Christianity and Free Will?

[2PhiloVoid]

I am not assuming anything, I am simply re-stating what most christians think to be true of God, and that is that he is omniscient. By definition if God is omniscient he must therefore know everything that will happen before it even began since he is the creator and all. So again,
If you changed your mind about something than it must fall within that which God already knew about, meaning that you can not make a choice that is not consistent with what God knew before the begining, which is determinism. Either God is not omniscient and free will exists, or God is omniscient and determinism exists.

First of all this is not my definition of derterminism, it IS the definition of determinism. Why is it unacceptable? Wether or not this is nasty stuff or has anything to do with Calvinism is irrelevant, what matters is wether or not determinism exist as our reality.

I have a question. Is the act of knowing a fact about an entity equivalent to the act of influencing that same entity?

 

[drich0150]

So are you saying that you are a "compatibility?"(i.e. believe that free will and determinism exist together)

If you have the ability to choose based on grounds of free will, can you tell me how this is possible? I mean explain how a so-called choice of free will takes place without cause and effect determining the outcome?

Actually no, I am not saying free will is tied or is not tied to determinism.

I simply said that biblically based free will is a precept that has nothing to do with the subject of determinism. If you are trying to tie freewill to whether or not we have a destiny, you have completely misunderstand the concept.

 

[A_maize]

Hello I am new here. I am 29 years old and was a christian for about 25 of those years and am now agnostic. I am just trying to get a feel for what people think about the issue of free will, so here are my questions.

My question is in two parts: 1) Do you believe in free will or determinism? 2)How can God be both omniscient and allow free will to exist? They seem to contradict each other.

Well, we make our own choices, and God can see them in advance. God basically sees the results of our choices. Doesn't mean he interferes all the time.

So, we have free will, for the vast majority of the time.

 

[razeontherock]

Why do you think that?

Poorly phrased question. I know G-d, and know that He has intentionally stacked the deck against Himself. Know if you were asking why G-d would do such a thing ... one Scripture that comes to mind is so that "the excellency of the power might be of G-d, and not of us."

 

[razeontherock]

I am not assuming anything, I am simply re-stating what most christians think to be true of God, and that is that he is omniscient. By definition if God is omniscient he must therefore know everything that will happen before it even began since he is the creator and all.

I'm perfectly aware of that, and I'm challenging that notion. No kool-aid drinking in these parts, ok?

If you changed your mind about something than it must fall within that which God already knew about, meaning that you can not make a choice that is not consistent with what God knew before the begining, which is determinism.

That last word is unnecessary as you've defined your scenario.

Either God is not omniscient and free will exists, or God is omniscient and determinism exists.

Using these terms as you've defined them, your logic is still flawed and you present a false dilemma. Perhaps someone else has the patience to spell out the tiny baby steps to you - but it doesn't add up the way you present it. There are other possibilities.

First of all this is not my definition of derterminism, it IS the definition of determinism.

You're forgetting that you're discussing theological ideas, and therefore no definition holds across any more than one person, nor for any longer than one conversation And I reject your notion of determinism as being part of G-d's Sovereignty, our dominion, His omniscience, and / or reality as we find ourselves living in. Nobody else here is agreeing with you either, so this is a good indicator that when considering the G-d of the Bible, this is not how He's revealed Himself to any of us. Take Him out of the equation and what you're saying might make sense, and you have done a good job of clarifying how you're using the term.

G-d changes everything, it would appear ...

 

[razeontherock]

(i.e. believe that free will and determinism exist together)

I could accept that if you modify your use of the term, and whatever theology you present, to account for the fact that things happen that break G-d's heart, and we can do such things.

If you have the ability to choose based on grounds of free will, can you tell me how this is possible? I mean explain how a so-called choice of free will takes place without cause and effect determining the outcome?

Another false dilemma. We make choices every day, and the outcome is normally perfectly rational, even when we make mistakes. Thsi is no way diminishes G-d's "Sovereignty." You'll get farther dealing with that term than you will using determinism, but sooner or later language breaks down due to limitations anyway.

Factor in something science has realized recently, which is that G-d is far bigger than we've ever considered.

 

[jonmichael818]

I simply said that biblically based free will is a precept that has nothing to do with the subject of determinism.

Ok biblically based free will or whatever based free will you want to believe in, is either a part of reality or not. Determinism is either a part of reality or it is not. I have given arguments for determinism, and basically all you have to say to me is the bible tells me so? How does biblically based free will exist without it falling in to the hands of cause and effect? Give me one example in your experience of biblically based free will, and I will see if I can show you how that so-called free will in action can be reduced to determinism.

 

[jonmichael818]

I have a question. Is the act of knowing a fact about an entity equivalent to the act of influencing that same entity?

Knowing a single fact about an entity does not influence that same entity. Knowing EVERY single fact about an entity before those facts even began, means that the entity will act out every single one of those facts. If even one of those facts is acted out differently than what you knew, than you are not omniscient.

 

[jonmichael818]

I'm perfectly aware of that, and I'm challenging that notion. No kool-aid drinking in these parts, ok?

So are you saying that you do not believe that God is omniscient?

Using these terms as you've defined them, your logic is still flawed and you present a false dilemma. Perhaps someone else has the patience to spell out the tiny baby steps to you - but it doesn't add up the way you present it. There are other possibilities.

Explain how it is flawed? Simply stating that you do not have patience to explain your opinions is not a very convincing argument. What other possibilities?

You're forgetting that you're discussing theological ideas, and therefore no definition holds across any more than one person, nor for any longer than one conversation

And I reject your notion of determinism as being part of G-d's Sovereignty, our dominion, His omniscience, and / or reality as we find ourselves living in.

Determinism is a philisophical argument, perhaps you are thinking of predestination. And yes determinism's definition does hold across, in fact is widely understood as I present it here throughout the academic community. If someone has a different view other than determinism than it is not called determinism, they give it a different name such as "compatibilism." If determinism is a part of reality than perhaps your understanding of God's sovereignty is not accurate, or perhaps God is not sovereign at all. I am presenting the argument for determinism, and if you disagree with what I am presenting than tell me how determinism does not exist. Give me a specific example to show me that determinism is wrong?

Another false dilemma. We make choices every day, and the outcome is normally perfectly rational, even when we make mistakes. Thsi is no way diminishes G-d's "Sovereignty."

Wether a "choice" is rational or not is irrelevant, and I am not concerned if it diminishes God's supposed sovereignty, I am simply making the argument that determinism exists. And if free will exists then how does it exist, I need specific examples because I certainly cannot think of one.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Knowing a single fact about an entity does not influence that same entity. Knowing EVERY single fact about an entity before those facts even began, means that the entity will act out every single one of those facts. If even one of those facts is acted out differently than what you knew, than you are not omniscient.

Jonmichael,

I'm sorry my friend, you didn't actually answer my question. Please look at your answer. You didn't address whether the act of knowing is equivalent to direct influence. Well, yes or no?

 

[drich0150]

Ok biblically based free will or whatever based free will you want to believe in, is either a part of reality or not. Determinism is either a part of reality or it is not. I have given arguments for determinism, and basically all you have to say to me is the bible tells me so? How does biblically based free will exist without it falling in to the hands of cause and effect? Give me one example in your experience of biblically based free will, and I will see if I can show you how that so-called free will in action can be reduced to determinism.

You are still trying to define biblically based free will as a matter of determinism other wise you would not desperately need to pair it with cause and effect. If you want an example of biblically based freewill then simply go back to my first post, and this time read it completely.

As I have stated, Biblically based "freewill" works in or outside the bounds of determinism.

 

[Blue Man]

This is where my confusion lies. This is not the context in which I framed "Free will." I did not claim that we are destined to do anything, nor did I claim that we were free from a destiny. I simply stated that no matter what you believe that Biblically described free will has nothing to do with either of these two things.
Because "Free will" is the ability to do anything outside of the Father's expressed will. Rather it is the ability to sin.

From my perspective Biblically based "Free will" has nothing to do with destiny.

Destiny can also be described as "god's will" or "god's plan". So if you're able to sin at any time, and god's will will be done, then how is that possible?

 

[Blue Man]

Poorly phrased question. I know G-d, and know that He has intentionally stacked the deck against Himself. Know if you were asking why G-d would do such a thing ... one Scripture that comes to mind is so that "the excellency of the power might be of G-d, and not of us."

My point was that it is impossible to know exactly what god wants. If the deck is stacked against believers, then you don't know that god doesn't want it that way because you don't know god or what he wants. Millions of people could die, but it could be what god wants.

 

[razeontherock]

Destiny can also be described as "god's will" or "god's plan". So if you're able to sin at any time, and god's will will be done, then how is that possible?

DING DING DING! We have a winner. This is what I've been saying all along. Now, which part has to give? Outta be pretty obvious, eh?

 

[razeontherock]

If the deck is stacked against believers

Not what I said. Whether what you say here might be true or not, I said G-d intentionally stacked the deck against Himself.

because you don't know god or what he wants.

A word to the wise: this is essentially trying to prove Christianity false, and violates forum rules. And with good reason! Resorting to that makes communication on this topic futile.

 

[drich0150]

Destiny can also be described as "god's will" or "god's plan". So if you're able to sin at any time, and god's will will be done, then how is that possible?

Any event can be attributed to God's will. That is why i specifically said God's expressed will. as in what God had expressed and written down in the bible. (The Law)

 

[Blue Man]

Any event can be attributed to God's will. That is why i specifically said God's expressed will. as in what God had expressed and written down in the bible. (The Law)

Well then you don't have free will. If every past event was god's will, then god's will is the only free will there is.

 

[Blue Man]

Not what I said. Whether what you say here might be true or not, I said G-d intentionally stacked the deck against Himself.

Why is this significant to this discussion of free will? All I can infer is that our free will is a disruption to god's plan. He would like X to happen, but he intentionally messes with himself and allows us to mess with him for... an undeclared purpose.

 

[jonmichael818]

Freewill is the ability to choose your own will over that of God's expressed will. (The bible/God's Law)

In other words Free will is the ability to sin.

I am assuming that this is what you mean by an example of free will. This is not a specific example of free will, this a vague theological idea. What I am asking for is something that happened during the course of your day that shows that you were able to have free will. Anything you can think of would be great, I will show how it is not free will but rather a series of cause and effect proving that it was a deterministic event.

 

[drich0150]

Well then you don't have free will. If every past event was god's will, then god's will is the only free will there is.

Do you have the ability to sin?

Since i know you do, I can say it is God will that has given you Biblically defined "Free will." Which Again is the ability to sin, and not a destiny as pop culture believes.

So whether you believe in a destiny or not you indeed have biblical based free will.