Christians.. desecrating the Sabbath

TheCheat1 · Jun 29, 2008

Visionary,

visionary said:
It is clearly the Ten Commandments that are in the New Covenant... Remember they were on stone and now are to be placed in the heart.

Verse?

visionary said:
You asked to be corrected..

Romans 1:10 is "Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you."

I believe you are speaking of Revelation 1:10

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"(Rosh HaShannah)

Which is talking about.... The great day of the Lord...

it is a Festival Shabbat or Shabbaton
Revelation 4

Scene in Heaven

1After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet (Rosh HaShannah)speaking with me, said, "Come up here, (Rosh HaShannah)and I will show you what must take place after these things." 2Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.(Rosh HaShahhah)

Let me explain a little about (Rosh HaShannah) the Feast of Trumpets. It is known as the Days of Awe, they are the first feasts in the fall. The books of life are opened and the judge does sit down to look them over. Each judgment decree is announced with a trumpet.

Revelation 5

The Book with Seven Seals

1I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.(Rosh HaShannah) 2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?" 3And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it;
5and one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals."
6And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.(Rosh HaShannah) 8When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song(Rosh HaShanah), saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10"You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

The Day of the Lord is = to the days of Awe which we celebrate as the High Holy Days all of them and even into Sukkot.

John was in a vision of what will be in the end days in all its powerful scenes and incredible truths.

No, that's the title Christians gave to Sunday. "Sunday", if I'm not mistaken, is named for a deity of some sort (Saturday = Saturn, no?).

John is saying, "I was in the Spirit on Sunday".

Acts 20:7, "Now on the first day of the week [that is, Sunday], when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight."

A website I found states,

"

Jesus rose on the first day (Sunday) Jesus was crucified on Friday and rose on the first day.
The Holy Spirit was given on Pentecost Acts 2:1, which always falls on a Sunday
Early Christians from 30-300AD referred to Sunday as the Lord's day BECAUSE it was the day Jesus rose from the dead.
The only example of the Lord's supper being practiced by Christians is in Acts 20:7, on Sunday. If this is not the Lord's supper, as Sabbatarians cannot grant, then there is no example in the Bible of Christians communing.
"Sunday" is only used in languages such as German, Dutch, and English, whereas Latin-based languages, such as Spanish, Italian, and French use a derivative of the Latin word "Dominica," literally "Lord's Day." So the very notion of the first day of the week having something to do with the sun depends on the language you speak. (Mario Derksen)

"

(http://www.bible.ca/7-lords-day.htm)

WailingWall said:
The sabbath was, and still is Friday evening till Saturday evening. How do we know for sure. Thats the sabbath day that Jesus kept. He was without sin.

My friend, Jesus' disciples willingly broke the Sabbath just to eat some heads of grain, and Jesus defended them!

Jesus of course kept the Sabbath, because He lived a Jewish life and fulfilled the whole Law.

Sincerely,

Joe

holo · Jun 29, 2008

visionary said:
It is clearly the Ten Commandments that are in the New Covenant... Remember they were on stone and now are to be placed in the heart.

No, the gentiles had "the demands of the law" written in their hearts all along. Paul says that the commandments engraved on stone is the ministry of death, that brings condemnation. God obviously doesn't engrave the ministry of death on people's hearts. The law was given to make sin exceedingly sinful and to make us all stand guilty. God certainly doesn't write "you're guilty" on the heart of a believer! He writes the exact opposite!

When you're born again, God doesn't write the ministry of death in your heart, but the law of liberty. When you're born again, it's not like you're some old sinner (which the law was for) who needs to be told not to steal. It's not like you need to remind Jesus to behave well...

holo · Jun 29, 2008

WailingWall said:
So how did this come about? How and why did Christians turn away from the written Word and keep the doctrines of man? We Christians were actually givin many warnings about these bad guys and what they would do. The warnings are all around the new testament.

Yes, and still it happens all the time, over and over again. It's because we have a tendency to try and justify ourselves. It's our tendency to eat the forbidden fruit and try and live according to the knowledge of good and evil, rather than the knowledge of righteousness. It's our religious tendency to try and live according to the letter instead of the Spirit.

And it ALWAYS, without exception, results in people being condemned. Either they condemn themselves, or, as is evident in this thread, those who believe they are actually keeping the law, condemn those who apparently don't.

If you instead had decided to live according to the Spirit and only according to the Spirit, and according to grace and the knowledge of righteousness, if you had decided to live according to the fact that Jesus Christ IS your rihgteousness (that your behaviour doesn't actually make you more or less righteous), then you wouldn't be able to condemn us. You wouldn't even be able to condemn yourself!

Yes, the bible warns us time and again to contend for the faith and NOT judge one another and NOT live according to the written code and NOT try and be justified by the law. Don't try and tell me that you don't think you are justified by keeping the law - because how in the world can I possibly be GUILTY of breaking the law, and cease to be guilty if I stopped breaking the law - unless rightoeusness actually came by keeping it?

God has never commanded me to observe the sabbath. Not once, ever. It was part of the law given to the jews, though. As for me, I simply have nothing to do with it - thankfully, since I have something GREATER THAN THE SABBATH. While you claim to keep it out of respect for God, you're all blind to the fact that I respect God too much to be dabbling with the shadows of things when I have the Reality of those shadows. I'll say it again - for me it would actually be SIN to observe the sabbath, because I couldn't do it in faith (I simply don't believe I'm supposed to live like a jew under the law), and it would be like trying to have a relationship with my fiance's old love letters instead of spending time with the one who wrote them.

visionary · Jun 29, 2008

2 Corinthians 3:3
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

You may not have realised that the epistle of Christ is the Ten Commandments. .. But Yeshua was the one on Mount Sinai giving the Ten Commandments of stone to Moses..
Acts 7:38
This is he [Yeshua], that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

If you haven't realised yet, the Ten Commandments are spiritual laws, and that is what makes them lively oracles. You know those same oracles that have been committed into the Jew's hands for keeping.

Romans 3: 1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

But if you do not know or practice them...

Hebrews 5:12
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

If fact our whole conversation is to be on the epistles of Christ or better known as the oracles of God or as you have mistakenly understood as the laws of the jews.

1 Peter 4:11
If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

New_Wineskin · Jun 29, 2008

quote from holo
And circumcision isn't God's commandment? It doesn't say "the keeping of the ten commandments", but "the keeping of the commandments of God." Doesn't it matter to you what God says, when He says it, and who He's saying it to? How can you just pick and choose which commandments apply to you?

Of course , it doesn't matter to them what the Lord says . Of course they pick and choose ; add and subtract ; change and reinvent which commandments they decide to observe . They change who the Scriptures were written to . They subtract parts of the command that are in the same quotes that they give for proving their point . They refuse to do it themselves . They have even reinvented what the Sabbath is . The Sabbath is about rest . That is the last thing they want for you . They want it about work and duty - to boast in your flesh that they have been able to manipulate you into doing something you are not required to do .

holo · Jun 29, 2008

visionary said:
2 Corinthians 3:3
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

You may not have realised that the epistle of Christ is the Ten Commandments. ..

New_Wineskin · Jun 29, 2008

Yes , "You are the epistle of Christ" means "the ten commandments are the epistle of Christ" . That is some interesting logic .

MamaZ · Jun 29, 2008

holo said:

I agree

LittleLambofJesus · Jun 29, 2008

If fact our whole conversation is to be on the epistles of Christ or better known as the oracles of God or as you have mistakenly understood as the laws of the jews

New_Wineskin said:
Yes , "You are the epistle of Christ" means "the ten commandments are the epistle of Christ" . That is some interesting logic .
.

I would call the 10 Commandments the Epistle of MOSES>

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

Luke 16:31 Saying yet to him: "If Moses and the Prophets not they are hearing, neither if ever anyone out of dead-ones may be resurrecting, they shall be being persuaded.

Matthew 3:9 "And no be thinking to be saying in selves, 'father we are having, the Abraham': for I am saying to ye, that is able, the God/YHWH out of the stones, these, to rouse offsprings to the Abraham".

cyberlizard · Jun 29, 2008

the book of Acts clearly shows that the apostles asked him (Paul) to prove he walked according to Torah by undergoing a ritual purification process with other believers who had taken a nazarite vow... what did this entail, shaving their heads, sacrificng an animal, ritual mikvah, period of purification.

Why would these believers do such a thing, and more to the point why would Paul.

Steve

p.s. I like the prophecies from Isaiah 56 about the gentiles who would later come to faith in 'david' AKA Jesus, who would keep the Sabbath and be observant.

The only thing that is really changed is the location where the Torah has been written.

WailingWall · Jun 29, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
Greetings. The way it sounds to the Jewish Sabbath keepers on this thread, those who keep the Jewish Sabbath will not bear the brunt of the "Stripes" us non-Sabbath keepers will get

Luke 12:48 The one yet no knowing doing yet worthy of blows/stripes/plhgwn <4127> shall be being lashed few. To every yet to whom was given much shall be being sought beside of him and to whom they-committed much more exceedingly they shall be asking him.

Quite the contrary i believe. Those not keeping Gods sabbath will bear no stripes. You guys claim the 10 commandments are no longer to followed. The WORD of God says...

DEUT.8 [5] Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, AS A MAN CHASTENETH HIS SON, SO THE LORD THY GOD CHASTENETH THEE.[6]THEREFORE THOU SHALT KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD THY GOD, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.

Now if you do not attempt to keep Gods commandments, if you claim they are no more to be kept, then God cannot chasten you.

PSALM 94 [12] Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law;[13] That thou mayest give him rest from the days of adversity, until the pit be digged for the wicked.

Any you who claim there is no law know when the pit is to dug for the wicked?

REV.3 [18] I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.[19] As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

So if you believe this new testament scripture and do not believe you are capable of sinning because there is no law, what are you guys going to repent of? A bad hair day?

Drwhat · Jun 29, 2008

Hi there JeFell,
as far as I know everyday should be a sabbath day, that is everyday we should rest in our Lords soverignity and we should constantly think upon Him and give Him the praise for His workings in us all. We should no longer be thinking a couple of hours showing out on a Sunday is enough to appease God that we relly give a hoot about Him, He's not interested in our mass gatherings and ostientacious wafflings, He is however very interested in turning up where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name for serious honest fellowship with Christ. This is the gathering we should not foresake.
Today we are in a New Testament a better covenant, as it was the letter that killed but the new covenant is of faith in Christ's redemptive sustitutionary sacrifice at the cross to save us all. Nor should we judge others in what days, holy days, holidays, etc, that they want to keep. It's not our business to tell other's how they should worship God, all we are to do is and only when asked give a good account of why and what we believe the rest is God's business. Amen

WailingWall · Jun 29, 2008

Drwhat said:
Hi there JeFell,
as far as I know everyday should be a sabbath day, that is everyday we should rest in our Lords soverignity

2 THES. 1 [7] And to you who are troubled REST WITH US, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN with his mighty angels, [8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Youre jumping the gun a bit

WailingWall · Jun 29, 2008

Drwhat said:
Nor should we judge others in what days, holy days, holidays, etc, that they want to keep.

Any scripture to back up those words?

LittleLambofJesus · Jun 29, 2008

cyberlizard said:
the book of Acts clearly shows that the apostles asked him (Paul) to prove he walked according to Torah by undergoing a ritual purification process with other believers who had taken a nazarite vow... what did this entail, shaving their heads, sacrificng an animal, ritual mikvah, period of purification.

Why would these believers do such a thing, and more to the point why would Paul.

Steve

Hi. Paul and the Jewish Apostles followed a lot of the OC ritual types/shadows until the Lord took away the Jew's temple/sanctuary showing them that no longer would the Lord be worshiped thru sacrifice, but thru the Spirit.

Matthew 23:38 Behold, is being left to ye the House of ye a-wilderness/erhmoV <2048>

Reve 18:9 and shall be lamenting and shall be wailing over Her the kings of the land, the ones with her fornicating and indulging, whenever they may be observing the smoke of the fireing/purwsei <4451> of Her

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7164949&page=2

WailingWall · Jun 29, 2008

Hey Drwhat
I see your new to this board. Welcome. Its a wonderful board.

LittleLambofJesus · Jun 29, 2008

Drwhat said:
Hi there JeFell,

Today we are in a New Testament a better covenant, as it was the letter that killed but the new covenant is of faith in Christ's redemptive sustitutionary sacrifice at the cross to save us all. Nor should we judge others in what days, holy days, holidays, etc, that they want to keep. It's not our business to tell other's how they should worship God, all we are to do is and only when asked give a good account of why and what we believe the rest is God's business. Amen

Excellent post. For some reason though, the Messianic sect thinks they are in BOTH the OC and NC. Never made much sense to me. Sometimes I wonder if they even understand the OC Scriptures as applied to the Jews.

[you must spread some reputation around before giving it to Drwhat again!]

Hebrew 8:10 That this the Covenant/diaqhkh <1242> which I shall be Covenanting/diaqhsomai <1303> (5695) to the House of Israel after the days, those, is saying Lord. Giving laws of Me into the minds of them and upon hearts of them I shall be engraving them. And I shall be to them into a God and they shall be to Me into a People. [Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrew 10:16]

2 Corin 3:14 But was calloused the minds of them. For until the today day, the same covering upon the reading of the Old Covenant is remaining, no being up-covered. That In Christ it is being-taken-away.

PROPHECYKID · Jun 29, 2008

the book of Acts clearly shows that the apostles asked him (Paul) to prove he walked according to Torah by undergoing a ritual purification process with other believers who had taken a nazarite vow... what did this entail, shaving their heads, sacrificng an animal, ritual mikvah, period of purification.

Why would these believers do such a thing, and more to the point why would Paul.

Steve

Hi. Paul and the Jewish Apostles followed a lot of the OC ritual types/shadows until the Lord took away the Jew's temple/sanctuary showing them that no longer would the Lord be worshiped thru sacrifice, but thru the Spirit.

Actually Paul did not keep the ceremonial and sacrificial laws because he know that they were void by the death of Christ. He participated in that ordinance after being persuaded by the other leaders of that place that he should do so so that the jews would not seek to kill him. Paul was being accused of teaching the gentiles that they should not follow Moses law. He did do that, and the jews were waiting on his arrival to kill him. They convinced Paul to do this ordinance to convice them that these accusations were false without him having to say anything. That did not work though.

LittleLambofJesus · Jun 29, 2008

PROPHECYKID said:
Actually Paul did not keep the ceremonial and sacrificial laws because he know that they were void by the death of Christ. He participated in that ordinance after being persuaded by the other leaders of that place that he should do so so that the jews would not seek to kill him.

Paul was being accused of teaching the gentiles that they should not follow Moses law. He did do that, and the jews were waiting on his arrival to kill him. They convinced Paul to do this ordinance to convice them that these accusations were false without him having to say anything. That did not work though.

Yeah, we notice that

John 7:1 And was walking, the Jesus, after these in the Galilee for not He willed in the Judea to be walking, that the Judeans sought Him to kill.

Acts 23:14 Who-any toward coming to the Chief-priests and to the Elders say "to-anathema we anathemtize ourselves of no yet nothing to taste till of which we may be killing the Paul.

cyberlizard · Jun 29, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
Hi. Paul and the Jewish Apostles followed a lot of the OC ritual types/shadows until the Lord took away the Jew's temple/sanctuary showing them that no longer would the Lord be worshiped thru sacrifice, but thru the Spirit.

This shows a lack of understanding of Judaism and history... if you think a Jew thinks he can be saved by following all of the Torah you understand neither the Torah nor Judaism. No one person could keep it all even if he/she wanted too.... what's more even Jesus did not keep it all (even though he was a fully observant Jew.)

That said though, it would appear that, if God did not want the temple system to remain functional, then why did He allow it to continue for forty years from the time of the crucifixion, does this show incompetence or a faulty understanding of the temple system.

Steve

Christians.. desecrating the Sabbath

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