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Christianity's most inconsistent position

DogmaHunter

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That would, by definition, be an agnostic.

Agnostic atheists, to be exact.

One does not exclude the other.


Dawkins, Hawking, and Tyson have been pretty conclusive about there not being any kind of god anywhere.

Have they, really?
Tyson refers explicitly to himself as an agnostic atheist.
Dawkins made a scale in his book "the god delusion" ranging from 1 to 7. 1 being "there definatly is a god" and 7 being "there definatly is no go" and he ranks himself as a 6.5

I don't know about Hawking, but I'm pretty sure that, like all intellectuals, he wouldn't pretend to know unknowable things either.



I don't understand how and why this point needs to be addressed again and again and again on this forum.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Atheist literally means "no God" so you are altering the definition and setting up your own strawman here.

Really?
Did you read the definition YOU YOURSELF posted?

Definition of ATHEIST

atheist
noun

athe·ist | \ˈā-thē-ist \
Definition of atheist
: a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods : one who subscribes to or advocates atheism

That's a position of DISBELIEF of the positive claim that god(s) exist(s).
That's NOT a position of claiming the opposite.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Agnostic atheists, to be exact.

One does not exclude the other.




Have they, really?
Tyson refers explicitly to himself as an agnostic atheist.
Dawkins made a scale in his book "the god delusion" ranging from 1 to 7. 1 being "there definatly is a god" and 7 being "there definatly is no go" and he ranks himself as a 6.5

I don't know about Hawking, but I'm pretty sure that, like all intellectuals, he wouldn't pretend to know unknowable things either.



I don't understand how and why this point needs to be addressed again and again and again on this forum.
Such snobbery. "intellectuals". What are you claiming is unknowable?
 
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Tree of Life

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"if".
So his words aren't "necessarily true". Since "if".

So really, there is no justification for this "knowledge", except in some fallacious circular way.

Every system of knowledge is broadly circular. The only way to prove the legitimacy of rationalism is through rational argument. The only way to prove the legitimacy of empiricism is through empirical argument. It's just the nature of an ultimate authority. It is necessarily self-authenticating.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Every system of knowledge is broadly circular.

No. No matter what Sye Ten says.


The only way to prove the legitimacy of rationalism is through rational argument

No. Rather, by its results.

Rationalism is supported by its continued consistency in achieving succesfull results.
If you build airplaines through empirical rationalism, they fly.
If you don't build them that way, you don't even know where to start.

Rationalism works.

The only way to prove the legitimacy of empiricism is through empirical argument

Again, no. Results.
Your computer works as a direct result of the success of empirical study of reality.
If you try and build a computer without emprical methodology, you again wouldn't even know where to start. Let alone that you'll be succesfull.....


It's just the nature of an ultimate authority.

There are no authorities in science. There is just the result and explanatory power of ideas. Atomic theory isn't accurate because Feynman believed it. It is accurate because it works. It is accurate because if you build nukes based on that theory, they detonate.

It is necessarily self-authenticating.

No, it's not.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Such snobbery. "intellectuals".

Just an observation. I don't know any intellectual who thinks that it is possible to know the unknowable. It doesn't sound very intellectual to claim otherwise, wouldn't you agree?

What are you claiming is unknowable?

All unfalsifiable claims. Of which "god exists", is just one example.
 
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Tree of Life

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No. No matter what Sye Ten says.




No. Rather, by its results.

Rationalism is supported by its continued consistency in achieving succesfull results.
If you build airplaines through empirical rationalism, they fly.
If you don't build them that way, you don't even know where to start.

Rationalism works.



Again, no. Results.
Your computer works as a direct result of the success of empirical study of reality.
If you try and build a computer without emprical methodology, you again wouldn't even know where to start. Let alone that you'll be succesfull.....




There are no authorities in science. There is just the result and explanatory power of ideas. Atomic theory isn't accurate because Feynman believed it. It is accurate because it works. It is accurate because if you build nukes based on that theory, they detonate.



No, it's not.

This is all just a category error. We're not talking about the methodology of science here or what works in a pragmatic way. We're talking about epistemology and systems of knowledge.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Just an observation. I don't know any intellectual who thinks that it is possible to know the unknowable. It doesn't sound very intellectual to claim otherwise, wouldn't you agree?
Unknowable seems to the issue here.



All unfalsifiable claims. Of which "god exists", is just one example.
Millions of people disagree that God exists is unknowable.
 
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DogmaHunter

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This is all just a category error. We're not talking about the methodology of science here or what works in a pragmatic way. We're talking about epistemology and systems of knowledge.

To me they are the same thing.

I know that atomic theory is rather accurate because nukes explode when you build them according to that model. Empirical knowledge, is the only knowledge worth knowing (or knowable).

I don't "know" that atomic theory is rather accurate, because some cleverly constructed semantic word play defined it as such.

I think that's ridiculous and will only inevitably lead to false beliefs.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Unknowable seems to the issue here.

Millions of people disagree that God exists is unknowable.

Millions of people are wrong.

Knowledge is demonstrable.

God is defined as an unfalsifiable entity.

You are welcome to post a falsifiable definition of God, if you disagree.
 
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Chriliman

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Because it's the only kind of knowledge that can actually be tested on its accuracy.

And its track record, speaks for itself imo.

From a theistic perspective, it would be silly to think God is opposed to knowledge that can be tested and proven accurate, therefore, I see nothing wrong with what you're saying and agree.
 
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Tree of Life

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Because it's the only kind of knowledge that can actually be tested on its accuracy.

Here's the broad circularity. Empirical knowledge is the only kind of knowledge that can stand up to empirical testing. Therefore, says you, it's the only real kind of knowledge. You're already assuming what you're trying to prove.

And its track record, speaks for itself imo.

So you admit that this is all simply your opinion, or shall we say preference?
 
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DogmaHunter

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From a theistic perspective, it would be silly to think God is opposed to knowledge that can be tested and proven accurate, therefore, I see nothing wrong with what you're saying and agree.
How about claims that can't be tested and shown accurate or false?
 
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DogmaHunter

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Here's the broad circularity. Empirical knowledge is the only kind of knowledge that can stand up to empirical testing.

That's a weird thing to say.
No.

Empirical knowledge is that knowledge that can be tested empirically.
That it's empirically testable, is what makes knowledge empirical knowledge.

There's nothing circular about that.
It's just a qualification of what type of knowledge we are talking about. In this case: it's testable knowledge.

I stick to my point. It is the only type of knowledge that has value. Because it's the only type of knowledge that can be shown to be accurate.

In fact, I would even go so far as to say that the only knowledge, is empirical knowledge.
Because if it can't be shown to be accurate, then it's not knowledge - then it's just a belief.

You could say that knowledge are those claims / beliefs that have been shown to be accurate.
And how do you show things are accurate? Well, through empirical means.

So really, I'ld even say that "empirical knowledge" is redundant. The word "knowledge", to me, already implies empiricism, at least when it comes to knowledge about the natural world. How things work etc.


Therefore, says you, it's the only real kind of knowledge. You're already assuming what you're trying to prove.

No, not at all.

It's not assumed. It is concluded. From the track record.
And from the rather simple idea that accurate knowledge is better then inaccurate knowledge. So you require a means to find out if things are accurate or not.

"accurate" are those things that reflect actual reality. So you require a means to test those things against reality. Empiricism, provides that means.

I am not aware of any alternatives.

In any case, this is anything but circular.

So you admit that this is all simply your opinion, or shall we say preference?

No, the track record of empiricism being succesfull and very good at getting things right, is pretty objective.
 
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Chriliman

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How about claims that can't be tested and shown accurate or false?

I prefer to believe things the evidence supports and are possibly verifiable. This more strongly applies to future realities over past realities (which may not be verifiable at all).
 
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Nihilist Virus

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Millions of people are wrong.

Knowledge is demonstrable.

God is defined as an unfalsifiable entity.

You are welcome to post a falsifiable definition of God, if you disagree.

Obviously a good point as it's been dodged and ignored, which is their go-to move.

Assume God exists and leverage that to make a non-trivial prediction which comes true. Never been done.
 
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