Christianity and Free Will?

[jonmichael818]

Hello I am new here. I am 29 years old and was a christian for about 25 of those years and am now agnostic. I am just trying to get a feel for what people think about the issue of free will, so here are my questions.

My question is in two parts: 1) Do you believe in free will or determinism? 2)How can God be both omniscient and allow free will to exist? They seem to contradict each other.

 

[razeontherock]

Free will in no way contradicts G-d's Omniscience. Determinism in no way aligns with anything I've ever experienced. If it did, you could basically let go of the steering wheel of your car ...

I think a better avenue of questioning might be to examine the man made concepts of Omnipotence and omniscience, and to compare those to what the Bible actually says. Omnipresence, that one's solid.

Better yet, what about mankind being given dominion? That gets right to the heart of the matter!

 

[razeontherock]

The best argument I've heard for it is that god's plan is that everything is done in a manner to foster a reaction, by you, that would result in what god wants.

Except that's the exact opposite of reality. The fact is, the deck is ridiculously stacked against anyone believing in Him Faithfully, and this is the one thing Jesus ever expressed doubt about! Then there's the whole destroying is easier and quicker than creating thing ...

 

[Blue Man]

Except that's the exact opposite of reality. The fact is, the deck is ridiculously stacked against anyone believing in Him Faithfully, and this is the one thing Jesus ever expressed doubt about! Then there's the whole destroying is easier and quicker than creating thing ...

But the kicker is: how do you know that isn't what god wants?

 

[razeontherock]

Au contraire: it is EXACTLY what G-d wants!

 

[jonmichael818]

In order to have free will there by necessity has to have a degree of uncertainty. If God is omniscient then he knows everything that will have happened before it ever happened. If you changed your mind about something than it must fall within that which God already knew about, meaning that you can not make a choice that is not consistent with what God knew before the begining, which is determinism. Either God is not omniscient and free will exists, or God is omniscient and determinism exists.

If you were to let go of the steering wheel (literally or metaphorically) it would be based on prior thoughts or ideas and would satisfy cause and effect (determinism.)

 

[razeontherock]

meaning that you can not make a choice that is not consistent with what God knew before the begining, which is determinism. Either God is not omniscient and free will exists, or God is omniscient and determinism exists.

Your logic is seriously flawed! First of all, we are in no position to go guessing / assuming about what G-d does or does not know. We have absolutely no basis to form any such opinion. Why would we express such a thing?

Second, your definition of determinism here is unacceptable. This is how Calvinism came about. Seriously nasty stuff there!

Instead, what we have is a reality where many things happen that break G-d's heart. Your "theology" on display simply can NOT account for that, so -

back to the drawing board! Might I suggest starting with Scripture?

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Hello I am new here. I am 29 years old and was a christian for about 25 of those years and am now agnostic. I am just trying to get a feel for what people think about the issue of free will, so here are my questions.

My question is in two parts: 1) Do you believe in free will or determinism? 2)How can God be both omniscient and allow free will to exist? They seem to contradict each other.

You have free will, because you have no choice.

 

[drich0150]

Hello I am new here. I am 29 years old and was a christian for about 25 of those years and am now agnostic. I am just trying to get a feel for what people think about the issue of free will, so here are my questions.

My question is in two parts: 1) Do you believe in free will or determinism? 2)How can God be both omniscient and allow free will to exist? They seem to contradict each other.

Just some definitions first:

Sin, is anything not in the expressed will of God

Evil, is a malicious intent to commit sin

Not all sin is evil, but all evil is sin

Freewill is the ability to choose your own will over that of God's expressed will. (The bible/God's Law)

In other words Free will is the ability to sin.

So whether we have a destiny or things just kinda all happen random like, or as Forrest Gump's explains: "that it maybe a little bit of both," Biblically based "freewill" is not effected by our life's path and whether it is determined for us or not. Because it is our ability to choose to sin or not. Not whether or not we were born to be astronauts or truck drivers.

 

[Blue Man]

Au contraire: it is EXACTLY what G-d wants!

Why do you think that?

 

[Blue Man]

Just some definitions first:

Sin, is anything not in the expressed will of God

Evil, is a malicious intent to commit sin

Not all sin is evil, but all evil is sin

Freewill is the ability to choose your own will over that of God's expressed will. (The bible/God's Law)

In other words Free will is the ability to sin.

So whether we have a destiny or things just kinda all happen random like, or as Forrest Gump's explains: "that it maybe a little bit of both," Biblically based "freewill" is not effected by our life's path and whether it is determined for us or not. Because it is our ability to choose to sin or not. Not whether or not we were born to be astronauts or truck drivers.

So our sins have no effect on our destiny?

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

So our sins have no effect on our destiny?

Correct.

 

[drich0150]

So our sins have no effect on our destiny?

How do you define destiny?

 

[Blue Man]

How do you define destiny?

In this context, your overall success or failure. For example, president Obama was destined to be president.

 

[drich0150]

This is where my confusion lies. This is not the context in which I framed "Free will." I did not claim that we are destined to do anything, nor did I claim that we were free from a destiny. I simply stated that no matter what you believe that Biblically described free will has nothing to do with either of these two things.
Because "Free will" is the ability to do anything outside of the Father's expressed will. Rather it is the ability to sin.

From my perspective Biblically based "Free will" has nothing to do with destiny.

 

[jonmichael818]

Your logic is seriously flawed! First of all, we are in no position to go guessing / assuming about what G-d does or does not know. We have absolutely no basis to form any such opinion. Why would we express such a thing?

Second, your definition of determinism here is unacceptable. This is how Calvinism came about. Seriously nasty stuff there!

I am not assuming anything, I am simply re-stating what most christians think to be true of God, and that is that he is omniscient. By definition if God is omniscient he must therefore know everything that will happen before it even began since he is the creator and all. So again,
If you changed your mind about something than it must fall within that which God already knew about, meaning that you can not make a choice that is not consistent with what God knew before the begining, which is determinism. Either God is not omniscient and free will exists, or God is omniscient and determinism exists.

First of all this is not my definition of derterminism, it IS the definition of determinism. Why is it unacceptable? Wether or not this is nasty stuff or has anything to do with Calvinism is irrelevant, what matters is wether or not determinism exist as our reality.

 

[jonmichael818]

You have free will, because you have no choice.

HaHa! I like that. I think I heard Christopher Hitchens(famous atheist) say something like that.

 

[jonmichael818]

So whether we have a destiny or things just kinda all happen random like, or as Forrest Gump's explains: "that it maybe a little bit of both," Biblically based "freewill" is not effected by our life's path and whether it is determined for us or not. Because it is our ability to choose to sin or not. Not whether or not we were born to be astronauts or truck drivers.

So are you saying that you are a "compatibilist?"(i.e. believe that free will and determinism exist together)

If you have the ability to choose based on grounds of free will, can you tell me how this is possible? I mean explain how a so-called choice of free will takes place without cause and effect determining the outcome?

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

HaHa! I like that. I think I heard Christopher Hitchens(famous atheist) say something like that.

Yes, I think it was Hitchens. I don't remember exactly when I heard it though, but it stuck out in my mind.

 

[Jpark]

Hello I am new here. I am 29 years old and was a christian for about 25 of those years and am now agnostic. I am just trying to get a feel for what people think about the issue of free will, so here are my questions.

My question is in two parts: 1) Do you believe in free will or determinism? 2)How can God be both omniscient and allow free will to exist? They seem to contradict each other.

1. Both.
2. Nope, no contradiction.

Predetermination is certainly involved in our lives (to deny it is to deny God's involvement in our lives), even our eternal fate (Acts 13:48), but it is not complete; not everything that happens is predetermined by God. God grants periods, intervals, instances during which we can have free will.

During these instances, nothing that we do is predetermined by God (although God has foreknowledge of our choices and can intervene and can influence our decisions anytime). The duration of the instances is controlled by God.

During predetermined instances, we will not be held accountable for our deeds. Rather, we will be judged for not repenting of them. During instances during which we have free will, we will be held accountable for our deeds and for not repenting of them.

Anyways, so if God knows what choices we are going to make, who can be saved? That's where God's intervention comes in.

When God sees something He desires, such as repentance and obedience, He can intervene and change a person's future (Jeremiah 18:7-10, 2 Chronicles 7:13-14, and Jonah 3:10 refer to national intervention but imply God intervening in a individual's life) and fate.