akureyri]

I don't know about that. From my cursory readings of his posts (I apologize for not being able to indulge in more thorough readings yet I've so much work to do on my novel), I really do feel that he is trying to understand God, just from the wrong viewpoint. It seems to me that he has come to the idea that God can be comprehended via worldly rationalization. Until he lets go of his idolization of worldly reason, he will never be able to come to know God.

That is simply because God has not yet condescended upon him with the offer to him of a relationship. Once the Holy Spirit convicts him of his status as a sinner before God and makes it known to him that his insistence of understanding God via worldly reasoning is a form of idol worship, hopefully he will accept the gift and take up a relationship with God (I can't understand how someone can't but I suppose it's possible; I'm not far enough in my studies to know about this).

I'm well aware that all of this can sound like much arrogance to the unbeliever; nevertheless, being aware of this is yet another instance where the believer should comprehend his standing upon the same level as the unbeliever: it is all a matter of ego to us because that is all it can be. Our difference from the unbeliever does not lie in appearing any different in the sight of God from the unbeliever in the regard to our actions or intents but rather in our trust and belief upon God.

While you're humble enough to admit you don't know for sure what my intentions are, you seem to know quite a bit about God. Just how can you know for sure what you're saying about God is true?

What gift have I been offered?

 

[Akureyri]

I am interested in the truth. One of the things I'd like to know more about Christians is how they feel about the fact that they might be wrong. I'm humble enough to know I don't know the truth. But many Christians come across as being highly arrogant, making claims about the universe & its history that advanced scientists don't even claim to know.

Yes, many Christians do come across as arrogant. That is another obstruction to your pursuit of faith. You must overcome that, because it is God's desire that you will come to Him. FYI, I don't actually fear being wrong about Jesus, I just don't think it is realistic. If you can provide evidence for why I should consider otherwise, I may be able to provide better insight.

How can you know what God's desires are?

Just as you can't know if you are right, you can't know that those with conflicting views from yours are not right. Do you know for sure that those who believe in the God of the Bible don't burn in a fiery pit of hell for eternity? If Yes, then how do you know this?

I can only go by what Christians say. They say God wants me to believe he exists. Therefore, if God is real and can do anything, it would behoove him to do whatever it takes to get me to believe he exists. So far I've seen nothing. This means either no god exists or if a god exists, he either can't do anything or doesn't care if I believe he exists.

There's a bit more to it than that. The problem is that God knows that sin is a bad thing, but we do tend to like sin, in different ways and to varying extents. It is that attachment to sin that makes it difficult for us to accept His grace. I reflect on my time being against Christianity to see this. I assume you also think that God's expectations are sufficiently unreasonable, that you would rather not accept His judgement? Granted, this is the first time we have spoken, this is a huge assumption. So tell me, is that a false accusation?

This isn't an issue of me accepting someone's judgement or grace. This is about a conclusion I've drawn about the priorities of your god - if he is real. I can't accept judgement or grace from something that doesn't appear to exist. Can you accept the judgement or grace of the Invisible Pink Unicorn?

So, no, it's not a false accusation. The lack of action of your god, coupled with the claims Christians have made means either no god exists or if a god exists, he either can't do anything or doesn't care if I believe he exists.

The only answer to the problem of evil if God exists and is all loving is that he is incapable of doing anything.

That's ridiculous, since someone can create such a vast and detailed universe, it would be more proper to say that He is not willing.

If God is not willing, then he doesn't love the victims of rape enough to stop the rapists from raping the rape victims. Why do you worship a god that sits there and does nothing while innocent children get brutally raped?

Think again.

If God exists in the presence of evil, then either:

1) God is incapable of doing anything about it (or is impotent)
2) God doesn't want to do anything about it (or is apathetic)

How could a typhoon slamming into the Philippines be because some people like evil?

There are alternatives to fossil fuels that are far less lucrative to those who have control of the fossil fuel reserves. The hemp industry is capable of reducing atmospheric carbon, but at the expense of established industry. The suppression of alternative technolgies when those technolgies are capable of reducing frequency and severity of typhoons is IMO evil.

If God can do anything, then he could stop the typhoon without diminishing his ability to do other things.

 

[oi_antz]

How can you know what God's desires are?

He has made it clear what He desires.

Just as you can't know if you are right, you can't know that those with conflicting views from yours are not right. Do you know for sure that those who believe in the God of the Bible don't burn in a fiery pit of hell for eternity? If Yes, then how do you know this?

No I don't, but then I haven't had to consider it before. What gives you the idea that God has that intention?

This isn't an issue of me accepting someone's judgement or grace. This is about a conclusion I've drawn about the priorities of your god - if he is real. I can't accept judgement or grace from something that doesn't appear to exist. Can you accept the judgement or grace of the Invisible Pink Unicorn?

Not yet, because the pink unicorn hasn't actually told me that he makes judgement or extends grace.

So, no, it's not a false accusation. The lack of action of your god, coupled with the claims Christians have made means either no god exists or if a god exists, he either can't do anything or doesn't care if I believe he exists.

I don't see how you can make that conclusion. He has performed a lot of actions, far more than any human could do, and far more IMO than should be necessary. 1. Why don't you see that? 2. Because you choose to not see it, you cannot suppose that He doesn't want you to see it. Do you still think your conclusion is correct?

If God is not willing, then he doesn't love the victims of rape enough to stop the rapists from raping the rape victims. Why do you worship a god that sits there and does nothing while innocent children get brutally raped?

I don't know if love will cause someone to do anything to protect what he loves, maybe it will, but I don't really claim to understand every decision that God makes. He can make good of a bad situtation, and people who suffer bad situations can be happy afterward. Maybe you can consider why God didn't stop Cain killing Abel, obviously God loved Abel. There might be something in that story to learn. I worship God because of the good He has done. I feel it is important to know that we have the same idea of what worship means. Can you explain what you are thinking when you say that I worship God?

If God can do anything, then he could stop the typhoon without diminishing his ability to do other things.

Sure, and He can stop the nuclear meltdown at Fukushima. What would that teach us?

 

[bhsmte]

He has made it clear what He desires.

What is your source for this and how do you know it is reliable?

No I don't, but then I haven't had to consider it before. What gives you the idea that God has that intention?

You have never contemplated other opinions in regards to God's desires?

Not yet, because the pink unicorn hasn't actually told me that he makes judgement or extends grace.

Has God told you directly that he makes judgement or extends grace and if so, how did he do so?

I don't see how you can make that conclusion. He has performed a lot of actions, far more than any human could do, and far more IMO than should be necessary. 1. Why don't you see that? 2. Because you choose to not see it, you cannot suppose that He doesn't want you to see it. Do you still think your conclusion is correct?

Please give examples of actions that come directly from God and how you know they can be absolutely attributed to God?

I don't know if love will cause someone to do anything to protect what he loves, maybe it will, but I don't really claim to understand every decision that God makes. He can make good of a bad situtation, and people who suffer bad situations can be happy afterward. Maybe you can consider why God didn't stop Cain killing Abel, obviously God loved Abel. There might be something in that story to learn. I worship God because of the good He has done. I feel it is important to know that we have the same idea of what worship means. Can you explain what you are thinking when you say that I worship God?

Can you explain why one would need to believe in a God to get over bad situations and be happy later?

Sure, and He can stop the nuclear meltdown at Fukushima. What would that teach us?

Are you saying God was intending to teach us something by allowing bad things like the meltdown to happen? If so, what is he trying to teach us and how do you know this?