Christianity and Pickup Artists?

[Inkachu]

There IS a huge trend currently, though, of guys who are being brought up with severely lacking social skills, and they tend to turn into these frustrated, jaded, bitter young men who don't know how to approach girls and seem to view "having a girlfriend" as the be-all and end-all of existence. As if all of their problems will go away if they can just get a girl to pay attention to them. I see it EVERYWHERE, especially here on CF. It's a twisted way of thinking, because it makes girls responsible for the guy's happiness or contentment or good behavior. If girls are ignoring them, they feel justified in being angry and resentful or lashing out at them. Whether this is due to the rampant number of broken families and not seeing healthy male-female relationships as they grow up, or because we're in the technology age where kids don't learn to socialize and interact, they just grow up staring at computers, TV's, and cell phones... or a mixture of both, I don't know. But what I'm seeing isn't just normal teenage boys fighting their hormones. It's boys and young men who can't seem to function in society and are just seething with frustration, and sometimes violently so... towards women who "won't pay attention" to them. Case in point: Elliot Rodger. Chilling video: Calif. mass shooter blamed women for his rampage | NJ.com

I'm not saying the OP came across in such an extreme way, because he didn't. But the trend is still there. "I'm shy and I need to do x-y-z and girls will pay attention to me". It's not a girl's job to give you attention or make you confident. You need to find your own confidence and be able to relate to people and talk to people and find your purpose as a man, on your own, and THEN you'll be ready to consider a relationship.

 

[DreyDay]

There IS a huge trend currently, though, of guys who are being brought up with severely lacking social skills, and they tend to turn into these frustrated, jaded, bitter young men who don't know how to approach girls and seem to view "having a girlfriend" as the be-all and end-all of existence. As if all of their problems will go away if they can just get a girl to pay attention to them. I see it EVERYWHERE, especially here on CF. It's a twisted way of thinking, because it makes girls responsible for the guy's happiness or contentment or good behavior. If girls are ignoring them, they feel justified in being angry and resentful or lashing out at them. Whether this is due to the rampant number of broken families and not seeing healthy male-female relationships as they grow up, or because we're in the technology age where kids don't learn to socialize and interact, they just grow up staring at computers, TV's, and cell phones... or a mixture of both, I don't know. But what I'm seeing isn't just normal teenage boys fighting their hormones. It's boys and young men who can't seem to function in society and are just seething with frustration, and sometimes violently so... towards women who "won't pay attention" to them. Case in point: Elliot Rodger. Chilling video: Calif. mass shooter blamed women for his rampage | NJ.com

I'm not saying the OP came across in such an extreme way, because he didn't. But the trend is still there. "I'm shy and I need to do x-y-z and girls will pay attention to me". It's not a girl's job to give you attention or make you confident. You need to find your own confidence and be able to relate to people and talk to people and find your purpose as a man, on your own, and THEN you'll be ready to consider a relationship.

Very well stated. I'm so passionate about this subject I have to chime in again. I really really really really really really really think the church needs to address issues about young people developing social skills, confidence, identity, etc. Not all young people from church come from white, upper middle class, two parent families who raise them right and have them develop good social skills naturally and have a good father who helps their children be confident. I am offended at how so many things and states of mind are taken for granted at church, how nobody addresses issues about how to be more social or have more confidence.

There should be workshops or classes on Wednesday nights or whatever to supplement the sermons on Sunday. That way people who aren't brought up in the best environment can actually grow and not resent Christians who somehow God blesses more because where they come from.

Why are the social outcasts at church leaving? Why doesn't anybody encourage them to get help? Why won't somebody help guys like Roger Elliot have hope? Aren't there some capable men and women out there who can get involved in church by teaching children and teenagers not just Bible stories, but teaching young people life skills like confidence, social skills, standing up for yourself, how to get rid of social anxiety/awkwardness?

Why wasn't there anybody for me at church when I needed help the most? Why wasn't there anybody encouraging me in youth group when I was so close to killing myself because I was shy, timid, depressed, and couldn't fit in? Why did I have to resort to studying "pickup artists" in order for me to learn social skills, rid of my social anxiety, stand up for myself, be confident around girls?

Oh well it's cool I guess. Maybe the socially awkward people at church shouldn't bother studying secular material about self-improvement. They're doomed to be timid, frustrated, quietly resentful for the rest of their life because nobody's teaching it at church and if they study it outside those bounds then they're going against God's will.

 

[Goodbook]

They are not doomed. What we can do is pray for these young men to find true sisters who can accept them as brothers, and spiritual mothers and fathers and brothers who will also accept them. Jesus accepts them, so theres no reason why we cant.

Im concerned that the youth group isn't addressing this. Isn't this the point of a youth group? I never was in a youth group, because I came to Christ when I was 30. Why would you need to feel like you fit in a youth group? If the people in the youth group are all christians, then there should be no problem.

Our identity is with Christ. He gives us worth, not secular pop psychology. Once a believer learns this, he has every confidence. It may be quiet confidence, but it is still confidence. Remember we are dead, we have been crucified to our old ways and lusts, our life is now hid with Christ in God.

I did not grow up in a white middle class home either. My dad, bless him, did not teach me anything about being safe around men. My mum, bless her, did not encourage me in any way. But I'm thankful I at least had brothers and sisters. Many people from broken homes do not have brothers and sisters, or even cousins so Im guessing they are not learning any social skills from within their own family.

 

[BFine]

I learned a lot about how to interact with people from the
Word of God and through prayer and seeking God's
counsel and also from godly advisers... then I put those things
into use as I interacted with other people.

As for people who desire to help others, that's what me and my
husband strive to do at our church and with the folks in our community...
sadly we our finding that people don't actually want help.
The help they are seeking has to do with getting themselves more money
and more worldly possessions not to mention being "popular" and or landing
the the hottest guy/woman etc....and I don't mean that in a good way either!

I've witnessed many incidents of people who claimed to be in need, misuse
the funds and or provisions given to them... I've seen this time and time again
with my own family members...most recently with my older brother, who at age
60 left his wife and lives with his new girlfriend...yeah, my brother, "the preacher."
When will he stop playing games with God?
One can only diligently pray for him to "wake up."

I can count on one hand the people that wanted real help with their problems/
situations...sad but true.
I've spent thirty some odd years living in the USA and
now I've been living in Canada for twelve years, I don't see much difference in
the people who claim to need "help"....nevertheless, I keep on the lookout for those
who really want help, the kind of help that empowers them to better themselves spiritually,
emotionally and physically.

No easy life...
As many of you know...I grew up in a racist area in NC, my family lived in a shack that
didn't have indoor plumbing or electricity... my parents were simple, hard-working folks
that battled against racism and many hinderances...same goes for "us", their children.

No one kept me from achieving a better life, learning good manners, learning to interact
with people-- my reliance on the Lord made it possible for me to rise up out of abject
poverty and hindering forces to live a better way, a way that included being sincere in
my faith and actions, this took time and effort...learning those hard lessons early and not
repeating them was key. I choose to stick close to the Lord and His Word, many times it
meant being excluded but God saw me through all that.

We need to use the Bible and seek God more and more instead of less and less.

 

[parsley]

sadly we our finding that people don't actually want help.

And that's true of kids, too -- we don't remember parents teaching us things because we ran the other direction when we sensed a lecture coming on.

Parents want to tell their kids a lot, but friends are visiting, homework needs to get done, band practice ran until 7, and the kids didn't feel the parents had information they could use. Or they didn't want awkward dynamics. Class and neighborhood have little to do with wisdom and nurturing, unless parents are working too many hours to talk to their kids.

I learned a lot about how to interact with people from the
Word of God and through prayer and seeking God's
counsel and also from godly advisers... then I put those things
into use as I interacted with other people.

Good point -- I forgot what an impact that had on my social responses then! God helped me feel so much more grounded, centered. I knew what I was living for.

I really really really really really really really think the church needs to address issues about young people developing social skills, confidence, identity,

Interesting -- I always saw youth groups address the dating issues but never noticed personal development topics. There was a movement of "I am second" a while back, which ultimately helps bc when people give in to the other person, then everyone ideally wins.

There IS a huge trend currently, though, of guys who are being brought up with severely lacking social skills, and they tend to turn into these frustrated, jaded, bitter young men who don't know how to approach girls and seem to view "having a girlfriend" as the be-all and end-all of existence. As if all of their problems will go away if they can just get a girl to pay attention to them. I see it EVERYWHERE, especially here on CF.

I've noticed that too -- it's not just a theory. It's as though they see women as graphic comic characters.

To the OP, listen in on how women talk to strangers in stores. They will observe something going on around them -- long lines, crying babies... and make comments to each other. They have no agenda other than to connect briefly with another human.

Compare that to plotting to visit a coffee shop with the agenda to find someone who might possibly respond favorably to an opening line. Very contrived. You need to start talking wherever you are, and not act as though you want to hook a random fish.

A woman wants a friendship where she feels appreciated and cared about -- for who she really is, not what a man wishes she was. A friendly chat is a big deal. A set of lines like "you look hot, can I have your number?" implies you have no clue who she is and no intention of finding out.

It's not about what you can get from them.

Pretend you are an old woman gasping at the price of peas.
Busier here today than usual.
Wow, did you see that new coffeemaker?
I see more friends showed up -- do you need my extra chair?
Did someone hand knit your scarf?
Augh, I see you're reading a statistics textbook. Tough course.

Care about them.

 

[Unix]

No. No surprise to anyone, huh?:

Dont you guys have any sisters? Sheesh. Girls and women are human, just like you.

Well, I don't want a friend who is obsessed about prioritizing her time - i.e. I don't want to meet women of the same age as myself, but I want to meet younger girls - it's just easier with them. I tried becoming friends with a woman of my age, after seeing each other two times and talking on the phone several times, she gave up and said she wanted to start to prioritize her time. She was 34. I told her that's typical for the age. I suspect her boyfriend (she was single when we met) is in the Word of Faith cult, I think I'll text her to warn her about that:

Its all about motive. Its not considered 'a pickup' attempt to approach someone of the opposite sex and talking to them about a common interest such as a book or someone you both know , etc... And there is nothing wrong, morally or biblically, if that initial conversation leads to a further interest on your behalf (or both) ; in fact, it is a good low-keyed way to get an acquaintence started providing both people are in agreement to such a thing . God wants us to have friendships and acquaintences -- its just a matter of which , and with whom.

I never see any other adult people than family at work for more than three seconds. I have just one actual IRL friend who I meet regularly. Usually a whole semester passes without anyone wanting to talk to me at university. The latest semester a teacher actually started to talk to me for a few minutes:

Those skills can (and should) be learned and practiced in ALL walks of life; on the job, with friends, at school, etc.

 

[Goodbook]

We can pray for you. Just be friendly and open and God will send you someone you can be real with. Its ok to talk with someone you are standing beside while buying coffee. You can talk about the weather, or make some observation.

Dont try and flatter a girl you hardly know because that doesnt really work. Not everyone knows how to accept compliments from complete strangers, and usually women can intuit that you have a motive, if thats all you have to say is how a girl looks.
Just be kind, caring and concerned.

Eg. You are taking your pet to the vet. While waiting, you can strike up a conversation with people who are waiting about their pets.

At uni, you can join christian fellowships. Sometimes there are lunchtime prayer meetings. I know uni can be lonely and awkward, but make an effort perhaps to join some clubs, like a hiking or cycling club.

Are there international students on campus? Volunteer to help them out, they would love to have a native speaker to practise their English with. Offer to show them round town.

 

[Sketcher]

I normally dislike contributing to necro-threads, but I believe some points need to be made as to why a Christian guy would be asking these questions.

I'm in the target market for these pickup artists's books, videos, and conferences. I have not spent money on any one of them, because they all seem to be written by secular people with the worldly goal of fornication in mind. Fornication is against my values as a Christian, so is intentionally leading on women that I do not have long-range intentions around. These are good values, Christian women say that they want this in a man. However, Christian women also say they want social skills and confidence in a man. Unfortunately, I was not gifted in this area, and I live in a society that actively works to reduce confidence in people like me as part of its very fabric. Furthermore, dating emphasizes all the things I am worst at. I have confidence in my moral convictions, in my daily approach to many things, in what I do to make my living, but I do not have much confidence in social interaction, let alone in getting close to someone, especially a woman. The people who write these books and make these videos and hold these conferences know that people like me exist, and they step in with the promise of helping us overcome our lack of confidence in terms of dating. But what does the church do for us?

The church emphasizes small groups, and growing in individual piety, and participation in service. All good things, but what I have not seen is a real transfer of dating skills from the men who are strong in this area to the men who are not. There are books on dating, which mainly seem to emphasize that a man needs to keep his pants on. Well, instead of trying to persuade me into something I already believe, how about helping me with the skills needed to date successfully, for the purpose of finding a wife? (And really - stop with the self-defeating concept of telling us simultaneously that we need to wait on the Lord to give us a wife while at the same time it is our responsibility to initiate the relationship.)

I'm not saying the OP came across in such an extreme way, because he didn't. But the trend is still there. "I'm shy and I need to do x-y-z and girls will pay attention to me". It's not a girl's job to give you attention or make you confident. You need to find your own confidence and be able to relate to people and talk to people and find your purpose as a man, on your own, and THEN you'll be ready to consider a relationship.

The problem with what you are saying is that confidence is sectioned off into various areas, and built by success in those areas. I can talk to people at a platonic level. I know my purpose is to become like Christ. Dating? That's another can of worms. I have not had success with this, or various scenarios that society tells us that a boyfriend needs to step up to. Therefore, I lack confidence in this area. Telling me to just "find my own confidence" in this area of life is like telling someone with no musical ability to just play a piano concerto while giving him nothing but the piano and the notes, with no lessons. That may work with someone who is exceptionally musically gifted, but when it comes to talking to women and deepening relationships with them, I am not gifted. If you know of a way to gain confidence with women without talking to them, by all means please share it.

Dont you guys have any sisters? Sheesh. Girls and women are human, just like you.

No, I don't. Girls and women are human, but not just like me. Heck, a lot of guys aren't like me.

 

[Unix]

I go to two universities. The seminary is small. This is the most atheistic City in the world so I REALLY doubt they have that:

At uni, you can join christian fellowships. Sometimes there are lunchtime prayer meetings. I know uni can be lonely and awkward, but make an effort perhaps to join some clubs, like a hiking or cycling club.

I doubt they like my accent:

Are there international students on campus? Volunteer to help them out, they would love to have a native speaker to practice their English with. Offer to show them round town.

 

[Goodbook]

What are you studying, if you don't mind my asking? What city are you in? Whats wrong with your accent?

I find accents fascinating.

 

[Unix]

Greek, in two universities:

What are you studying, if you don't mind my asking?

12 miles north of Stockholm, the capital of Sweden:

What city are you in?

Well, I'm born in the neighbouring country, Finland, and I'm ethnically "finlandssvensk" which means that although both Swedish and Finnish are my mothers tongues, the Swedish I learnt as a child was a dialect:

Whats wrong with your accent?

I find accents fascinating.

 

[Goodbook]

Wow. You know swedish, finnish, greek and english! I'm sure you can find plenty to talk about! Perhaps you can offer your language skills to someone who is learning swedish or Finnish.

And I suppose you get lots of people asking you about ABBA?

 

[Unix]

No-one seems to want to talk to me, usually people ask me what degree I have, if I own a car or if I have a motorcycle driving-license. Women seem to look for men who joke a lot and are generous spending money on travelling.

There's really no-one here who wants to learn Finnish, everyone says it's too hard, it's from an entirely different language family:

Perhaps you can offer your language skills to someone who is learning swedish or Finnish.

 

[russianorth]

What I have learned is the church teaches stuff that does not work and if it does not work im not going to keep doing it. Church is good for already married people, its awful for single people, period.

After my divorce I should have been hooked up with single women to date by other church people but I was left to do it on my own and if im going to do it on my own im going to do it my way, because I have learned how to get results doing it my way.

 

[Angelfrog]

What I have learned is the church teaches stuff that does not work and if it does not work im not going to keep doing it. Church is good for already married people, its awful for single people, period.

After my divorce I should have been hooked up with single women to date by other church people but I was left to do it on my own and if im going to do it on my own im going to do it my way, because I have learned how to get results doing it my way.

The church isn't a dating agency, hon!
If any church had tried to 'hook me up' with a guy when I was single, I'd have walked out and never gone back. No church should be doing that sort of thing!!!!

 

[Goodbook]

Unix,
I dont know why you and all the guys here are fretting so much about dating. Dating isn't what Jesus has called us to do.

If you are following Jesus, you follow Him, you don't go chasing after women. Likewise for young women. On his timing, He will bring you the spouse He wants you to have. Don't make it hard for yourself and get disappointed with your own efforts. Dating is a complete waste of time in the scheme of things.

When you see on CF all the young women who complain about their dating 'relationships' and exs you can see all the anguish it is just not worth it. God can easily set you up with someone who He knows is perfect for you. It is a matter of simply trusting Him. Will you trust Him?

 

[Unix]

I'm neither chasing nor looking for sex. I openly state the latter: that I'm not looking for that. I don't think marriage would be a good idea at any point because I don't want anyone to ever having to pay my invoices (over here You have to if You are married, especially if there's kids from either part). I'm also not looking for living together with anyone. I happen to have a large apartment, but I also have a lot of things, I doubt anyone would like to share the apartment with me. The bus connections are not that good during summer weekends, so bicycling is necessary. There's no decent Churches nearby. The kitchen is big, but there's not much space for an extra bed, an extra bed would have to be closer to the ceiling than to the floor - I don't know what those furniture are called. I have one, but it's stuck in Helsinki City center (the capital of Finland) and there's no-one who wants to go and fetch it and a valuable book which I also have there, it has been there since 2007 - since January 2008 in vain. You would manage going to Helsinki speaking Swedish though, but Swedish people are not particularly interested in Finland and they don't know how nice Helsinki center is, there's a long beach half a mile away. I don't like buying furniture all over again, and the book can't be replaced. Also, very few in Stockholm actually have a driving license, and a fraction of them have a car. Although You can of course rent a car.
Things are progressing this slow. I've been looking for Christian friends for 3 years and got none which I wanted to keep, and no I should not be satisfied with what I can get. So far I made friends with one guy, but he's in a denomination which I don't like at all, and neither of us is gay and neither of us even accepts homosexuality altogether + he is much younger than me and not good at English.
I know it would work better with a younger woman, they are more open about meeting not fully compatible men, and they don't prioritize their time in such a weird manner and some of them are even impressed by my knowledge. Women of my age are not impressed at all they think I'm really unintelligent or extremely uneducated.
Besides, over here, being fluent in three languages is normal, of which Finnish can't be used for anything, so I actually speak fewer usable languages than the average my age and younger. My German skills are poor, I can barely read it and only speak it at a rudimentary tourist level, that's worse than what others are capable of in either French, German or Spanish. The only extra I will learn will be the Greek but it's not modern Greek.
Add my personality to the mixture, and my chances are clearly below the average despite decent looks (although I don't have muscles anymore):

Unix,
I don't know why you and all the guys here are fretting so much about dating. Dating isn't what Jesus has called us to do.

If you are following Jesus, you follow Him, you don't go chasing after women. Likewise for young women.

 

[russianorth]

God expects us to put in effort not just sit around a church building vacumming and praying. Even in out reach you have to learn to interact with people. For every woman that has had a jerk of a guy there are 2 or 3 women who have found relationship bliss they just don't talk about it because they are content.

God very rarely just drops stuff in our lap without work on our part. Guys chase women because God has compelled us to do just that in the way he made us, sorry that's just the way it is.

Unix,
I dont know why you and all the guys here are fretting so much about dating. Dating isn't what Jesus has called us to do.

If you are following Jesus, you follow Him, you don't go chasing after women. Likewise for young women. On his timing, He will bring you the spouse He wants you to have. Don't make it hard for yourself and get disappointed with your own efforts. Dating is a complete waste of time in the scheme of things.

When you see on CF all the young women who complain about their dating 'relationships' and exs you can see all the anguish it is just not worth it. God can easily set you up with someone who He knows is perfect for you. It is a matter of simply trusting Him. Will you trust Him?

 

[russianorth]

The church isn't a dating agency, hon!
If any church had tried to 'hook me up' with a guy when I was single, I'd have walked out and never gone back. No church should be doing that sort of thing!!!!

That is correct which is why its for married people. You have married people and people who are dating or the rare few eunchs. Most single guys are compelled to date and mate, that's really all there is too it and if that is not being facilitated at church then men will spend their time where they can get results.

How many single men do you see at church? Other than the occasional pop in from time to time (because they are seeing if there are any new single women around).

 

[Albion]

That is correct which is why its for married people. You have married people and people who are dating or the rare few eunchs. Most single guys are compelled to date and mate, that's really all there is too it and if that is not being facilitated at church then men will spend their time where they can get results.

How many single men do you see at church? Other than the occasional pop in from time to time (because they are seeing if there are any new single women around).

You're still talking like there's no reason for a single person to worship God, received the sacraments, or etc. because he's got to be about finding a mate. Something's desperately wrong there, friend.

You've still got eleven other hours on Sunday outside of church, and all the rest of the week.