Christians and attitude

[sdmsanjose]

Christians and attitudes

General Political Discussions seem to often wind up coming down to our spiritual beliefs or non-beliefs. I guess it is true that most political issues involve spiritual beliefs.

As a person that believes that Christ is who He says He is, I need to be reminded as to the attitude I should have when I discus these issues. I think it is very important to remember that humility is in Chris6t’s teachings (see Like 18 below)


LUKE 18
10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Pointing out other people’s faults is not humility. A good way for me to be reminded of my attitude is to re-read a poem by Maya Angelou

I'M A CHRISTIAN

By Maya Angelou​

When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not shouting "I'm clean livin'.​

I'm whispering "I was lost," Now I'm found and forgiven.​

When I say..."I am a Christian" I don't speak of this with pride.​

I'm confessing that I stumble and need CHRIST to be my guide.​

When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not trying to be strong.​

I'm professing that I'm weak and need HIS strength to carry on.​

When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not bragging of success.​

I'm admitting I have failed and need God to clean my mess.​

When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not claiming to be perfect,​

My flaws are far too visible but, God believes I am worth it.​

When I say... "I am a Christian" I still feel the sting of pain,​

I have my share of heartaches ...So I call upon His name.​

When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not holier than thou,​

I'm just a simple sinner who received God's good grace, somehow.​

Author​

~Maya Angelou~​

Christians do not think they are perfect or better than others.


They know they are not.​

Do you Christians feel that Maya did a good job of presenting the attitude that Christians should have?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Gore Vidal opined that the problem with Christianity is that Christ is left hanging, bloody and dead, upon the cross, never brought down, resurrected, or sent off to heaven to be glorified. So they (Christians) remain in a state of mourning instead of a state of joy (end of his quote). This of course can lead to some really goofy attitudes. Here's some of his somewhat cynical, but insightful quotes. Enjoy. Gore Vidal - Wikiquote</p>

 

[sdmsanjose]

Reply by Oldwiseguy
Gore Vidal opined that the problem with Christianity is that Christ is left hanging, bloody and dead, upon the cross, never brought down, resurrected, or sent off to heaven to be glorified. So they (Christians) remain in a state of mourning instead of a state of joy (end of his quote). This of course can lead to some really goofy attitudes.

I think there may be some truth in that for some Christians. However, I did not take the poem above to be in that category. The poem talks about being forgiven, Christ being the guide and being the strength. You can’t be that and still be “…left hanging bloody and dead upon the cross”

 

[jayem]

Speaking as a non-believer, my problem is with religion, not faith. I always hear that Christianity, at its heart, is about a relationship with Jesus. That's certainly the message of Maya's poem. And that's wonderful. I'd never disdain anyone who believes her personal faith is a source of strength and comfort, and provides forgiveness for sin. The problem comes when personal faith gets scaled up into organized religion, with rituals, and doctrines, and legalisms, and a mission to convert non-believers into the fold. And along these lines, there is a passage attributed to Jesus that is especially troubling:

"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters." Matt. 12:30

The unambiguous teaching here is that if you don't follow Jesus, you're not just wrong, or mistaken, you're an opponent. If you don't believe, you're an enemy. This is a terrible attitude to have towards non-believers. In fairness, it's not exclusive to Christianity. You see it in OT Judaism (which is where Jesus got it), and it's even worse in Islam. But it's a toxic doctrine, and it only leads to conflict.

 

[variant]

Speaking as a non-believer, my problem is with religion, not faith. I always hear that Christianity, at its heart, is about a relationship with Jesus. That's certainly the message of Maya's poem. And that's wonderful. I'd never disdain anyone who believes her personal faith is a source of strength and comfort, and provides forgiveness for sin. The problem comes when personal faith gets scaled up into organized religion, with rituals, and doctrines, and legalisms, and a mission to convert non-believers into the fold. And along these lines, there is a passage attributed to Jesus that is especially troubling:

"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters." Matt. 12:30

The unambiguous teaching here is that if you don't follow Jesus, you're not just wrong, or mistaken, you're an opponent. If you don't believe, you're an enemy. This is a terrible attitude to have towards non-believers. In fairness, it's not exclusive to Christianity. You see it in OT Judaism (which is where Jesus got it), and it's even worse in Islam. But it's a toxic doctrine, and it only leads to conflict.

You will find that people claiming to have the full and unalterable truth regarding everything in the universe have little need of alternative viewpoints.

 

[sdmsanjose]

Quote of Jayem
Speaking as a non-believer, my problem is with religion, not faith. I always hear that Christianity, at its heart, is about a relationship with Jesus. That's certainly the message of Maya's poem. And that's wonderful. I'd never disdain anyone who believes her personal faith is a source of strength and comfort, and provides forgiveness for sin. The problem comes when personal faith gets scaled up into organized religion, with rituals, and doctrines, and legalisms, and a mission to convert non-believers into the fold. And along these lines, there is a passage attributed to Jesus that is especially troubling:

"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters." Matt. 12:30

The unambiguous teaching here is that if you don't follow Jesus, you're not just wrong, or mistaken, you're an opponent. If you don't believe, you're an enemy. This is a terrible attitude to have towards non-believers. In fairness, it's not exclusive to Christianity. You see it in OT Judaism (which is where Jesus got it), and it's even worse in Islam. But it's a toxic doctrine, and it only leads to conflict.

I read the chapter that your scripture was in. This is what I read; Jesus healed a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute. The self righteous legalistic Pharisees made the judgment that Jesus did this good deed by Beelzebub, the prince of demons.

So the Pharisees call Jesus out and force the issue of good and evil and claim that Jesus is evil. Jesus answers by saying that&#8221; every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined; if Satan drives out Satan he is divided against himself.&#8221;

A few verse after that Jesus makes the statement that you posted.
"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters." Matt. 12:30

IMO Jesus makes that statement because the issue of good and evil was injected by the Pharisees. I don&#8217;t think that statement refers to some one like you. You did not judge Jesus as evil you said:

&#8220;I'd never disdain anyone who believes her personal faith is a source of strength and comfort, and provides forgiveness for sin.&#8221;

That is a LOT different that saying Jesus is the prince of demons! I don&#8217;t think that you need to interpret that scripture as Jesus saying that you are against Him. There was a man in the Bible that did not believe that Jesus was the divine Christ but Jesus was not against him in fact He healed him. You can read the story in John Chapter 9; a few of the verses are below.

24Then again called they (Pharisees) the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man (Jesus) is a sinner.
25He (the healed man) answered and said, Whether he (Jesus) be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.

Jesus is not against an unbeliever but anyone that says that Jesus is the prince of demons is AGAINST Jesus!

 

[tolly]

"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters." Matt. 12:30

The unambiguous teaching here is that if you don't follow Jesus, you're not just wrong, or mistaken, you're an opponent. If you don't believe, you're an enemy. This is a terrible attitude to have towards non-believers. In fairness, it's not exclusive to Christianity. You see it in OT Judaism (which is where Jesus got it), and it's even worse in Islam. But it's a toxic doctrine, and it only leads to conflict.

I am no scholar, Jay, but my understanding of this passage, in context, is that Jesus is saying that blasphemy against the power of the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. The Jewish Pharisees were ridiculing Jesus and the power of His Spirit as it related to Christ casting demons out of a man presented to Him. The Pharisees claimed that Jesus's healing power was from the devil, not God. Jesus responds with the well-known 'house divided' sermon and finished by stating your passage. He was speaking to prideful Pharisees as those who would be scattered. I don't understand this passage to mean that unbelievers are my enemy, nor the enemy of Jesus.

On the contrary, they are opportunities to witness and offer love.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

I am no scholar, Jay, but my understanding of this passage, in context, is that Jesus is saying that blasphemy against the power of the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. The Jewish Pharisees were ridiculing Jesus and the power of His Spirit as it related to Christ casting demons out of a man presented to Him. The Pharisees claimed that Jesus's healing power was from the devil, not God. Jesus responds with the well-known 'house divided' sermon and finished by stating your passage. He was speaking to prideful Pharisees as those who would be scattered. I don't understand this passage to mean that unbelievers are my enemy, nor the enemy of Jesus.

On the contrary, they are opportunities to witness and offer love.

It would be nice if everyone agreed with you, but everyone doesn't. Hence why religions are toxic, not because what Jesus said was wrong or evil but because imperfect people take the words and apply a variety of meanings to them. Some of those applied meanings lead to hate, exclusion and hubris while others lead to love, inclusion and humility

And it seems that more people of faith take the latter approach while people of organized religion take the former approach.

 

[JoshMM]

Agreed. For 31 years of my 33 years in life, I was an unbeliever. I went to a "Christian School" and the judgment, exclusion, and unwelcoming attitude I felt towards unbelievers (and myself) darn near caused me to never want to find God. I never once felt love in their teachings.

Thankfully through personal interactions and actions of some dear people I met when I was lost and at rockbottom, I got a glimpse of unconditional love. That love shown towards me stirred me to find out more and walla.

I could never tell you what God is thinking. Who am I to guess at that? What I do know is I feel called to love and accept everyone. I should go out of my way to help my fellow Christian brothers just as quickly as I should help the troubled people I often interact with as a fireman. Unconditional love is a big thing for me.

Josh

 

[TheReasoner]

-

 

[sdmsanjose]

Posted by jayemhttp://www.christianforums.com/t7551054/#post57236442
Speaking as a non-believer, my problem is with religion, not faith. I always hear that Christianity, at its heart, is about a relationship with Jesus. That's certainly the message of Maya's poem. And that's wonderful. I'd never disdain anyone who believes her personal faith is a source of strength and comfort, and provides forgiveness for sin. The problem comes when personal faith gets scaled up into organized religion, with rituals, and doctrines, and legalisms, and a mission to convert non-believers into the fold. And along these lines, there is a passage attributed to Jesus that is especially troubling:

"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters." Matt. 12:30

The unambiguous teaching here is that if you don't follow Jesus, you're not just wrong, or mistaken, you're an opponent. If you don't believe, you're an enemy. This is a terrible attitude to have towards non-believers. In fairness, it's not exclusive to Christianity. You see it in OT Judaism (which is where Jesus got it), and it's even worse in Islam. But it's a toxic doctrine, and it only leads to conflict.


Reply by Clirus
The bad news is that Matthew 12:30 is true. II Corinthians 6:14 states, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with the unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

Matthew 6:24 states, "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

The good news is that salvation is free and available to everyone. John 3:16-17 says, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

Jayem
Clirus loves to point out how the unbeliever is the enemy of God. She has tried to show by posting II Corinth 6:14 and Matthew 6:24 that the scripture (Matt. 12:30) that troubles you means that Jesus is against you.

"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters." Matt. 12:30



That Matt 12:30 scripture if read in full context means that
Jesus is not against an unbeliever but anyone that says that Jesus is the prince of demons is AGAINST Jesus!
If Jesus is against the unbeliever then no one would be saved. So pushing the idea that Jesus is against unbelievers does not make any since.

Clirus did post a scripture (John 3:16) that shows the heart of God and in my opinion the main theme of Jesus’ reason for coming to earth. That is one of the very few times I have seen Clirus post something like that. Nice post Clirus!

Jayem, I read your post and took it to mean that you appreciate true Christianity, a relationship with Christ. That to me shows that you have an open heart to the Christ relationship as described by Myra’s poem. I think that Clirus does not have the wisdom to see when someone is open to true Christianity.

Jayem, my studies of the Bible show a whole lot more of God reaching out to “unbelievers” than stressing who He is against. Jesus came to earth and hung with sinners like me, presented the way to be renewed, forgave all sorts of people, and did not emphasize being against unbelievers that had an open heart but was for acceptance and renewal.

However, do not take my words or Clirus’s words, but read the scriptures for yourself so that you can get a better picture of the meaning.

 

[TheReasoner]

Does your unconditional love include pedophiles?

They need Jesus as much as anyone else. Don't they?

 

[theWaris1]

Does your unconditional love include pedophiles?

Hate the sin....... love

 

[wpage]

"Suffer not the little children and do not hinder them for of such is the Kingdom"
My love does not include pedophiles...

 

[TheReasoner]

"Suffer not the little children and do not hinder them for of such is the Kingdom"
My love does not include pedophiles...

Matthew 5:43-48:
43 &#8220;You have heard that it was said, &#8216;Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.&#8217; 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Loving pedophiles is probably the hardest thing you can ask of many people. Esp. those who have been abused by them. But Jesus loves them, too. And I think we need to help them as any other person.

Humans often say: Hate that vile person. Jesus is not like that though.

 

[Anonymous man]

Faith Guardian has a point. I was abused as a little boy, over a period of several years. (Not by family, I should add.). It took many years, but forgiveness came eventually.

As a victim of long term abuse and as a CHristian I say that it is not something I expect of any victim to manage. The hurt is extreme, and the scars are deep. But I do think that it is best for us to do so - to forgive and love even them - because it has given me a better life and because I really think this is the example Jesus set before us. To love even them.

Please understand these are not light words that have come easily.

 

[JoshMM]

My feelings towards pedophiles is more of a feeling of disappointed love if that makes sense. I love them as people, but I feel sadness for where they are at in their lives. Everyone has free will and chooses, but I try and remember I am not in their shoes, nor do I know how they got so screwed up.

I say this as a former Deputy Sheriff, father, and victim of sexual abuse as a little kid.

Josh

 

[Snow Phoenix]

I'M A CHRISTIAN

By Maya Angelou​

When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not shouting "I'm clean livin'.​

I'm whispering "I was lost," Now I'm found and forgiven.​

When I say..."I am a Christian" I don't speak of this with pride.​

I'm confessing that I stumble and need CHRIST to be my guide.​

When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not trying to be strong.​

I'm professing that I'm weak and need HIS strength to carry on.​

When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not bragging of success.​

I'm admitting I have failed and need God to clean my mess.​

When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not claiming to be perfect,​

My flaws are far too visible but, God believes I am worth it.​

When I say... "I am a Christian" I still feel the sting of pain,​

I have my share of heartaches ...So I call upon His name.​

When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not holier than thou,​

I'm just a simple sinner who received God's good grace, somehow.​

Author​

~Maya Angelou~​

That poem covers pretty well almost all I feel is abhorrent about Christian thinking...​

 

[sdmsanjose]

Quote of Snow Phoenix
That poem covers pretty well almost all I feel is abhorrent about Christian thinking...

Do you mind explaining why you find the poem abhorrent?

 

[Snow Phoenix]

Do you mind explaining why you find the poem abhorrent?

It's not the poem I find abhorrent, it's the thinking it demonstrates that I find abhorrent. The poem is quite well composed.
It's the whole concept of being 'not good enough' and 'broken'.

"I'm confessing that I stumble and need CHRIST to be my guide."
"I'm professing that I'm weak and need HIS strength to carry on."

While these lines are alright, as many people, especially those under stress or hard times rely on various philosophies and teachings to help them through it. Some choose to meditate, some choose to pray, etc etc.

"I'm admitting I have failed and need God to clean my mess."
"My flaws are far too visible but, God believes I am worth it."
"I'm just a simple sinner who received God's good grace, somehow."

It's the lines like this that really get my goat. Is it not a direct teaching of almost all Christian denominations that we are not worthy of God's grace? We are broken and failed creatures that need some supernatural being to come in and fix all our mistakes.

This is where personally philosophies like humanism really come and shine. We are all one under the human condition. We all know love, pain, sorrow, success, failure, etc etc. But we can all unite under these things, without labeling ourselves 'sinners', failures, etc. We can, in our times of pain and sorrow rely on our fellow man to come to our aid to get us through.