Christians.. desecrating the Sabbath

[LittleLambofJesus]

Gal 4:30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

Did ya notice that same form of the greek word "cast" is used in reve 11:2

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matt 7:5 Hypocrite! Be casting-out/ekbale <1544> (5628) first the beam out of thy eye, and then thou shall be thru-beholding to be casting-out the speck out of the eye of thy brother

Reve 11:2 and the court, the without of the sanctuary, be Casting-Out/ekbale <1544> (5628)! out-side, and thou mayest not be measuring her, that she was given to the nations, and the city/ the holy they shall be trampling forty and two months

 

[Alethes]

ahh the good old shadow/reality issue.

note to everyone the shadows are coming, future tense in the greek. The reality is of course found in Messiah, but so is everything including you and me.

You are misinforming the readers with what you have stated in your post. That the "shadow" are coming is in the future tense according to the Greek, is incorrect. The things mention in verse 16 of Col 2, are only a "shadow" of "the things" to come.

Verse 17 -- Which (meat, drinks, sabbath days, etc.), are [present tense] a shadow of things to come [present, active, participle]--- these things being on the point or in the process of coming, but have not yet come to pass. The shadow is not the actual thing itself, but the body is of Christ - the one spiritual body, of which Christians are all members/limbs, belonging to Christ, Christ's body is the true substance/reality.

These things, which are a shadow, were applicable during the old covenant period looking forward to the coming of the Christ and his accomplishments, but they are not relevant to any Christian because we have the things-themselves in Christ. We holy-people are Christ’s body spiritually.

Consider this: if Christians are to keep the Sabbath, should they not keep the whole Law? In Galatians 5:3, Paul says just that, substituting circumcision as the part of the Law in question. Take a good look at verses 1-15 in order to get the whole context, and to see what Paul (writing by revelation) thinks about Christians being put under any part of the old Mosaic Law. If we are to keep the Sabbath, what about animal sacrifice to worship God?

 

[JudgeEden]

While the moral code of the ten commandments is reccomended for Christians to follow, we are not obligated to follow any of the Law. If we do make any part of the Law an obligation, we are to follow all of the Law. But the Law never saved anyone.

Why do some Christians remind others to honor their father and mother, or some of the other commandments. But when the Sabbath is mentioned they say "We are not obligated" do you guys say that out of laziness?

I dont mean to be rude, but thats what it seems like. Of course none of us never always kept the Sabbath, probably never at all. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't start.

Remember this little verse?

Matthew 5:17-19
"17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."



There is also this verse:


Revelation 12:16-17

"17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

You cannot ignore those scriptures that easily. Yeah, I know, its not that convenient to keep the Sabbath. But I think you guys can survive without turning on an oven for a day.

 

[mont974x4]

The Sabbath, unlike the other 9 Commandments, is never commanded to the NT Church. It has nothing to do with laziness. It has to do with what Scripture actually says and what is and is not required of us.

 

[mont974x4]

You are misinforming the readers with what you have stated in your post. That the "shadow" are coming is in the future tense according to the Greek, is incorrect. The things mention in verse 16 of Col 2, are only a "shadow" of "the things" to come.

Verse 17 -- Which (meat, drinks, sabbath days, etc.), are [present tense] a shadow of things to come [present, active, participle]--- these things being on the point or in the process of coming, but have not yet come to pass. The shadow is not the actual thing itself, but the body is of Christ - the one spiritual body, of which Christians are all members/limbs, belonging to Christ, Christ's body is the true substance/reality.

These things, which are a shadow, were applicable during the old covenant period looking forward to the coming of the Christ and his accomplishments, but they are not relevant to any Christian because we have the things-themselves in Christ. We holy-people are Christ’s body spiritually.

Consider this: if Christians are to keep the Sabbath, should they not keep the whole Law? In Galatians 5:3, Paul says just that, substituting circumcision as the part of the Law in question. Take a good look at verses 1-15 in order to get the whole context, and to see what Paul (writing by revelation) thinks about Christians being put under any part of the old Mosaic Law. If we are to keep the Sabbath, what about animal sacrifice to worship God?

I slightly overcooked my t-bone on Monday, does that count?

 

[JudgeEden]

Here's an excerpt from the article, "The Grace of Christ and the Law of Moses" located in the recently published Orthodox Study Bible, p. 90 (Thomas Nelson, 2008):



The Law was given for a purpose, which has now been fulfilled in Christ. We are no longer bound to the letter of the law, but it was given to make us aware of our disobedience, or difficulty to be obedient to God. We now have the Holy Spirit as an aid to convict us. Keeping the Sabbath was a rule created to show man how hard obedience is for us. Now the Holy Spirit shows us that, so the keeping of the Sabbath is no longer a legalistic rule we must follow. Instead we celebrate the Lord's Day as holy, since it was the day of the week God chose to be raised from the dead. It's a celebration of the victorious Christ who destroyed death for us, so that we could be received into Heaven.

Basil

Now you make sense! I thank God for your insight, I just about had an epiphany while reading that.

 

[Alethes]

I slightly overcooked my t-bone on Monday, does that count?

What counts is the rightly-divided Word of Truth.

 

[JudgeEden]

if you're in the UK, you're more than welcome to come round to my house and share some bread and wine. You are even more welcome to come round on friday evening when we have a houseful. My wife bakes a classical challah bread (often with bits of fruit in) and we are never (and i mean never) short of bottles of rioja (though last week we had a chardonnay - white wine - very unusual).

I like red wines, particularly spanish ones.

buyt seriously if you are in the UK, or ever find yourself here in my small part, you are more than welcome to come to my house and share in my legalism. There is real food too (but as you can guess clean foods only).

Steve

p.s. in essentials unity, in everything else, charity.

If i have offended anyone I apologise, I can get quite worked up discussing things that really interest me.

p.p.s. for littlelamb, technically I am not messianic. I keep shabbat, observe the dietary laws and remember the festivals, I also attend a congregation of fellow charismatics on sunday mornings, but for me, the sabbath is my day of rest.

let me close with a prayer we (and most jews) pray every friday evening, feel free to amen it at the end if you agree

"the children of Israel shall keep the shabbat, observing it throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever. for in six days HaShem made the heavens and the earth and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.

And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one shabbat to another, all flesh shall come and worship before me, says HaShem.

Blessed are You, HaShem our God and God of our fathers. God of Abraham God of Isaac and God of Jacob. The great and might and awesome God, the most high God, who bestows grace and creates all and remembers the kindnesses of the fathers and brings redemption to their children's children, for His name's sake with love.

O King, helper, saviour and shield, blessed are you HaShem, shield of Abraham, You o Lord are mighty forever. You raise the dead, you are mighty to save.....

God bless you Cyberlizard. I dont know why but I got a good feeling inside when you told the other user they could join you. I got not hint of sarcasm either.

 

[tulc]

You cannot ignore those scriptures that easily. Yeah, I know, its not that convenient to keep the Sabbath. But I think you guys can survive without turning on an oven for a day.

Uhmmm or drive an internal combustion engine either? Because wouldn't that also be considered "starting a fire"?
tulc(not sure where people draw the line)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

buyt seriously if you are in the UK, or ever find yourself here in my small part, you are more than welcome to come to my house and share in my legalism. There is real food too (but as you can guess clean foods only).

I also sometimes wash raw pork and poultry and seafood before I cook them

 

[JudgeEden]

Revelation 14:12 is not about the Jews but the saints. Jesus went to the Jews first because of the 70 week prophecy. The Jews did not fulfill what they were supposed to in the appointed time because they rejected Jesus and thus the message was taken to the Gentiles. The focus in Revelation is not the jews. God's people are not characteristed by nationality but by acceptance of him.

I am very impressed with your knowledge. You know things I didnt even have a clue of at 19.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

You are misinforming the readers with what you have stated in your post. That the "shadow" are coming is in the future tense according to the Greek, is incorrect. The things mention in verse 16 of Col 2, are only a "shadow" of "the things" to come.

Verse 17 -- Which (meat, drinks, sabbath days, etc.), are [present tense] a shadow of things to come [present, active, participle]--- these things being on the point or in the process of coming, but have not yet come to pass. The shadow is not the actual thing itself, but the body is of Christ - the one spiritual body, of which Christians are all members/limbs, belonging to Christ, Christ's body is the true substance/reality.

These things, which are a shadow, were applicable during the old covenant period looking forward to the coming of the Christ and his accomplishments, but they are not relevant to any Christian because we have the things-themselves in Christ. We holy-people are Christ’s body spiritually.

Consider this: if Christians are to keep the Sabbath, should they not keep the whole Law? In Galatians 5:3, Paul says just that, substituting circumcision as the part of the Law in question. Take a good look at verses 1-15 in order to get the whole context, and to see what Paul (writing by revelation) thinks about Christians being put under any part of the old Mosaic Law. If we are to keep the Sabbath, what about animal sacrifice to worship God?

Well then can you read post #229 and #248 and tell me your views on how I believe the bible explains those shadows.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Why do some Christians remind others to honor their father and mother, or some of the other commandments. But when the Sabbath is mentioned they say "We are not obligated" do you guys say that out of laziness?

I dont mean to be rude, but thats what it seems like. Of course none of us never always kept the Sabbath, probably never at all. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't start.

Remember this little verse?

Matthew 5:17-19
"17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."



There is also this verse:


Revelation 12:16-17

"17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

You cannot ignore those scriptures that easily. Yeah, I know, its not that convenient to keep the Sabbath. But I think you guys can survive without turning on an oven for a day.

Very good post.

Who made the Sabbath inconvenient to keep. The kingdom of Rome who was the 4th beast driven by the devil. Under their rule Sunday became a holiday and everyone except for farmers were ordered to rest on that day. Otherwise the Sabbath would be very convenient to keep.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

The Sabbath, unlike the other 9 Commandments, is never commanded to the NT Church. It has nothing to do with laziness. It has to do with what Scripture actually says and what is and is not required of us.

There is no direct recommand for Sabbath keeping in the new testament. But the practice is continued by Jesus who showed exactly how the Sabbath should be kept. The practice was upheld by the apostles and the early church. There are only two text that can be used to try to prove that the first day of the week was honoured. In both cases it is because of a special situation. History shows that the early church kept the Sabbath. Sabbath keeping began loosing popularity when Rome joined the church.

 

[tulc]

Sabbath keeping began loosing popularity when Rome joined the church.

...you mean as the Church stopped being an off shoot of Judaism and became what the Lord intended? A full on movement of it's own?
tulc(just a thought)

 

[PROPHECYKID]

...you mean as the Church stopped being an off shoot of Judaism and became what the Lord intended? A full on movement of it's own?
tulc(just a thought)

Tulc, did Paul predict that the church would become better or worse after his death?

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

The church got no better when Rome and the paganism which it brought joined the church. Just look at history. The church got corrupted by pagan practices.

 

[tulc]

Tulc, did Paul predict that the church would become better or worse after his death?

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

The church got no better when Rome and the paganism which it brought joined the church. Just look at history. The church got corrupted by pagan practices.

Soooo...Satan was stronger then the Lord?
tulc(that doesn't sound right)

 

[ThomasDa]

Some people think that Paul did away with the Sabbath and other biblical Holy Days when he wrote in Romans 14:5-6: that &#8220;One person esteems &#8220;one day&#8221; above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it&#8221;

They think that Paul is referring to God&#8217;s Sabbaths even though the Sabbath is not mentioned in thewhole book of Romans. Paul and the other New Testament writers did not call the Sabbath &#8220;one day.&#8221;
Did you know that Paul quotes from the Old Testament 84 times in this one letter to support his teaching.
He never thought for one moment of doing away with the Sabbath or any other of the Ten Commandments.

Paul, while in Corinth, &#8220;reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks&#8221; (Acts18:1, 4).
Did he write to the church in Rome to tell them Sabbath-keeping was irrelevant while teaching Jews and gentiles &#8220;every Sabbath&#8221; in Corinth? I don&#8217;t think so. No matter where Paul went, the book ofActs shows Paul&#8217;s custom was to keep the fourth commandment / Sabbath (Acts 17:2).

We can not make anything holy. Yet we are commanded to remember the Sabbath and to keep it holy. We can&#8217;t keep something holy that God has not made holy. If you look in Lev. 23:1-2 you will learn that, God calls His weekly Sabbath and annual Feast days His. They are notIsrael&#8217;s or the Jew&#8217;s. They are God&#8217;s

Our example is this: Follow it or not, it&#8217;s up to you.
Lk.4:16 So He (Jesus) came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.


Act. 17:1-2 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
Act. 13:42-44 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words mightbe preached to them the next Sabbath. (Now here was the perfect place for Paul to say, you don&#8217;t have to worry about that old Sabbath thing. I will meet with you tomorrow on the first day of the week.) 43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continuein the grace of God.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.
Act. 16:13 And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there.
Act. 18:4And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
Now in verse 11 we read that Paul lived there for a year and six months. Since he &#8220;reasoned in the synagogueevery Sabbath&#8221; that&#8217;s 78 weekly Sabbaths and about 10 annual Sabbaths.


Further proof that this common interpretation of Romans 14 is wrong can be found in Paul&#8217;s first epistle to the Corinthians. He wrote this epistle in or around A.D. 55, shortly beforehe came to Corinth (1 Corinthians 16:5-6) on the visit during which he would write his epistleto the Romans. What do we find he tells the Corinthians in this letter?
&#8226; He tells them to keep the biblical Feast of Unleavened Bread in the proper manner, understanding its spiritual intent (1 Corinthians 5:7-8; compare Leviticus 23:6). &#8226; He instructs them on how to keep the
New Testament Passover as a commemoration of Jesus Christ&#8217;s death (1 Corinthians 11:23-30).
&#8226; He reminds them that &#8220;Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us&#8221; (1 Corinthians 5:7).
&#8226; He writes that he intends to journey to them, but that he will first stay in Ephesus until after the biblical Feast of Pentecost has passed (1 Corinthians 16:8).

If you accept the common misinterpretation of the book of Romans, you would have to conclude that Paul instructed the Corinthians in how to properly observe the Passover, thathe told them to keep the biblical Feast of Unleavened Bread, and that he noted he was staying in Ephesus until after the biblical Feast of Pentecost&#8212;and the very next year wrote to the Romans that none of this mattered and was all unnecessary.
On the other hand, if you understand Paul&#8217;s teaching to the Romans as it is truthfully presented in this chapter, you will see complete agreement between his actions and the letters he wrote to Church members both in Rome and Corinth.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Soooo...Satan was stronger then the Lord?
tulc(that doesn't sound right)

No tulc. Would you say that satan was stronger when only 8 people were saved in the ark. Would you say satan was stronger when only 4 Hebrew boys remained faithful. Nice way to deter the idea i was sharing though.

 

[tulc]

No tulc. Would you say that satan was stronger when only 8 people were saved in the ark. Would you say satan was stronger when only 4 Hebrew boys remained faithful. Nice way to deter the idea i was sharing though.

Sorry, I always get a little nervous when people start suggesting the Church has been corrupted.
tulc(it's a pet peeve of mine, I hope I didn't offend you)