Christianity... and the fact of evolution

[Colter]

There are 44 prophesies of Jesus in the Old Testament.
The old testament was written before the time of Christ.
Christ used the scriptures of the OT and quoted them in His teaching and as His arguments against the temptations He faced from Satan himself in the desert.


Your argument and view that they were redacted and edited in order to fit some predetermined agenda is false.

The Holy Bible IS the word of God. God breathed. God inspired. God ordained. The ONLY scripture that Christians found their faith on. The words that are the ones mentioned when Christ stated

Matthew 24:35King James Version (KJV)

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

As in any argument with individuals that dismantle these scriptures as a way of eroding our basis for our arguments and supporting their own human ignorance and arrogance, it is fruitless. I am now done with this thread.

My views and beliefs are solidly based on this book of books. If anything contradicts these scriptures, I go with the scriptures. This is certainly the case for ANY blabbering of men, science, or delusions of either.

Good day.

I told you a long time ago that we weren't going to agree. Book worshipers put their faith in the Book because it's easier than faith in God as Jesus taught.

 

[AV1611VET]

The 1829 Jasher heavily contradicts the Bible books...

Is it a science book?

 

[Colter]

Is it a science book?

From the Nazarenes:


The 1829 Jasher

We shall examine the two versions of Jasher by treating each individually and in order of publication. Concerning Jasher-1829 (the alleged “Alcuin” version), we find it replete with outright contradictions to the Bible. We found the following and offer them as examples:

(1) Instead of spending 40 days on Mt. Sinai receiving instruction from Yahweh-God, as the Bible states; according to Jasher-1829 (chapter 17), Moses and Joshua and Nadab and Abihu and 70 elders spent 40 days on the mount receiving instruction from Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law. Furthermore, this Jasher claims that Jethro was the son of Esau, Israel’s enemy for the ages. The Bible, on the other hand, states that Jethro was the priest of Midian. Midian was one of the six sons of Abraham through Keturah, whom he took to wife after the death of Sarah.

(2) According to Jasher-1829, it is Jethro who instructs Moses how to build the tabernacle and Jethro who tells Moses to build an ark. Jethro also tells Moses to choose a priesthood family. Moses chooses Aaron and his sons, and it is Jethro who tells Moses to clothe them with holy garments. (Jasher 17:8-13). The Bible says God instructed Moses in all these things.

(3) When the 40 days are over, Moses conspires with Joshua and the others and suggests that when they go down off Mt. Sinai to the people, that they had better tell them that they had been meeting with the Lord, when in reality it was only Jethro. There is no mention anywhere of meeting with Yahweh on Mt. Sinai. (1829-Jasher 17:21-22)

(4) The Bible says that Aaron’s sons, Nadab and Abihu, were killed by fire from Yahweh for offering “strange fire” on the altar and this was long after the golden calf rebellion. Jasher-1829 says the pair were slain by the sword of the Levites at the command of Moses as part of the 3,000 killed for their part in the golden calf rebellion (although the golden calf is not mentioned in Jasher). (1829-Jasher 18:5, 6)

(5) In the matter of the rebellion of Korah, Dathan and Abiram, the Bible tells us that the Lord caused the earth to open up and swallow up them and about 250 fellow rebels in a fiery abyss. This 1829-Jasher, in contrast, asserts that Moses instructed the Levites to execute the rebels “with fire.” (Jasher 21: 12.)

(6) Bible scholars debate on whether or not Rahab of Jericho was a prostitute or not. This Jasher raises her status even beyond that of ordinary subject of the king. It states she was a “princess” who was born of an Israelite father and a Midianite mother. This account has the enraged king of Jericho merely calling her a harlot in a fit of anger for her having tried to persuade him to surrender to Joshua. (1829-Jasher 27:8, 10, 20.)

Reflecting further, one wonders how Rahab could be a princess, since her alleged Israelite father could not have been a king (Saul was Israel’s first king) and no mention is made of her mother being a queen of Midian. And if she were princess of Midian, what was she doing living in Jericho?

(7) The crossing of the Jordan in 1829-Jasher, chapter 28, affords several more examples of blatant contradictions to the Scripture. Jasher avers that the children of Israel were 50 cubits behind the ark, instead of 2,000 as Scripture records. Also, Scripture states that the priests had to stand in the middle of Jordan bearing the ark as the people crossed over. Jasher says it took six days to cross over... a rather ridiculous statement in view of the width of the Jordan as compared to the presumably much wider Red Sea which they crossed over in one night. And pity those poor Levite priests who had to hold up the (very heavy) ark of the covenant for six full days.

(8) Moreover, the Bible asserts plainly that the waters of Jordan receded and the people went over on dry ground. Jasher says they went across Jordan on wood which floated on the face of the waters! (Jasher 28:10) You figure that one out. ... Oh, I get it. This is where the Israelites invented surfboards! Verse 5 of this chapter claims that 16-year-old males were armed. However, all throughout Scripture, only those males 20 years old and upward were numbered in the armies of Israel.

(9) Concerning the siege and storming of Jericho, the Bible says the city was “straitly shut up because of the children of Israel: none went out, and none came in.” This implies that most if not all the inhabitants remained within the walls and were subsequently slaughtered by Joshua and company. Jasher 28:18 states that “the people of Jericho fled from the city; every one to the mountains.”

(10) Finally, according to this 1829-Jasher (chapter 32), it was long after – years after the entry in Canaanland – after the conquest, after the division of the land among the Israelite families, after the establishment of the 48 Levitical cities; it was allegedly after all this that old Joshua gets around to having all the males circumcised. The Scripture, however, clearly states that all the males of Israel were circumcized almost immediately after the crossing of Jordan (Joshua 5) and before the attack on Jericho.

Verdict on the 1829 Book of Jasher

We could on with other examples, but this is certainly sufficient to label the 1829-Jasher as a fraud and a fake. That was an easy one, and we have found no one (save the forger) who claims it is authentic. For example, The Popular and Critical Bible Encyclopedia offers this history and denunciation of it."

 

[AV1611VET]

From the Nazarenes:

I'm sorry, Colter, I'm not going to read thirteen paragraphs in the place of a simple YES or NO answer.

That's what scientists expect us to do.

And I'm not interested what the Nazarenes say about it.

What does Colter say?

YEA or NAY?

 

[Colter]

I'm sorry, Colter, I'm not going to read thirteen paragraphs in the place of a simple YES or NO answer.

That's what scientists expect us to do.

And I'm not interested what the Nazarenes say about it.

What does Colter say?

YEA or NAY?

No, the book of Jasher is more Hebrew story telling.

 

[JacksBratt]

I told you a long time ago that we weren't going to agree. Book worshipers put their faith in the Book because it's easier than faith in God as Jesus taught.

I didn't say I "worshiped" the book. I said that the book is written by the one I worship and should be accepted as such.
But.......you can keep spouting your slander and presumptions and put words in other peoples mouths if that justifies your "true to self" and "letting your heart be your guide" way of life.

 

[Colter]

I didn't say I "worshiped" the book. I said that the book is written by the one I worship and should be accepted as such.
But.......you can keep spouting your slander and presumptions and put words in other peoples mouths if that justifies your "true to self" and "letting your heart be your guide" way of life.

I think you are projecting some of your own behavior onto me. After reading your replys to my post you insit on hearing what I didn't say????

Anyway, the religious fanatics who rejected Jesus were following their "book written by the one I worship and should be accepted as such", those who believed were courageous enough to follow their hearts.

Jesus left the spirit of truth for us to follow.

 

[Indent]

It was a good discussion ladies and gents.

I've concluded that there's no solid and substantive theological position to take against the fact of evolution.

 

[giftofGod2]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet (it is a very long thread and I want to put in my two cents), but 1 Timothy 6:20 says,

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so-called.

Those who would say that evolition is a fact are not getting the fact that is is not called "The Scientific Law of Evolution" It is still scientifically identifed as a Theory, although there are those, who "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" (Romans 1:21-23, the theory of evolution prophesied), would try to teach from their positions as College Professors or even as teachers of younger students that it is completely scientific and that they have scientifically disproved the existence of God by giving an alternate theory for how the earth is created, as if an exploding airplane could produce a million watches in the complexity that watches are made in.

I contend that the theory of evolution falls under the category of that which is falsely called science.

 

[JCFantasy23]

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[Indent]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet (it is a very long thread and I want to put in my two cents), but 1 Timothy 6:20 says,

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so-called.

Those who would say that evolition is a fact are not getting the fact that is is not called "The Scientific Law of Evolution" It is still scientifically identifed as a Theory, although there are those, who "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" (Romans 1:21-23, the theory of evolution prophesied), would try to teach from their positions as College Professors or even as teachers of younger students that it is completely scientific and that they have scientifically disproved the existence of God by giving an alternate theory for how the earth is created, as if an exploding airplane could produce a million watches in the complexity that watches are made in.

I contend that the theory of evolution falls under the category of that which is falsely called science.

It’s fascinating that Christians that know nothing about science be so bold in their statements.

There isn’t some hierarchy of scientific terms. It’s not like scientific theories grow up to become laws.

Where a scientific law describes an observation, scientific theories explains the phenomenon.

There are all kinds of scientific facts or “laws”, that's cute and all, but scientific theories are the real reason to get excited. It's far more useful and powerful to explain a phenomenon than to make note of it.

But thanks for quote mining the Bible.

 

[Anguspure]

WE dont have the original to compare. The 1829 Jasher heavily contradicts the Bible books......but maybe its the Bible books that are wrong and not Jasher? The 1840 Jasher is less contradictory. Remember, this is one of a number of books sourced by the Bible books that no longer exist. The secular history books of the Israelites such as "The Doings of The Kings of Israel" and "The Doings of the Kings of Judah" vanished.

It never ceases to astound me that simply because authors contradict each other their authenticity is put in question when all experience tells us that perfectly matching accounts of anything are almost certainly a sign of plagarism. Contradictions or differnces in any text might mean that one of the authors is wrong but is no indication of inauthenticy.

 

[pat34lee]

Where did THAT come from? Could you show one scientific experiment not repeatable?

I'll get back to other stuff. This was quick. And it isn't talking about
fly-by-night publications, but top scientific journals.

http://www.jove.com/blog/2012/05/03...e-articles-are-reproducible-what-is-happening

Is it bad science, or something worse, like falsifying the tests and results?
Money is a motive for cheating, and there are some high dollar grants
available for those who get noticed.

 

[Colter]

It never ceases to astound me that simply because authors contradict each other their authenticity is put in question when all experience tells us that perfectly matching accounts of anything are almost certainly a sign of plagarism. Contradictions or differnces in any text might mean that one of the authors is wrong but is no indication of inauthenticy.

Ok, I'm confused, the Book of Jasher was first mentioned in the Bible during the reign of King David, 1000 BCE, are we talking about the same book of Jasher?

 

[pat34lee]

There are unethical practices in some biopharmaceutical companies, for example, and it's obvious that there is a social aspect to "science." There are problems.

That said, to claim evolution and climate as "hoaxes" is just idiotic.

You also failed to acknowledge the unethical and scandalous issues surrounding politics, money, and Christian institutions.

Just because the Discovery Institute disseminates false and misleading information, or Christians are responsible for all kinds of violence and horror, do we claim that the Christian enterprise is illegitimate?

Hoax: something intended to deceive or defraud
Evolution = deceit by people out to deny God
man-made climate change = fraud by governments out to control businesses and us

When there is a thread on Christian Institution scandals, we can bring that up.

 

[Anguspure]

Ok, I'm confused, the Book of Jasher was first mentioned in the Bible during the reign of King David, 1000 BCE, are we talking about the same book of Jasher?

I would hope so and there is reason to believe that the text that we have, although almost certainly old and altered over the centuries was originally the Book of the Righteous (Jasher). The language is right and the book says the things that the Bible says it does.
This is not carefully preserved scripture we are talking about here. It is an ancient book that is subject to all of the vaguaries and copying errors of history so I don't think that anything written is authoritive and some of it is downright fantastic, but it is an indication of what may have been as a compliment to the Torah.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

I'll get back to other stuff. This was quick. And it isn't talking about fly-by-night publications, but top scientific journals.

http://www.jove.com/blog/2012/05/03...e-articles-are-reproducible-what-is-happening
- - - -
Money is a motive for cheating, and there are some high dollar grants
available for those who get noticed.

Did you notice the article discusses ONLY pharmaceutical research? Allow me to refresh your memory of what you posted:

Have you ever heard that the best run scientific experiments are not repeatable most of the time?

No qualifications to subject, just a statement regarding 'scientific experiments'.
By the way, in the website they alter their claim to 10 to 30% of experiments (in the bio-medical field) are reproducible. I have not had time to investigate just exactly who funds them and what axe they grind and I probably won't; I've got enough on my plate.

So you'll agree this does not apply to astronomy, nuclear physics, particle physics, quantum mechanics, cosmology or chemistry in general? Yes or No?

Do you see how misleading is the statement you posted?

Is it bad science, or something worse, like falsifying the tests and results?

Could it be bias on the part of the party deciding if the tests reproduced the proper results?

 

[pat34lee]

The theory of evolution of itself has no moral value, one way or another. There are atheists who attempt to pretend there is no God by it, and 'religionists' who lie about it without any knowledge and then attempt to pretend all science is therefore a fraud.

You seem to be hung up on the pharmaceutical industry.

Except 'evolution' is not part of that arrangement, Pat. Charles Darwin is credited (blamed?) for the theory of evolution, but he wasn't the first. There were other scientists prior to that. Charles Darwin died in 1882 and was English; so there's little chance the U. S. Government did much funding in that process.

There is most assuredly a faction in the U. S. Government who wants to suppress Christianity. If they use 'evolution' as a means of doing so, it is only because Christians have already done it. The lies concerning evolution and the age and history of the Earth and Universe are constantly being exposed and young people are disgusted at those lies.

Right here in River City.

Actually, evolution as a hoax was supported by several overlapping
groups: humanists, freethinkers and progressivists; all of whom
wanted God out of the picture. Communists, atheists and leftists
have since jumped on board. The purpose was to replace God not
only today, but wipe out memory of him by replacing him with gods
of time, chance and nature.

Why don't I trust the drug companies very far? Because they work for
the government, even though they are the ones paying. Even without
that, they have a history, even in the New Testament. See what you think.

https://truedsicernment.com/2007/07/09/on-the-greek-word-pharmakia/

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Actually, evolution as a hoax was supported by several overlapping groups: humanists, freethinkers and progressivists; all of whom wanted God out of the picture. Communists, atheists and leftists have since jumped on board. The purpose was to replace God not only today, but wipe out memory of him by replacing him with gods of time, chance and nature.

So you accept the hoax of those who value complete ignorance in Christians. I find that sad.

Why don't I trust the drug companies very far? Because they work for the government, even though they are the ones paying.

I see.

Even without that, they have a history, even in the New Testament. See what you think.
https://truedsicernment.com/2007/07/09/on-the-greek-word-pharmakia/

Yes, I am aware of the word and the connection to witchcraft.

I did a bit of reading in 'true discernment' and of course, 'true discernment' is what the writer thinks. I think his tinfoil hat is a bit tight. Aspirins are the work of Satan? Amazing.

You might seriously consider Jesus' words in John's Gospel, chapter eight, verses 31 and 32:
31 Then Jesus said to those Judeans who had believed him, “If you continue to follow my teaching, you are really my disciples 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Freedom from strange, constricting myths among other things.

 

[pat34lee]

Did you notice the article discusses ONLY pharmaceutical research? Allow me to refresh your memory of what you posted:No qualifications to subject, just a statement regarding 'scientific experiments'.
By the way, in the website they alter their claim to 10 to 30% of experiments (in the bio-medical field) are reproducible. I have not had time to investigate just exactly who funds them and what axe they grind and I probably won't; I've got enough on my plate.

So you'll agree this does not apply to astronomy, nuclear physics, particle physics, quantum mechanics, cosmology or chemistry in general? Yes or No?

Did I mention those fields? I am pretty sure I kept my comments limited to about 3 fields.
But no, that isn't true on ONLY pharma. The third paragraph was about psychology, which
is the field that began the hunt for cheaters because they found so many unrepeatable
articles. Then they said, is it just psychology? No, it wasn't.

http://phys.org/news/2016-04-scientists-problem.html

That's one of the many problems I have with evolution, too. Not only is it not falsifiable,
there is nothing that can be observed, tested and repeated, except that which proves
heredity and common design, not common descent.