• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Christianity at the most basic level

Status
Not open for further replies.

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,818
✟368,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The Bible was written in a Jewish cultural context, so while I completely agree we should not read Jewish literature as having the same authority as the Bible, it can still be valuable in helping us to correctly interpret it. In this case, this account very closely parallels the account with Jesus, where someone is interested in quickly understanding the essence of the Torah. The person was not asking about which command was important to keep, but about which command was the most important. The rabbi didn't say that he should keep this one command and not have to worry about keeping the others, but that the others explain how to keep that command and that he should go and study them. In the same way, the other commands explain how to love God and love our neighbor, so we should also go and study them.
I think the Old Testament lays out the context of the Old Covenant.

I think that the 10 Commandments are pretty basic and that most Christians understand them without any additional context. I think that you think more people are interested in Jewish culture than people are. Most people are not interested in it.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
41
California
✟156,979.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
If Christ stayed dead, He could not have died for my sins, He would have died for His own sins like everyone else.

Correct, there would be no Christianity, there would just be Judaism.

So...

If he dies for only his own sins, then he stays dead.
If he dies for other people's sins, then he rises from the dead.

Can you explain this logic?
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
41
California
✟156,979.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
That is the meaning of the Greek word used in the Septuagint & New Testament that is translated as "sin."



Many Christians would say the mark is in some sense God's image - His perfect love, His goodness, etc. Christians believe human beings were made in the image of God, but that in us the image is distorted.

So, sin means falling short or "missing the mark" of God's image being whole in us.

I'm sorry but this is entirely inadequate. It is vague and explains nothing about how I am supposed to behave. If I don't know how I'm supposed to behave, I don't know what sin is.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
41
California
✟156,979.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
This is way off topic and is it appropriate for a struggling Christian asking about the basic tenants of Christian faith? I would think that this would be a new thread or you will really confuse him.


He was asking about the origins of sin... Which all began with Lucifer himself. And I was trying to show him that because of Lucifer's fall a third of the heavens were void, leaving room for what would become the human race to replace. In which Christ Jesus made the way by dying on the cross that we may have our sins forgiven.

ToBeLoved is right, although I'm not confused on what rockytopva is bringing up because I've heard it before.

I was not asking about the origins of sin, what the first sin was, whether it was Satan or Adam or Eve. I'm asking for a clear definition of what sin is, since it is a fundamental concept in Christianity and yet is poorly defined.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
41
California
✟156,979.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Indeed, the New Covenant is better and replaced the Old. Jesus fulfilled the law by teaching how to obey it and by demonstrating a perfect example for us to follow, and we are told to follow his example and walk as he walked. If you look at the first four of the 10 Commandments, they are about how to love God, the last six are about how to love your neighbor, and all of the rest of the commands can fit into either of those two categories. If you think you just need to love God and love your neighbor and can ignore all of the rest of God's commands for how to love Him and your neighbor, then you are missing the point.

I'm not entirely sure how something along the lines of "You may own slaves as property and beat them as long as they don't die," or "Utterly destroy the city and take the virgins for yourselves" falls along the lines of loving your neighbor.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,636
4,677
Hudson
✟345,422.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Jesus Himself said those two commandments fulfilled all of the law.

Do not get mad at me, talk to Jesus about it.

Again, those two commandments fulfilled the law because all of the law is about how to love God and how to love your neighbor, so they are the essence of the law, not the replacement of it.

Jesus of course has written His Word on our hearts.

That is probably why we do not need all the extra laws that the Jewish people follow. They can come to Christ themselves and the Lord will do that for them also.

His word is the law. Obeying God's law is about identifying with God, not identifying with Jews. Jesus gave us a perfect exampe oflived in perfect obedience to the law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21) and walk as he walked (1 John 2:4-6).

I think the Old Testament lays out the context of the Old Covenant.

I think that the 10 Commandments are pretty basic and that most Christians understand them without any additional context. I think that you think more people are interested in Jewish culture than people are. Most people are not interested in it.

It's a shame that more people aren't interested in the context of the Bible. I've learned much more in-depth about the Bible since I started studying its Jewish cultural context, so I highly recommend it. In any case, the 10 Commandments can likewise be summarized as commands for how to love God (1-4) and commands for how to love your neighbor (5-10), but I wasn't speaking about just the 10 Commandments and neither was Jesus. Neither of the greatest two commandments are part of the 10 Commandments.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,636
4,677
Hudson
✟345,422.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Yes, the question is that the Torah contains a wealth of passages that many sane people want to distance themselves from, so why do you claim to adhere to it?

The Torah is holy, righteous, and good, Jesus kept it perfectly, and we are told to follow his example. Some passages need to be studied in order to understand the Jewish cultural context and can seem strange when they are not understood.
 
Upvote 0

graceandpeace

Episcopalian
Sep 12, 2013
2,985
574
✟29,685.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
I'm sorry but this is entirely inadequate. It is vague and explains nothing about how I am supposed to behave. If I don't know how I'm supposed to behave, I don't know what sin is.

It's ok.

To Christians, Jesus is the perfect Image of God. Meaning, He is the one that shows us what God is actually like.

Jesus, in His life & teachings, gives us examples to follow - examples of how to "behave" as you inquire. The Gospels cover this with specific examples, but broadly we are called to "behave" in a way that loves & serves others.

When we love & serve others, Christians believe we grow spiritually to be more like Jesus. Meaning, the image of God in us begins to be restored (remember "theosis" from my first post?).

When we fail to love & serve others, we fall short of the example Jesus set for us & therefore fall short of God's image. That's sin.

If you're after a specific list of "sins" or of good or bad "behaviors," the Bible broadly gives examples, but it's not always a black & white matter, which complicates giving any sort of concrete list.
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
42,157
22,748
US
✟1,734,005.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm sorry but this is entirely inadequate. It is vague and explains nothing about how I am supposed to behave. If I don't know how I'm supposed to behave, I don't know what sin is.

Are you really concerned about that? Is this something you're really concerned about, or are you just entertaining yourself?
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,818
✟368,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Well you can start with the 10 Commandments. It is putting your will or desires above another person and intruding on that other persons basic humanity in God's eyes.

I would like to hear what the OP thinks sin is since we all have our idea of what it is it's just hard to put into words.
 
Upvote 0

rockytopva

Love to pray! :)
Site Supporter
Mar 6, 2011
20,701
8,049
.
Visit site
✟1,251,681.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
Sin....

I own two houses. I let my sister and nephew live in one and I in the other. I am a neat kind of guy and always kept the house clean. I would have young people over for fellowship and as it is on a large 3 acre lot would have camp fires, grilled burgers, and let the young people stay.

My sister and nephew only think of themselves and have never invited anyone over for fellowship. They expect me to keep the property taxes and upkeep on the house and won't do a thing for me. My nephew is too lazy to do anything outside and has never learned the word discipline from my sister. My sister lets her dogs stay in the house and don't mind the fact that they poop all over the house. So my fine house is turned into a stinky disaster area.... Which really tisses me off!

What would you do about that? Their nasty way of living is a sin to me.

O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! - Deuteronomy 5:29

God also has rules for this planet earth. If the children of Israel were to have kept those rules it would have went well with them. But because of all the nasty things that went on it became a sin to them. Therefore God cannot have them in their land or his either one. I believe that this is the Laodicean church age in which the Lord says...

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. - Revelation 3:16

That tells me that when the Lord looks down from heaven and sees all the corruption going on from the family all the way to the top he gets sick to his stomach. Just like it does me when I drive by my once nice house to find a disaster area. This is what becomes sin to man.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. - revelation 3

So God's plan is to rebuke and the chasten his people that we may be pure and free from the evil effects of sin. My plan for sister and nephew is to threaten them with eviction until they start doing better.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,818
✟368,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
My plan for sister and nephew is to threaten them with eviction until they start doing better.
I think that you are definately within your rights to do that. A house is an investment (not that you are all about money) but it is important to keep the up keep on it so it retains it's value. Actually a dog can do a lot of damage to floors and the basic foundation of the flooring, besides chewing on stuff. I do not know your situation, but considering that they live there for free (is that right?) I would consider telling them that they have to get rid of the dog if they do not care for the house. I know that it may sound cruel if they love the dog, but for renters we pay a lot of extra money to have a pet. I pay an additional security deposit plus additional rent each month.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you say 'well you guys are slobs and if you don't clean the place up, you'll have to move out' that is really not concrete because their idea of clean may not be yours.

But if you say that they do not care for their pet and it may be causing damage, then you are in fact protecting your investment and a pet is not a 'have to have' but a nice thing to have. So if they care about their dog, they just might clean their stuff up.

Because it's hard to argue against the damage that a pet can cause especially with their waste being in the house. That can cost thousands of dollars in carpet and floor foundation.

I would go for the dog first. Because then it will not be about their 'lifestyle' but the pet that you have graciously allowed them to have that they are not caring for.

That's my advice but of course you know your family.
 
Upvote 0

TheyCallMeDave

At your service....
Jun 19, 2012
2,854
150
Northern Florida
✟26,541.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
I want to express my confusion about Christianity at the most basic level, and why it appears to be poorly defined.

Paul laid the foundation for Christianity in 1 Corinthians 15:14 when he said that the Christian faith is worthless if Jesus hadn't risen from the dead. He is essentially saying that the foundational belief of being a Christian is the belief that Jesus rose from the dead.

But I believe the foundation is the forgiveness of sins. I would say that if sin does not exist, then Christianity would be pointless. So my question, essentially, is this: "What exactly is sin?"

As I understand things, in an honest reading of the Bible, we are still under the old law because of this:

Sin is transgression against the law. Thus, without the law, there is no sin; without sin, there is no forgiveness; without forgiveness, there is no Christianity. Therefore, without the law there is no Christianity.

Furthermore, the early confusion on whether or not to include gentiles in the faith can be attributed to the hypothesis that Jesus was thought to have provided forgiveness from transgression of the old law, and forgiveness of such transgression would be irrelevant if we were not under the old law. If, instead, it is the case that Jesus has rid of us the old law, then I would think that Jesus' sacrifice would actually make us sinless rather than forgiven. But as far as I understand things, Christians claim to be forgiven, and not sinless, which begs the question: "Forgiven of what?"

I recognize sin as transgression against the law, which is laid out plainly in the Torah. Yet there is not a single Christian on earth who adheres to the old law. Even if Jesus replaced the sin offering required in the old law, there are still friendship offerings and all kinds of other animal sacrifices required which do not pertain to actual forgiveness of sins. Also there are quite a few laws which we do not and will never observe.

The approach taken by 100% of all Christians is that the Old Testament is done away with because Jesus established a new covenant. While Jesus had to follow the old law to the letter, he has liberated us from that burden. But the obvious question, then, is what I asked above: "What exactly is sin?"

Is sin the disobedience of Mark 12:30-31? Is that the entire law as laid out in the New Testament? It seems clear that Paul's comments on the new law do not constitute the entire summary of the new law but rather are situational rebukes of churches which have gone astray, which means we do not have the entire view of what the new law is, which means that the law is poorly defined, which means that the terms of Christianity are poorly defined.

Is the law simply written on our hearts? Are we to follow our own conscience? This is secular humanism; this leads us astray from objective morality and deep into subjective morality. Yet I would think that if God is so holy that he cannot be in the presence of sin, then sin has some objective quality to it.

So in conclusion, it is apparent to me that either:

1.) We are all still under the old law, and are making no attempt at upholding it; or

2.) We are under a new law which is so poorly defined that it cannot be said with certainty what is or isn't sin

Both Jesus dying on the cross and forgiveness of sins is what the Gospel is and contains, so, your right on both counts. The basic theme of Christianity is redemption of mankind back to a holy gracefilled Creator , and, that's the Gospel that saves.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,584
29,134
Pacific Northwest
✟815,033.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
I want to express my confusion about Christianity at the most basic level, and why it appears to be poorly defined.

Paul laid the foundation for Christianity in 1 Corinthians 15:14 when he said that the Christian faith is worthless if Jesus hadn't risen from the dead. He is essentially saying that the foundational belief of being a Christian is the belief that Jesus rose from the dead.

But I believe the foundation is the forgiveness of sins. I would say that if sin does not exist, then Christianity would be pointless. So my question, essentially, is this: "What exactly is sin?"

As I understand things, in an honest reading of the Bible, we are still under the old law because of this:

Sin is transgression against the law. Thus, without the law, there is no sin; without sin, there is no forgiveness; without forgiveness, there is no Christianity. Therefore, without the law there is no Christianity.

Furthermore, the early confusion on whether or not to include gentiles in the faith can be attributed to the hypothesis that Jesus was thought to have provided forgiveness from transgression of the old law, and forgiveness of such transgression would be irrelevant if we were not under the old law. If, instead, it is the case that Jesus has rid of us the old law, then I would think that Jesus' sacrifice would actually make us sinless rather than forgiven. But as far as I understand things, Christians claim to be forgiven, and not sinless, which begs the question: "Forgiven of what?"

I recognize sin as transgression against the law, which is laid out plainly in the Torah. Yet there is not a single Christian on earth who adheres to the old law. Even if Jesus replaced the sin offering required in the old law, there are still friendship offerings and all kinds of other animal sacrifices required which do not pertain to actual forgiveness of sins. Also there are quite a few laws which we do not and will never observe.

The approach taken by 100% of all Christians is that the Old Testament is done away with because Jesus established a new covenant. While Jesus had to follow the old law to the letter, he has liberated us from that burden. But the obvious question, then, is what I asked above: "What exactly is sin?"

Is sin the disobedience of Mark 12:30-31? Is that the entire law as laid out in the New Testament? It seems clear that Paul's comments on the new law do not constitute the entire summary of the new law but rather are situational rebukes of churches which have gone astray, which means we do not have the entire view of what the new law is, which means that the law is poorly defined, which means that the terms of Christianity are poorly defined.

Is the law simply written on our hearts? Are we to follow our own conscience? This is secular humanism; this leads us astray from objective morality and deep into subjective morality. Yet I would think that if God is so holy that he cannot be in the presence of sin, then sin has some objective quality to it.

So in conclusion, it is apparent to me that either:

1.) We are all still under the old law, and are making no attempt at upholding it; or

2.) We are under a new law which is so poorly defined that it cannot be said with certainty what is or isn't sin

I think what can be confusing is conflating Law and Torah as always being the same thing.

The Torah was given exclusively to the Israelites as part of their covenant with God. It was never for anyone other than the Israelite.

But that doesn't mean that there aren't things which God expected out of people generally. For Christians the Torah is not applicable since it was for a specific people within a specific context, the covenant God made with Israel at Mt. Sinai. That doesn't mean there is no Law that Christians aren't expected to recognize.

To put it another way, all Torah is Law, but not all Law is Torah. For example Christ commands, "Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, pray for those who persecute you." That isn't a commandment in the Torah, but that is a commandment from God and is therefore Law.

The "old law" as you put it isn't "done away", it's simply not applicable for those who aren't under the covenant which God made at Sinai; for the ancient Church that covenant--indeed all of the covenants and promises made in the past--have their fullness and fulfillment in Christ, they point to Christ.

For Lutherans we speak of the Three Uses of the Law:

"Since the Law was given to men for three reasons: first, that thereby outward discipline might be maintained against wild, disobedient men [and that wild and intractable men might be restrained, as though by certain bars]; secondly, that men thereby may be led to the knowledge of their sins; thirdly, that after they are regenerate and [much of] the flesh notwithstanding cleaves to them, they might on this account have a fixed rule according to which they are to regulate and direct their whole life," - The Epitome of the Formula of Concord, Article VI

In Lutheran parlance, which I believe is helpful, the reality of human sin and concupiscence is what is called "homo incurvatus in se" or "man curved inward upon himself". Concupiscence is the inward, selfish desire, which leads to acts of sin; in Lutheran teaching this concupiscence is itself sin. Sin is man bent inward, man curved or bent to himself, to seek himself; this is in contradistinction to God's Law which calls and commands man outward, toward the love of God and neighbor (Matthew 22:37-40, Mark 12:29-31); God's Law calls us out to act justly and rightly toward our neighbor, to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give drink to the thirsty, to care for the widow and the orphan.

We fail to act justly, that is sin. We fail to act lovingly, that is sin.

We do not love the Lord our God.
We do not love our neighbor as ourselves.
So that is sin.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Like
Reactions: RDKirk
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
41
California
✟156,979.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Jesus of course has written His Word on our hearts.

That is probably why we do not need all the extra laws that the Jewish people follow. They can come to Christ themselves and the Lord will do that for them also.

I'm sorry but I find that to be entirely insufficient.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
41
California
✟156,979.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
The Torah is holy, righteous, and good, Jesus kept it perfectly, and we are told to follow his example. Some passages need to be studied in order to understand the Jewish cultural context and can seem strange when they are not understood.

Go on...
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
41
California
✟156,979.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
It's ok.

To Christians, Jesus is the perfect Image of God. Meaning, He is the one that shows us what God is actually like.

Jesus, in His life & teachings, gives us examples to follow - examples of how to "behave" as you inquire. The Gospels cover this with specific examples, but broadly we are called to "behave" in a way that loves & serves others.

When we love & serve others, Christians believe we grow spiritually to be more like Jesus. Meaning, the image of God in us begins to be restored (remember "theosis" from my first post?).

When we fail to love & serve others, we fall short of the example Jesus set for us & therefore fall short of God's image. That's sin.

If you're after a specific list of "sins" or of good or bad "behaviors," the Bible broadly gives examples, but it's not always a black & white matter, which complicates giving any sort of concrete list.

So the answer is that no, there is no precise definition of sin, despite the fact that God will cite sin as the reason billions of souls will go to hell?
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
41
California
✟156,979.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Are you really concerned about that? Is this something you're really concerned about, or are you just entertaining yourself?

You start off by suggesting that I shouldn't bother asking this question, now you ask if I'm doing so for my own amusement.

Look, if you don't want to help, why are you browsing the "Struggles by non-Christians" section?
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
41
California
✟156,979.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Well you can start with the 10 Commandments. It is putting your will or desires above another person and intruding on that other persons basic humanity in God's eyes.

I would like to hear what the OP thinks sin is since we all have our idea of what it is it's just hard to put into words.

I already said what I think sin is:

"I recognize sin as transgression against the law, which is laid out plainly in the Torah."

The reason I am here asking this question is because my view of sin is entirely in the minority, so I want to know what I'm missing or if you all have acquired a better definition.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.