Sloppy thinking doesn't appear to be a problem with your opponents only. To begin with, Jesus did not tell Peter to keep the sword He simply told him to put it away, there is a big difference.
OK, lets simplify it with a closer look at Paul.Its not that I would not want to answer you. Its just too much to do so with. One point, or two, would have sufficed.
OK, lets simplify it with a closer look at Paul.
In his former life as a Pharisee Paul obviously believed in using the sword to destroy those he saw as the enemies of the Jews. And for that reason we find that Paul had participated in putting Christians to death. So the question is, Did Paul continue on in his former belief that the sword and physical violence was acceptable in the eyes of God?
Toward the end of my post 69 I went on record saying, "If we kill by accident in the course of trying to protect ourselves, that is another matter. Our goal as individuals ought be only to immobilize our offender until he can be turned over to the government whom God has sanctioned to execute justice upon them."You are confusing.... violence wrongly done against others (as Paul had been doing).. with someone using force to save his life from someone wanting to do violence wrongly to him.
Paul was a unique situation. He was seen as an official doing official (religious) business. Paul was not some violent crack head wanting to kill them for their money.
We must differentiate. As in, sex is not intrinsically bad. Sex with ones wife is good. Sex when raping someone is bad. Both involve sex. Likewise, needing to kill another to stop them from wrongfully taking your life, is never the same as someone killing another out of killer lust.
now let's look at the context of the passage where they were told to take a sword...where in the passage does it say what they were or were not to use the sword for? Hint: It doesn't...iow's they were expected to use the scriptures to determine how to live as followers of Christ with a sword in their hands. Those scriptures at the time were the OT...thus we can allow our OT knowledge to inform us as to what the swords were there for and as some have pointed out and I won't do again because you all don't seem to care what scripture really does say, there are laws governing the protection of self and others and even things....which would have been the sword carrying handbook of the day....you know, the one that Jesus would have expected them to use.Really? ... You mean to tell me that he wanted Peter to stop having a sword right after Jesus told them to purchase one if they did not already have a sword?
Like I said. "Sloppy thinking."
Toward the end of my post 69 I went on record saying, "If we kill by accident in the course of trying to protect ourselves, that is another matter. Our goal as individuals ought be only to immobilize our offender until he can be turned over to the government whom God has sanctioned to execute justice upon them."
knocked in the back of my head on three different occasions and had my wallet stolen. Repeat offenses like that sometimes happens when you live in a high crime area and they see you as an easy mark.I have been held up at gun point by two men - one gun. Have you?
Well, I refused to agree to lessor charges but evidently the two women did agree and despite my objections the man was let go with a mere slap on the wrist. Our system is good but the people in charge very often show a sad lack of wisdom.
Well, that is because Yeshua walked according to those "laws in the OT" and encouraged us to study them. Remember, when the NT refers to the Word of God (in written form) or "Scripture" it isn't talking about the NT because there was no NT at that time. Just letters sent to various places writing about what was "Scripture" in that day... the Torah, Prophets and Writings.I find it very interesting when people go back to the plethora of laws in the OT to justify their agenda... Using your logic we should pressing our respective Governments to allow the buying and selling of slaves, and the stoning of and killing of adulterers and homosexuals.
Where in all of that is the two greatest commandments?
36 “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” 37 He said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Mt 22:36–40.
Funny side note...if you study enemy especially in the NT the enemy is always those that are against God...iow's our enemies are also God's enemies...from a biblical perspective. If we have other enemies we need to search our own souls and discover what is standing between us and God's perspective.And, we who are in charge of our own life are also show a lack of wisdom.
When Jesus said to love our enemies? He was not speaking of enemies to the nation, nor a criminal wishing to possibly kill you.
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ Mat 10:34-36
We are to love our personal enemies. A criminal raping ones wife should not be loved, but harmed badly to make him stop. That is... if one truly loves his wife. Some would turn Henny Youngman in that situation.
Well, that is because Yeshua walked according to those "laws in the OT" and encouraged us to study them. Remember, when the NT refers to the Word of God (in written form) or "Scripture" it isn't talking about the NT because there was no NT at that time. Just letters sent to various places writing about what was "Scripture" in that day... the Torah, Prophets and Writings.
And where are the two greatest commandments? In the OT... it isn't like they first appeared in the NT... love God and love neighbor are found in the Torah. When quoted in the NT they were quoting the OT... in fact, 1/3rd of the ENTIRE NT is OT quotes or inferences.
Paul was a Law abiding Jew... He even stated he never taught against the Torah. But you are free to believe whatever you are convicted of, as will I. You see, for example, Col. 2:16 saying you are free to not keep the Sabbath... and I read it and come away with the opposite... because I keep the Sabbath and new moon (yes, we gather as a congregation and sight it, blow the shofar and eat a potluckDon't confuse the parts of the Law that required ritual and how to personally live in Israel as a Jew (a woman having her period had to isolate herself from men) etc.... And, the parts of the Law that were given to establish a nation and civil freedoms.
"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink,
or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or
a Sabbath day." Col 2:16
Yet Paul remained according to the Law as to the means to determine the right thing that should have been done when it came to civil law as found in the Torah.
"Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things
deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve
of those who practice them." Rom 1:32
All Scripture serves a purpose in the formation of Christian thinking. The rituals in the Law revealed Christ who was to come. But now we have Christ. On the other hand? The need for understanding the civil law aspect has not been removed, because we still find ourselves living in the world. After all. The civil aspects of the Law were for the UNBELIEVER living in Israel. We can learn God's attitude towards certain crimes and national security that way.
Paul was a Law abiding Jew... He even stated he never taught against the Torah.
Yes, there is much lack of wisdom all the way around. We all struggle with a need for greater wisdom to some degree.”genez” said:And, we who are in charge of our own life are also show a lack of wisdom.
When Jesus said to love our enemies? He was not speaking of enemies to the nation, nor a criminal wishing to possibly kill you.
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ Mat 10:34-36
We are to love our personal enemies. A criminal raping ones wife should not be loved, but harmed badly to make him stop. That is... if one truly loves his wife. Some would turn Henny Youngman in that situation.
If we are to have God's wisdom to guide us, we must break free of our focus on ours individual selves. Only then can we begin to understand and find God's way of dealing with our problems.
Since the sin of Adam, man has been born with an exaggerated focus toward himself which tends to obscure his focus toward God and spiritual things. That self-centered focus causes us to have difficulty thinking outside the box of our self to find the wisdom of God. For example, when we read texts like 1 Corinthians 6:19, due to our self-focused fallen nature most of us tend to think of this as speaking of our individual body. But, while what is said does affect how we should use our individual bodies, is that verse really referring to our personal individual body as a temple of God and if not, then, when and how are we made holy? Is our personal body presently able to be a temple to God as was and is the holy body of Jesus Christ. To answer that question we must look at what it was about Christ's life which enabled him to be holy and have God to dwell in his body by spirit to compare how we measure up with him. Can we really say as Paul, “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” (Galatians 2:20) About his way, Jesus said:
(1) John 5:19b "... what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."
(2) John 5:30b "... I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
(3) John 8:28b "... I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."
(Added Note: Do not dismiss those above verses by false rationalizations. Take notice that Jesus is there speaking as the Son of God and sharing valuable information with you concerning what it means to be a son of God. If you would also be a son of God, listen to Jesus.)
How do we as an individual personally score as to our imitating Jesus' way in the above texts? What were the effects of Jesus' doing things that way in Jesus' life? Was not how Jesus lived what made and kept him holy? Hebrews 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." The effects were that Jesus remained without sin and that is why God could dwell with Jesus, by spirit, in Jesus' body. Jesus was holy, having committed no sin: 1 Peter 2:22a “Who did no sin ...”
Some people clamor that a man or woman is forgiven his or her sins and attributed righteousness by professing to have faith in Jesus Christ. They then also clamor that this is why God is able to dwell with us in our individual bodies even as God dwells with Jesus in Jesus' body. They believe that Christ's death offsets any unholiness on our part past, present, and future.
The Scriptures do tell us that God will not dwell “with” unholiness, and certainly not “in” anything rendered unholy by sin:
Psalms 5:4 “For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.”
Psalms 101:6 “Mine eyes shall be upon the faithful of the land, that they may dwell with me: he that walketh in a perfect way, he shall serve me.”
Indeed, it is true that God will not dwell with anything unholy. But is it the mere professing with our lips of faith in Jesus that saves us? Or, is it the emulation of Jesus's ways in our life which saves us? After all, Jesus is “the way, the truth, and the life.” (John 14:6) (Compare: Psalms 15)
Romans 5:16 “And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification.” Many a mistaken preacher cites Ephesians 2:8-9 but misapply it. Ephesians 2:8-9 must be taken in the same thought as Romans 5:6 above. The point pure and simple is that we were dead by one man's (Adam's) sin and having no righteousness of God passed to us of Adam it was impossible that we could earn salvation ourselves. Therefore God provided us the free gift of his Son as our ransom to buy us back from that death which was fallen on us of Adam. To make matters worse, these carnal minded preachers have absolutely no real wisdom nor understanding of what Jesus Christ did and is doing and what our part in cooperation with him is if we would be saved. They are leading the many blindly to hell. You are saved in Christ by allowing your old man of flesh to die with Christ and then by the power of God's spirit (not your own power for you to brag about) rising to live only the life that is Christ. And that does not happen by merely saying, “I believe.” If it does not happen it is because you have not really given yourself fully to die with Christ. Thus you have really given God nothing to raise from death as your old man keeps trying to hold claim to the corrupt flesh as though it is life.
You either want truth or you want your way. If you want truth, ponder the things I have pointed out to you in this post against the Scriptures and if you have questions or objections, assert them. Put me to the test to see if God has or has not given me the wisdom to answer you and be willing to consider what is replied to you. And remember, if I did not consider what you say I would not be able to answer you.
Your personal body cannot be God's temple. If you think that it can you have the cart positioned ahead of the horse. It is not until the following is fulfilled that God can dwell with any of us as individuals: Revelation 21:3 "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." But you claim to have God with you now? It is the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who is with you now if it be that you are dead and your life hidden with Christ while you rise by holy spirit to walk his life rather than your own. Until you reach perfection your only sharing with God is in Christ, for his body is God's temple. The life given your flesh now is a mere token of what will be so that you can be like a cell in Christ's body.
Notice how "you" and your "mortal bodies" are spoken of as two separate things in the following verse: Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Notice that first is God's spirit dwelling in “you” and then God, “shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit ...” God is already dwelling in the one called, “you”, but our individual bodies are yet dead because God has not yet but “shall” as in future tense, “also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit ...” Also, how is it possible that the "you" and the "yours" have "mortal bodies", plural?
It is because the "you" and the "yours" refers to the "one new man" of Ephesians 2:15 which we together by one spirit in Christ, are. If we truly be together in Christ letting his one life be ours (paralleling Adam's one life having been ours), by having lain our individual bodies of flesh born of Adam down in death with Christ, along with the old passions and desires which formerly acted upon us to impair the wisdom of our minds, then God gives a token of life to our mortal bodies which he is able to do because now living the life of Christ our bodies are no longer our own and are no longer being presented by us as unholy slaves to sin, thus enabling God to have a sharing with us in Christ.
And so at present it is only Christ's body of which we are mere members which is able to be that holy temple of God. It cannot be our mortal bodies lest you claim that God's temple is imperfect. God's temple must be perfect as God is perfect for he cannot dwell in anything imperfect. That which is imperfect is also unholy. We must reach full perfection before our individual bodies can be a temples of God. At that point in time we will have put on the full stature of Christ, being completely transformed to his image. 2 Corinthians 3:18 “But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”; 1 Corinthians 15:49 “And as we have borne the [corrupted] image of the earthy, we shall also bear the [perfect] image of the heavenly.”; 1 Corinthians 15:22 “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”
Take another bit of time and think about what John told us, as follows:
1 John 3:6-10
6 "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
Sin is clear evidence that we are not in Jesus Christ because sin proves we have not lain our old man down in death as we were admonished to do in order that we be able to rise to the life of Christ with him. We cannot have true godly wisdom, even if we think we have, if we have been mistaken that we are in Christ for failing to understand what is required to be in him. And that means that our old wisdom is yet misleading us. It would be better to humbly choose to make no decision concerning certain critically important things than to be misled by our carnal wisdom so that we add sin to sin.
An additional note on Romans 8:11, which verse was mentioned earlier, is speaking about giving our mortal bodies a measure of life now as members of Christ's body that we be able to function like organs in his body, and life to the full in the future. (Compare: 1 Timothy 4:8) The future resurrection to life is only possible because having lain our bodies down in death with Christ we have satisfied the appointed once to die which Paul mentions at Hebrews 9:27. To not lay our bodies down in death with Christ is to keep living for our flesh and the results will be death with no hope of redemption. This is because our literal death will then have to be the payment for our sins and that payment cannot be received back. However, if our sins are payed for now by our submitting to a voluntary death with Christ, his death is then the payment for our sins, leaving us free of God's wrath and our bodies able to be resurrected of God at the future time for it.
If we would receive salvation the wisdom for understanding anything has to begin by learning correctly what it means to have faith and actually be in Christ.
This verse is very intriguing.Really? ... You mean to tell me that he wanted Peter to stop having a sword right after Jesus told them to purchase one if they did not already have a sword?
Like I said. "Sloppy thinking."
This verse is very intriguing.
It appears to say one thing, but we must also account for one other factor: some words or phrases can be suggestive as meaning the opposite by the WAY it is said. Hear me out a sec....
If I looked at you and said "you'd best go out and buy a gun" whilst nodding my head up and down and slightly closing one eye, you would think I mean business.
But if I said the same phrase whilst shaking my head in a "no" fashion and raised my voice then you might see that I was exaggerating to make an issue. In others words like "if you really think you need a gun and that it will save you, then just go ahead and buy one". Now in that context it has a completely different meaning. Inflection is lost in literary works, so that makes interpretation difficult. But we can also see that this style is also evident in the parables of Jesus.
Honestly, do you think our Father wants us to use deadly force upon another? C'mon...
Re-read the sermon on the mount.
Honestly, do you think our Father wants us to use deadly force upon another? C'mon...
Re-read the sermon on the mount.
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