Christianity... and the fact of evolution

klutedavid

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I find your position to be disturbing in that if you reject biblical inerrancy then you have opened up a huge can of worms so that you become the judge of what is useful in the Bible and what is not. When faced with such an inconvenient story as the virgin birth of Jesus Christ, which is patently contradictory to scientific reality, do you reject it? If so, who was the actual father of Jesus Christ?
Hello bbb.

You may be over reacting to the previous post. I do not think that the virgin
birth of Jesus, has anything to do with this matter. The virgin birth carries a
strong doctrinal necessity, where as the idea that every line of scripture was
written by God, is clearly not true.
 
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klutedavid

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Hi Indent,

In response to your question, I reconcile the Bible with both my faith and my understanding of ToE by taking the hermeneutical path of Conrad Hyers and/or those at BioLogos [link here], along with various other Christian voices who take science seriously, as well as hearken to the supremacy of God's Word.

I don't think this issue is as a big a deal as many make it out to be, and I personally don't think this theological field of discussion should be one that causes us to bash each other over the head when trying to delineate our various viewpoints. What's most important is that we come to recognize that humanity is sinful and that we are each individually in need of God's redemption through Jesus Christ.

Whatever happened in primordial chaos as God's Spirit "hovered over it" isn't something for us to be overly concerned about---besides, those things from the prehistoric past can't do anything for us in taking us into the future with Christ as our Savior, other than to move us to contemplate His role as Creator.

Peace
2PhiloVoid
Hello PV.

Very well written, the emphasis is where it should be, 'redemption through Jesus Christ'.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Hello bbb.

You may be over reacting to the previous post. I do not think that the virgin
birth of Jesus, has anything to do with this matter. The virgin birth carries a
strong doctrinal necessity, where as the idea that every line of scripture was
written by God, is clearly not true.

Perhaps. However, I was raised in a UPCUSA church, which is the same denomination as Hedrick. My church was directly associated with a seminary (Dubuque) in which the inerrancy of scripture was rejected for much the same reasons as Hedrick. Several theologians at the seminary also dismissed the Virgin Birth as a scientific impossibility.
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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I have not seen anyone demonstrate a new creature evolving from another creature, only variations of the same kind of creature, so to claim evolution as fact is in my mind, entirely ludicrous.
If anything micro-evolution is a reality to me. God didn't spawn the over 300 breeds of dogs when He created dogs.
 
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hedrick

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Perhaps. However, I was raised in a UPCUSA church, which is the same denomination as Hedrick. My church was directly associated with a seminary (Dubuque) in which the inerrancy of scripture was rejected for much the same reasons as Hedrick. Several theologians at the seminary also dismissed the Virgin Birth as a scientific impossibility.
Just to be clear, I think there are some reasonable objections of the Virgin Birth. As noted, they can't be discussed here. But saying that it is scientifically impossible isn't a reasonable argument, because it would make any kind of involvement by God in the world impossible.

There are certainly theologians who take that position. No doubt there are some at Dubuque. In fact one of our former pastors was that way. But I don't think most of those who reject inerrancy do so because they reject the idea of God doing things in the world. Rather, they think that God called Israel and sent his son, and the Bible was written by people in response to that. As with most questions, there are extremes on both ends. We don't need to adopt inerrancy to avoid the opposite extreme.
 
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ViaCrucis

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If evolution is one of the strongest explanatory theories in any academic field, I mean, the evidence is simply overwhelming, how do Christians reconcile this?

I don't know that there's much to reconcile. There's nothing in the historic Christian faith that makes accepting the science of evolution a problem. Many of the leading figures in the scientific fields which have aided in our understanding of evolution have been devout, believing Christians.

What about the Biblical scholars that generally dismiss Genesis as a "historical" representation... but rather "myth" (however you want to define that)?

I don't think "dismiss" is the right word; but understanding that the early chapters of Genesis aren't supposed to be taken as literal history, but as theology, and thus "myth" is a pretty good term to describe the sort of writing it is.

I understand I'm courting "controversy" here, but I'd genuinely like to hear this, supposedly, untouchable theological answer.

It's not untouchable, it's really just not a problem for many (arguably most) Christians. The only Christians who really have a problem with the science are those who subscribe to the idea of Young Earth Creationism and/or biblical literalism--neither are intrinsically Christian ideas (that is, they are not necessary components of Christian teaching, but are opinions held among some Christians).

Non-literal readings of the creation story (stories) have always been one of the principal ways Christians have read and understood the texts, going back to Origen and St. Augustine (for example).

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Armoured

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I know to you what the Bible says is false to you. But to many that's how we see creation. If you can believe something with so many gaps. more power to you. I just have not got enough faith to accept it all started by something ona rock form outer space.
What do you mean "we"? The vast majority of Christians have no problem accepting evolution.
 
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Armoured

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I have not seen anyone demonstrate a new creature evolving from another creature, only variations of the same kind of creature, so to claim evolution as fact is in my mind, entirely ludicrous.
Maybe you should try to understand what evolution predicts and how it's observed before making such declarations?
 
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Indent

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The Christians I know are of the evangelical variety (at least most would be considered "fundamentalist").

The so-called "Biblical Christian", as I'm told, cannot accept evolution. It comes with all kinds of accusations (compromiser, liberal, "other gospel", if not outright condemnation).

If there is some undeniable theological position, I want to hear it. It seems to me Christians are asking questions of evolution because their culture is telling them to ask them. I believe in God and therefore believe He is part of the processes. There is good reason to believe evolution happened, and there is good reasons to not view the opening chapters as a journalistic account of material origins.

I don't see how evolution is incompatible with Christianity.

It's tiresome to witness Christians antagonize evolution. There are people so preoccupied with correctness and certitude, one must wonder if God is being diminished. I met a person that had "refuted" all the arguments in the Bill Nye/Ken Ham debate. When that seemed curious to me, I inquired me into this claim. But he "forgot." I reminded him. The confident Christian had become strangely inarticulate.

He even tried to back peddle on me. This was a chemical engineering student at a prestigious school who, it seems to me, was dishonest and misleading. It seems to me that this kind of thing is celebrated in some Christian circles.
 
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hedrick

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The Christians I know are of the evangelical variety (at least most would be considered "fundamentalist").

The so-called "Biblical Christian", as I'm told, cannot accept evolution. It comes with all kinds of accusations (compromiser, liberal, "other gospel", if not outright condemnation).
Yup. Standard stuff.

But your OP suggested that this was causing you to want to disengage from Christians. The main point most of us were making is that your problem is with a particular Christian subculture, not all of Christianity. It's not hard to find people who aren't like that.
 
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BrianJK

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The Christians I know are of the evangelical variety (at least most would be considered "fundamentalist").

The so-called "Biblical Christian", as I'm told, cannot accept evolution. It comes with all kinds of accusations (compromiser, liberal, "other gospel", if not outright condemnation).

If there is some undeniable theological position, I want to hear it. It seems to me Christians are asking questions of evolution because their culture is telling them to ask them. I believe in God and therefore believe He is part of the processes. There is good reason to believe evolution happened, and there is good reasons to not view the opening chapters as a journalistic account of material origins.

I don't see how evolution is incompatible with Christianity.

It's tiresome to witness Christians antagonize evolution. There are people so preoccupied with correctness and certitude, one must wonder if God is being diminished. I met a person that had "refuted" all the arguments in the Bill Nye/Ken Ham debate. When that seemed curious to me, I inquired me into this claim. But he "forgot." I reminded him. The confident Christian had become strangely inarticulate.

He even tried to back peddle on me. This was a chemical engineering student at a prestigious school who, it seems to me, was dishonest and misleading. It seems to me that this kind of thing is celebrated in some Christian circles.

To me, there is no incompatibility. I wrestled with it for a bit, mostly because I didn't question what others presented as a litmus test for Christian orthodoxy. However, Scripture itself tells me to test others teachings, and this as such a litmus test didn't pass the Scriptural scrutiny.

I can see where creationists are coming from, and gladly fellowship with those creationists who are willing to fellowship with theistic evolutionists.

For me, is hard to make a final decision regarding which passages of Scripture are allowed to be allegorical or symbolic and which are only taken that way by heretics. I've come to my own conclusions through prayer and study.

Nobody can say they take nothing symbolically. Daniel's 70 weeks are rarely considered literal weeks. Jesus said He was the door, but nobody I know pictures Him as a literal door. So there are symbols. We can argue all day about which are symbolic which are literal. That's not my purpose here. I'm just saying that there are plenty of faithful Christians who are fine with the six days in Genesis being just as representative of other lengths of time as the seventy weeks in Daniel are often interpreted.
 
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mark kennedy

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If evolution is one of the strongest explanatory theories in any academic field, I mean, the evidence is simply overwhelming, how do Christians reconcile this?

What about the Biblical scholars that generally dismiss Genesis as a "historical" representation... but rather "myth" (however you want to define that)?

I understand I'm courting "controversy" here, but I'd genuinely like to hear this, supposedly, untouchable theological answer.
Evolution is the change of alleles in populations over time, not the assumption of universal common descent going back to and including the Big Bang. Evolution, especially adaptive evolution isn't a theory, it's a phenomenon in nature. All we know about the original creation is that it was in the beginning, creation week follows when God creates life on this planet. Evolution is a living theory that starts when life is created, whether by naturalistic or miraculous means. The controversy is not between creation and evolution but between creation and Darwinism. I would ask your patience in enduring a lengthy quote:

Lamarck was the first man whose conclusions on the subject excited much attention. This justly-celebrated naturalist first published his views in 1801; he much enlarged them in 1809 in his "Philosophie Zoologique,' and subsequently, in 1815, in the Introduction to his "Hist. Nat. des Animaux sans Vertébres.' In these works he upholds the doctrine that species, including man, are descended from other species. He first did the eminent service of arousing attention to the probability of all change in the organic, as well as in the inorganic world, being the result of law, and not of miraculous interposition. Lamarck seems to have been chiefly led to his conclusion on the gradual change of species, by the difficulty of distinguishing species and varieties, by the almost perfect gradation of forms in certain groups, and by the analogy of domestic productions. With respect to the means of modification, he attributed something to the direct action of the physical conditions of life, something to the crossing of already existing forms, and much to use and disuse, that is, to the effects of habit. To this latter agency he seemed to attribute all the beautiful adaptations in nature; — such as the long neck of the giraffe for browsing on the branches of trees. But he likewise believed in a law of progressive development; and as all the forms of life thus tend to progress, in order to account for the existence at the present day of simple productions, he maintains that such forms are now spontaneously generated. (Charles Darwin, On the Origin of Species)
More then anything else I am convinced this statement clarifies the issues involved. A categorical rejection of special and miraculous creation is at the heart of the controversy. Darwin's seminal work defined the theory of evolution as we have come to know it, this has never been about science and religion. Darwin's theory of natural selection includes and is predicated on one long argument against special creation:

I can entertain no doubt, after the most deliberate study and dispassionate judgement of which I am capable, that the view which most naturalists entertain, and which I formerly entertained — namely, that each species has been independently created — is erroneous. I am fully convinced that species are not immutable; but that those belonging to what are called the same genera are lineal descendants of some other and generally extinct species, in the same manner as the acknowledged varieties of any one species are the descendants of that species. Furthermore, I am convinced that Natural Selection has been the main but not exclusive means of modification. (Charles Darwin, On the Origin of Species)
Darwin's idea here was never intended to include all life at all times, in fact, he never went beyond the level of genus. The question of whether or not we evolved from ape has been the key issue for me and especially with regards to the evolution of the human brain from that of apes. As a theological issue it's impossible to reconcile Darwinism to the doctrine of Creation. That, I think, is the whole idea. There is a line of demarcation, specifically with regards to the creation of life in general and man in particular.

Darwin say an answer to a philosophical question here, or at least he thought he did:

These facts seemed to me to throw some light on the origin of species— that mystery of mysteries, as it has been called by one of our greatest philosophers. (Darwin, On the Origin of Species, Introduction)
But this mystery has already been revealed, in Genesis 1.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Ron Coates

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I believe evolution is a lie. I also believe it is the foundation for the great end-time deception. People who are deceived do not believe they are. "There is no one as blind as the blind man who believes he sees." Peace
 
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mark kennedy

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I believe evolution is a lie. I also believe it is the foundation for the great end-time deception. People who are deceived do not believe they are. "There is no one as blind as the blind man who believes he sees." Peace
The way I have always heard the expression is there is none so blind as those who will not see. Evolution is simply a phenomenon in nature, not a philosophy of natural history. What people are calling evolution is actually a philosophy of natural history called Darwinism. Equivocating the two is a mistake.
 
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Jamie Lee

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I used to be a young earth creationist until I started reading Genesis several times through. What I realized was:
1. There is nothing in it that contradicts Evolution. It says God created the world, it doesnt explain how. It could have been by evolution. The big bang theory was invented by a priest.
2. The one aspect of evolution that some Christians find threatening is the idea that the world is billions of years old. The Genesis account states it was created in 6 days and give geneologies that seem to indicate the world is less than 10,000 years old. The problem with this interpretation is:
The sun wasnt created until day 4. It states God created the sun to mark days. So, what is marking the days leading up to the suns creation? It couldnt be talking about a literal 24 hour solar revolution day because earthly days as we know them didnt exist yet. So it must be talking about heavenly days, and that could be any period of time.
The people and animals were not alive yet until Creation was finished and God breathed a soul into them. When they were finished evolving (and notice the terminology says God told the land to produce living animals, which is a passive act-he let it happen) God said it was good, and He breathed life into them, and they became living souls. This explains a lot, like why there was already a city and other people for Cain to run to when he was exiled. This is a a brief summary of my own hypothesis, but it does line up with Evolution, and explains a lot of questions in the Bible as well.
In the Jewish books of Enoch, we are given a more complete description of Creation. God says he used a super dense supernatural being called an aeon, and it exploded, and gave birth to the universe. Sounds an awful lot like the big bang. It also says that before the sun was created, God was shining light on the Earth and moving across the sky, meaning the Earth was revolving around God. Since im assuming God is waaaay bigger than our sun, im going to conclude these days lasted a lot, lot longer, possibly billions of years.
 
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klutedavid

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If anything micro-evolution is a reality to me. God didn't spawn the over 300 breeds of dogs when He created dogs.
Hello CS.

Here is an article that I read recently. Science is trying to trace the ancestry of dogs, given
the immense population of dogs worldwide. This task should not be too difficult for science,
since the evolution of dogs is very recent.

Ancient Dog Skull Shows Early Pet Domestication, 33,000-year-old fossil suggests dogs arose in
multiple places, study says.

Because it wasn't fully domesticated, the Russian dog retained some traits from its ancestors,
namely wolf-like teeth. But the animal bore no other resemblance to ancient or modern wolves
or to dog breeds from elsewhere in Russia, Kuzmin and colleagues found.

The discovery suggests that this dog began its association with humans independently from other
breeds, which would mean that dog domestication didn't have a single place of origin—contrary
to some DNA evidence, the study said.


The oldest dog fossils are at least 15,000 years old and come from Western Europe and Siberia.
But genetic studies have thrown forth hugely conflicting answers depending on whether they look
at modern DNA from living dogs or ancient DNA from fossil ones,
which parts of the world they collect
samples from, and whether they look at full genomes, specific markers, just the Y chromosome, or
just mitochondrial DNA (a secondary genome that sits outside the main one).

In 2013 alone,
a whole-genome study of living wolves and dogs argued that domestication took place
around 10,000 years ago during the Agricultural Revolution, when wolves that scavenged at humanity's
scrapheap became more accustomed to life with us. Four months later, another whole-genome study
argued that wolves were domesticated in East Asia around 32,000 years ago.
Six months after that, yet
another study—this one of mitochondrial DNA in both modern and fossil dogs—put the site of
domestication in Europe and the time somewhere between 18,000 and 32,000 years ago
. That'
s well
before the Agricultural Revolution, and suggests that wolves may have accompanied European
hunter-gatherers as either hunting partners or scavengers.


(Christine Dell'Amore, National Geographic News)
 
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Jamie Lee

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Notice the terminology. Also notice that the timeline seems to roughly match with the evolutionary timeline (first fish were created, then birds and mammals, etc)
The Creation of the World

1 In the abeginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was bwithout form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep.
---->And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.<----

3 And God said, c“Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. 5 --->God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.<---

6 And God said, d“Let there be an expanse1in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 And God made2the expanse and eseparated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were fabove the expanse. And it was so. 8 And God called the expanse Heaven.3 And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

9 And God said, g“Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry land Earth,4 and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, h---->“Let the earth <----sprout vegetation, plants5 yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. 12 ---->The earth brought forth vegetation,<---- plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.

14 And God said, “---->Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for isigns and for jseasons,6 and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.”<----- And it was so. 16 And God kmade the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. 17 And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 to lrule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, ---->the fourth day.<------

20 And God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds7 fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.” 21 So mGod created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying,n“Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day.

24 And God said, “----->Let the earth bring forth living creatures<------ according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so. 25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, o“Let us make man8 in our image, pafter our likeness. And qlet them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

27 So God created man in his own image,

in the image of God he created him;

rmale and female he created them.

I cant seem to be able to apply fonts, so arrows are added for emphasis.
 
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klutedavid

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Hello all.

One major problem that exists when comparing science and the Bible account.
Is explaining the recorded genealogy from Adam to say Moses. If the genealogy
is a literal sequence, i.e., 'son of X', then mankind's origin is very recent (less than
10,000 years). If the recorded genealogy is not a literal sequence, i.e., 'son of X',
could be grandson, or just a descendant of X. Then the Biblical genealogy accounts
can contain an undefined length of time.
 
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SteveCaruso

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It's not untouchable, it's really just not a problem for many (arguably most) Christians.

54% vs 42% among all American Christian denominations according to Pew.

Among Mainline Denominations and Catholics it's ~65% vs ~30%, so a 2/3rds majority.

Among Evangelicals it's 48% vs 57%, and with the margin of error on those groups it could even be 50/50.

So "it's not a problem for most Christians" – assuming we're talking about here in the States – is an accurate statement.
 
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