Christians Over Here Please

[ALRAJY]

Hi. I'd just like to say that getting to know what the Trinity means is not easily explained.. some might give some good and easy explanations, but it takes some patience.
1+1+1=3
1x1x1=1
Anyway, our math terms obviously becomes insufficient when it comes to this. We are not polytheists.

Are we Calculating GOD Here

Try and think of the trinity this way:
You have a body, a mind and a spirit. But you are still one being. Same with God.

But they have different Identities, and each One represents a Specific property that Doesn't relate for the Other. You won't Mix you Leg for your Hand, will you ?

Examples:

* If you Hurt your Body (E.g Fracture), you will Not be able to think, and the Only thing your Mind will be thinking of is How to Get Rid-of the Pain.

* If someone dies in your Family, you will be Sad & Depressed (Spirit), Less talkative & Less active (Body) Can we say that when the Son was Crying on the Cross, that the Father & Holy Spirit were also in Pain & Crying becuase they are One

* Also another Example, My Shoes consists Of a Lace, a Base & a Cover. Same with God

you're thinking like a human

When I use my Mind you say "Ur thinking like a Human" and when I use my Heart I dont get answers to my Questions. What a Logic

Kind Regards

 

[seed757]

you're thinking like a human

What, are we supposed to think like rabbits or something? Seriously, if God did not intend for us to think as humans, why are we not of a different order of His creation?

 

[saladin1970]

What, are we supposed to think like rabbits or something? Seriously, if God did not intend for us to think as humans, why are we not of a different order of His creation?

lol ,
i totally agree.
what is the point of sending a messenger to guide humanity if what he delivers isn't supposed to be understood, or is a mystery.

kind of defeats the purpose

 

[ReBjorn]

Are we Calculating GOD Here

Well, yes and no. Some people seem to want to approach these things that way, they are very 'analytical.' It's just an analogy I've seen somewhere. I'm not 'calculating God', I just wanted to say that our God is One. Sorry if that was a bad approach : )

 

[elijah115]

What, are we supposed to think like rabbits or something? Seriously, if God did not intend for us to think as humans, why are we not of a different order of His creation?

What is impossible with man is possible with God? Explaining spiritual truths isn't done by science or philosphical explanations - trying to ascribe perfection to God based on carnal perceptions of the perfect human being is invalid. God's perfection comes from his divinity, holiness, sovereignity and creative power. What is strange to me is that you arguing about topics I didn't address. In no way did I say it was an incomprehensible mystery. I was merely implying that unless you have faith, you would look at God in the flesh, and misunderstand God in the spirit.

 

[elijah115]

So these definitions do apply.

That being said, How can the perfect, omnipresent holy ghost, enter the perfect omnipresent Jesus?

Jesus was without sin and there's more that could be said about him. At present I don't see the point in saying anything more, since you speak about Jesus without understanding the trinity.

 

[Clodpate]

Jesus was without sin and there's more that could be said about him. At present I don't see the point in saying anything more, since you speak about Jesus without understanding the trinity.

Elijah,

This is why the Christian concept of the Trinity absolutetly sounds contrived to me. When I ask people about the specific nature of God, I can get simple and straight answers from Jews, Muslims, Pagans, Deists, even the Mormon Godhead makes more sense then this.

When I try to get the specifics of the Christian Trinity, it always ends up with the explanation that I simply cannot understand the Trinity. That it's a mystery and that I am thinking too much like a human.

Well of course I am thinking like a human! Did God not gift us with logic? Why then, can I not use these gifts to perceive the creator?

You once told me this;

perfect in the biblical sense = without sin

One of Hebrew word for "perfect" is tamyim. The definition would be as follows;

1) complete, whole, entire, sound
a) complete, whole, entire
b) whole, sound, healthful
c) complete, entire (of time)
d) sound, wholesome, unimpaired, innocent, having integrity
e) what is complete or entirely in accord with truth and fact (neuter adj/subst)

It occurs 91 times. The KJV translates the word as "perfect" 18 times, without blemish 44 times, whole 4 times, etc, etc.

Yet another word that can imply "perfection" in the biblical sense is Shalem, and it is defined as follows;

1) complete, safe, peaceful, perfect, whole, full, at peace
a) complete
1) full, perfect
2) finished
b) safe, unharmed
c) peace (of covenant of peace, mind)
1) perfect, complete (of keeping covenant relation)

This word occurs 27 times in the KJV, 19 times it is translated as perfect, 4 times as whole, twice as full, etc, etc

There are a few other hebrew words for perfect, and they all come from the same root meaning, " Complete, whole,full, without blemish/mistake "


Greek wise, there is teleios, which means;

1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
a) consummate human integrity and virtue
b) of men
1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

it occurs 19 times, and 17 times it is translated as perfect.

Infact, here the word is being used....

[QUOTE Epheseians 4:13]
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
[/QUOTE]


So, the Dictionary definition of "perfect" from the dictionary does indeed, line up with the biblical use of "perfect".


So, my questions still remain Is each part of the Trinity perfect? and if so, how did the Holy Spirit enter Jesus?

 

[ALRAJY]

Hi. I'd just like to say that getting to know what the Trinity means is not easily explained.. some might give some good and easy explanations, but it takes some patience.
1+1+1=3
1x1x1=1
Anyway, our math terms obviously becomes insufficient when it comes to this. We are not polytheists

I Can Get you Out of This Trouble. Hummm
Let's say:

1x1x1=1
1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1​

Can I a Get a Bishop Rank Now Just Kidding


More Examples:

* If Jesus (pbuh) is part of a divine Trinity which makes up the essence of GOD Almighty, and if this GOD is ONE GOD and not THREE GODs, and if Jesus (pbuh) died on the cross, then what happened to God Almighty?

* Did the Trinity die also, or was a third of the Trinity ripped away from the whole, then tortured, killed, and sent to hell for 3 days, while the remaining two thirds of God? remained in it's crippled form a safe distance away?

* Who was overseeing the heavens and the earth while all of this was happening? A crippled Trinity? No one?

* If I am made up of Heart, Mind, and Soul, and one of them dies; what happens to the rest of me? Are they ONE or THREE?

* If God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are three names for the same being, and not three separate gods, then "The Death of Jesus" is just another way of saying "The death of God the 'Father'" which is also another way of saying "The death of the Holy Ghost"

* Most Importantly is to remember that My Shoes consists Of a Lace, a Base & a Cover. Same with God

Kind Regards

 

[cheelonos]

They are not one .
They have the same objective, same wisdom but different role in the salvation of human kind .
And yes its ok .
Its in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit .

You know, coming from an outside source, this sounds suspiciously like polytheism. Throw in an evil entity (deity, i.e. Satan) and you've got the making of your very own Christian pantheon.

 

[peaceful soul]

can anyone else smell the bait?

I saw it when I read the title. It appears to be a means of diverting the attention away from the thread entitled with a similar name which questions Muslims. Furthermore, this topic is rather silly if that same person read the other 2 or 3 threads that are currently discussing this same issue.

 

[Exegete12]

The kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power – 1 Cor 4: 20.

What is that power?

"Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst ..." Acts 2: 22.

The Son of God for a period of about 33 years became the Son of Man. This was His redemptive role. That is why He said "I can of Myself do nothing; as I hear, I judge (John 5:30). As the Son of Man explained in the gospels was to show the manifestations of the humanity of Jesus.

He prays to God as His Father, and gives thanks that His prayer is always heard (John 11:41). The will of God is throughout the background of His mission to the world. Consecrated and sent by the Father (Jn 10:36), He speaks only those things which He has seen and heard of Him, or, as it is mentioned in John 8:25 "as the Father has taught me".

Knowledge and power equally are mediated through the Spirit. "He that has sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone; for I do always the things that are pleasing to Him (Jn 8:29) and again "therefore does the Father love Me, because I lay down My life" (Jn 10:17).

His form of Sonship are now under the conditions of human experience as the Son of Man. Now the subordination, if you like, of Jesus is expressed as purely ethical. "even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love (Jn 15:10), and who, in another place and time, is presented as entreating the Father to glorify Him with the glory which had seen Him before the world was (Jn 17: 5). These are metaphysical attributes relating to time and place.

For instance, I was once a child, but now I am an adult. I can talk about myself as a child by reflecting back in time of what once was. But in eternity I will always be a Child of God. We can only be children of God only by the new birth of what Jesus did; Jesus is the Son of God by eternal nature.

In the beginning He has been the Word with the Father (Jn 1:1, Gen 1:1).

And still more: "I speak the things which I have seen with My Father", "no man has ascended into heaven, but He that descended out of heaven."

He speaks to the Father of 'the glory which I had with Thee before the world was' (Jn 17:5).

'Believe thou not?' Jesus asks 'that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The words that I say unto you I speak, not from Myself: but the Father abiding in Me does His works" (Jn 14: 10)

 

[peaceful soul]

What, are we supposed to think like rabbits or something? Seriously, if God did not intend for us to think as humans, why are we not of a different order of His creation?

I think that what he means is that human logic, wisdom, and understanding alone can not tell you about the things of God. You need God Himself, The Holy Spirit, to give you what your human mind can not comprehend or understand. This is the principle around which Christians can get fuller understanding of the Bible. If you read the Bible from a perspective like reading a diary or a science book, you will not get it. That does not mean that you won't get some of it though.

 

[peaceful soul]

You know, coming from an outside source, this sounds suspiciously like polytheism. Throw in an evil entity (deity, i.e. Satan) and you've got the making of your very own Christian pantheon.

That is precisely why we don't see it that way. That is because we aren't outsiders. We have the spiritual understanding of what we speak. We grasp it well enough to know what it is not, i.e., 3 gods or multimodalism, for example.

All we can do is try to relate to you by using human examples to get the point accross. In most cases, this does nothing but harbor even more misunderstanding - not all because we don't know how to explain it, but some of it because the non-Christian will try to rely totally upon human logic to describe God. No matter which analogy we use, the non-Christian usually focuses on the limitations of the analogy rather than the essence of it. Does that make any sense to you?

 

[ALRAJY]

"Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst ..." Acts 2: 22.

Is your faith Greater than that Of Paul?
Paul said Jesus was a MAN, not GOD, not a Manifested GOD, and all the Miracles Jesus Did were Granted from GOD Almighty so the people might believe that He is sent by GOD, as what? As a Karate player, as a Racer, as Horse Rider? No as a Messenger of GOD to deliver His Messages. Further more, we see that Jesus confirms these claims in (John 5:30)"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me" There are two Will's, a Superior One "GOD's Will" & an Inferior One "Son's will" and when the Father says something, the Son should Comply, becuase He is always trying to please His Father.

The Son of God for a period of about 33 years became the Son of Man. This was His redemptive role. That is why He said "I can of Myself do nothing; as I hear, I judge (John 5:30). As the Son of Man explained in the gospels was to show the manifestations of the humanity of Jesus.

Is He the Only Son Of GOD? and Where in the Bible Jesus HimSelf says a Clear Statment that "Iam GOD manifested in Flesh" Please dont get me an Assumptive verses.

He prays to God as His Father, and gives thanks that His prayer is always heard

What part of this statement you don't Understand? He prays & dedicate His prayers to Someone else.. Or does He Pray for Himself? When you say thank you, do you say it for Someone else Or to yourself? Becuase if you say it to yourself, it should be "Thank me", otherwise you should Check the Doctor becuase you will be suffering from "Schizophrenia"

He speaks only those things which He has seen and heard of Him, or, as it is mentioned in John 8:25 "as the Father has taught me"

Also Here, He is always Differentiating between two entities

Knowledge and power equally are mediated through the Spirit. "He that has sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone; for I do always the things that are pleasing to Him (Jn 8:29) and again "therefore does the Father love Me, because I lay down My life" (Jn 10:17)

Again here, there is ONE who Sends, and ONE who is Being Sent, and that ONE is always doing things that Pleases that Superior ONE & to fulfill His Job properly,and this applies to the Prophets of GOD.

His form of Sonship are now under the conditions of human experience as the Son of Man

Again is He the Only Son Of GOD, and what does mean of being Son Of GOD?

For instance, I was once a child, but now I am an adult. I can talk about myself as a child by reflecting back in time of what once was. But in eternity I will always be a Child of God. We can only be children of God only by the new birth of what Jesus did; Jesus is the Son of God by eternal nature

What is Difference when I say "He is my Child" & "He is my Son"

In the beginning He has been the Word with the Father (Jn 1:1, Gen 1:1)

So He had a Begining, and was Created like other Creatures. Refer to Genesis 1:6-8 "And GOD said"

And still more: "I speak the things which I have seen with My Father", "no man has ascended into heaven, but He that descended out of heaven" He speaks to the Father of 'the glory which I had with Thee before the world was' (Jn 17:5)

Also here, He is insisting on that there is a Father & a Son, Separate entities, One who Has the Glory, and One who was Created & waiting to be Glorified.

Kind Regards

 

[ALRAJY]

 

[NOTW]

Alrajy, can you read arabic?

 

[elijah115]

Elijah,

This is why the Christian concept of the Trinity absolutetly sounds contrived to me. When I ask people about the specific nature of God, I can get simple and straight answers from Jews, Muslims, Pagans, Deists, even the Mormon Godhead makes more sense then this.

When I try to get the specifics of the Christian Trinity, it always ends up with the explanation that I simply cannot understand the Trinity. That it's a mystery and that I am thinking too much like a human.

Well of course I am thinking like a human! Did God not gift us with logic? Why then, can I not use these gifts to perceive the creator?

You once told me this;



One of Hebrew word for "perfect" is tamyim. The definition would be as follows;



It occurs 91 times. The KJV translates the word as "perfect" 18 times, without blemish 44 times, whole 4 times, etc, etc.

Yet another word that can imply "perfection" in the biblical sense is Shalem, and it is defined as follows;



This word occurs 27 times in the KJV, 19 times it is translated as perfect, 4 times as whole, twice as full, etc, etc

There are a few other hebrew words for perfect, and they all come from the same root meaning, " Complete, whole,full, without blemish/mistake "


Greek wise, there is teleios, which means;


it occurs 19 times, and 17 times it is translated as perfect.

Infact, here the word is being used....




So, the Dictionary definition of "perfect" from the dictionary does indeed, line up with the biblical use of "perfect".


So, my questions still remain Is each part of the Trinity perfect? and if so, how did the Holy Spirit enter Jesus?

God is perfect.

 

[NOTW]

Is your faith Greater than that Of Paul?
Paul said Jesus was a MAN, not GOD, not a Manifested GOD, and all the Miracles Jesus Did were Granted from GOD Almighty so the people might believe that He is sent by GOD, as what? As a Karate player, as a Racer, as Horse Rider? No as a Messenger of GOD to deliver His Messages. Further more, we see that Jesus confirms these claims in (John 5:30)"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me" There are two Will's, a Superior One "GOD's Will" & an Inferior One "Son's will" and when the Father says something, the Son should Comply, becuase He is always trying to please His Father.

Is He the Only Son Of GOD? and Where in the Bible Jesus HimSelf says a Clear Statment that "Iam GOD manifested in Flesh" Please dont get me an Assumptive verses.

What part of this statement you don't Understand? He prays & dedicate His prayers to Someone else.. Or does He Pray for Himself? When you say thank you, do you say it for Someone else Or to yourself? Becuase if you say it to yourself, it should be "Thank me", otherwise you should Check the Doctor becuase you will be suffering from "Schizophrenia"

Also Here, He is always Differentiating between two entities

Again here, there is ONE who Sends, and ONE who is Being Sent, and that ONE is always doing things that Pleases that Superior ONE & to fulfill His Job properly,and this applies to the Prophets of GOD.

Again is He the Only Son Of GOD, and what does mean of being Son Of GOD?

What is Difference when I say "He is my Child" & "He is my Son"

So He had a Begining, and was Created like other Creatures. Refer to Genesis 1:6-8 "And GOD said"

Also here, He is insisting on that there is a Father & a Son, Separate entities, One who Has the Glory, and One who was Created & waiting to be Glorified.

Kind Regards

I'll try to explain this both ways, in Arabic and in English.
So, bare with me a little.

يجب ان تفهم وتميز حينما يتكلم المسيح بلاهوتيته وبناسوته. ففي بعض الحالات يتكلم المسيح بلاهوته (عندما يشفي انا&#1587 أو يتكلم بناسوته (حينما كان علي الصلي&#1576ء​

As you might know, Jesus had two natures (Divine and Human). He speaks through each one as the situation requires. For example, when He healed someone he said: "Your faith has healed you!"
No one can say that except God!
But when He was on the cross, He said: "My God, my God, why have You forsaken me" which came from his human nature​

 

[S Walch]

I also take what he said on the cross as his final message to people that Psalm 22 is also a prophecy about HIM. Those near him would have known Psalm 22, and have realised what he meant when he quoted from it.

 

[NOTW]

I also take what he said on the cross as his final message to people that Psalm 22 is also a prophecy about HIM. Those near him would have known Psalm 22, and have realised what he meant when he quoted from it.

I agree.
Psalm 22​

1 My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
[Why are You] so far from my deliverance
and from my words of groaning? 2 My God, I cry by day, but You do not answer,
by night, yet I have no rest. 3 But You are holy,
enthroned on the praises of Israel. 4 Our fathers trusted in You;
they trusted, and You rescued them. 5 They cried to You and were set free;
they trusted in You and were not disgraced. </I>6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by people. 7 Everyone who sees me mocks me;
they sneer and shake their heads: 8 ";He relies on the Lord;
let Him rescue him;
let the Lord deliver him,
since He takes pleasure in him."; 9 You took me from the womb,
making me secure while at my mother's breast. 10 I was given over to You at birth;
You have been my God from my mother's womb.

11 Do not be far from me, because distress is near
and there is no one to help. 12 Many bulls surround me;
strong ones of Bashan encircle me. 13 They open their mouths against me-
lions, mauling and roaring. 14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are disjointed;
my heart is like wax,
melting within me. 15 My strength is dried up like baked clay;
my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth.
You put me into the dust of death. 16 For dogs have surrounded me;
a gang of evildoers has closed in on me;
they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I can count all my bones;
people look and stare at me. 18 They divided my garments among themselves,
and they cast lots for my clothing. 19 But You, Lord, don't be far away.
My strength, come quickly to help me. 20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my very life from the power of the dog. 21 Save me from the mouth of the lion!
You have rescued me
from the horns of the wild oxen.
22 I will proclaim Your name to my brothers;
I will praise You in the congregation. 23 You who fear the Lord, praise Him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor Him!
All you descendants of Israel, revere Him! 24 For He has not despised or detested
the torment of the afflicted.
He did not hide His face from him,
but listened when he cried to Him for help. 25 I will give praise in the great congregation
because of You;
I will fulfill my vows
before those who fear You. 26 The humble will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise Him.
May your hearts live forever! 27 All the ends of the earth will remember
and turn to the Lord.
All the families of the nations
will bow down before You, 28 for kingship belongs to the Lord;
He rules over the nations. 29 All who prosper on earth will eat and bow down;
all those who go down to the dust
will kneel before Him-
even the one who cannot preserve his life. 30 Descendants will serve Him;
the next generation will be told about the Lord. 31 They will come and tell a people yet to be born
about His righteousness-
what He has done.

It was like Jesus telling them to read Psalm 22 because they were fulfilling the prophecy.​