Christian Warfare

[R3quiem]

I'm interested in opinions (mainly Christian opinions) about when warfare is acceptable. When is it acceptable to God to go to war?

How do you interpret the verses to love your enemy and turn the other cheek when it comes to warfare?

What about preemptive strikes? Are they ever ethical?

I'm asking because I find it curious that America, which is the most Christian out of the highly developed nations, has by far the largest military and is the only country to ever nuke another country.

 

[TG123]

I'm interested in opinions (mainly Christian opinions) about when warfare is acceptable. When is it acceptable to God to go to war?

How do you interpret the verses to love your enemy and turn the other cheek when it comes to warfare?

What about preemptive strikes? Are they ever ethical?

I'm asking because I find it curious that America, which is the most Christian out of the highly developed nations, has by far the largest military and is the only country to ever nuke another country.

R3quiem,

As a Christian, I believe that war is never acceptable and is always contrary to the teachings of the Gospel. Jesus taught love for enemies, turning the other cheek, and that only those who are sinless can cast stones at others. War violates every single one of these teachings.

Some Christians who believe that war can be justified will point to examples in the Old Testament when God had the Israelites wage war on their neighbours. That was what God expected people to do then. Now, the message brought by Jesus (who is God) is that we must love our enemies and not respond to evil with evil. The words of Jesus will never pass away, they are here to stay.

I believe that war is in direct contradiction to the Gospel. It is also especially shameful and evil when Christians wage it, given the fact that many non-Christians look at a "christian president" backed by "christian churches" who goes on to bomb countries like Afghanistan and Iraq and gives arms to allies who bomb and invade places like Somalia and the West Bank and Gaza.

I wouldn't call America or Canada or any other country for that matter a Christian country, though. Many of our churches and people have gone astray. Look at the prevalence of abortion, homosexuality, materialism, capitalism, nihilism, immorality. The fact in itself that some churches allow gay marriages and others support the murderous bombing of other nations shows how far so many of us have turned from Jesus.

People should be able to look at Christians and see Jesus, and don't get me wrong there are many Christians in every country that are living out their faith and setting a good example. There are others who do not, and I believe they will answer to God for distorting His gospel and turning people away from Him.

I would urge you to look to Jesus, not to what Americans or Canadians or anyone else for that matter is doing. Read the Book of John to learn who Jesus is and what He has done for us. Believe what He has done for you on the cross and accept Him as your Saviour and Lord. Then go out into this cynical and self-centered world and start making a difference for Him.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

I'm interested in opinions (mainly Christian opinions) about when warfare is acceptable. When is it acceptable to God to go to war?

How do you interpret the verses to love your enemy and turn the other cheek when it comes to warfare?

What about preemptive strikes? Are they ever ethical?

I'm asking because I find it curious that America, which is the most Christian out of the highly developed nations, has by far the largest military and is the only country to ever nuke another country.

If we were born in communist China are we communists? People make the difference as to who they are. The country can not control Christians or really be controlled by Christians. So, America isn't Christian, but individuals can be, if they obey Jesus Christ personally.

Christians are not to defend their own lives on Earth. Their country isn't in this world as a worldly nation, but in the Kingdom of God within themselves.

A whole Roman legion of soldiers were executed by Caesar when they refused to deny Christ. They obeyed Christ to not deny him, yet they were soldiers, trained to kill. God will judge all, we each individually must have a relationship with our Father in Heaven, and we don't judge our brothers & sisters, or anyone. I would not choose to kill or to be a soldier. Does that make me better than a Christian brother or sister who would? No. We are all God's children. We don't judge how another's relationship is with our Father in Heaven. I respect Christian soldiers, but that will not make me change at all. If I can love my enemies, then I should be able to love more so, my brothers & sisters in Christ.

 

[MariaRegina]

Life is filled with contradictions.

If we obey the law of our land (USA) then we are called to do things that are not very Christian:

Military personnel who may have to kill other humans in the line of duty
Police officers who might have to kill another person in the line of duty
Juries who must serve and judge other men and women in the line of duty
Executioners who are paid to insert the IV which will kill a convicted person

Lord have mercy on us.

 

[nolongerhome]

Life is filled with contradictions.

If we obey the law of our land (USA) then we are called to do things that are not very Christian:

Military personnel who may have to kill other humans in the line of duty
Police officers who might have to kill another person in the line of duty
Juries who must serve and judge other men and women in the line of duty
Executioners who are paid to insert the IV which will kill a convicted person

Lord have mercy on us.

Any Christian can avoid putting themselves in any of the situations you just named, though, if they chose it.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I'm interested in opinions (mainly Christian opinions) about when warfare is acceptable. When is it acceptable to God to go to war?

How do you interpret the verses to love your enemy and turn the other cheek when it comes to warfare?

What about preemptive strikes? Are they ever ethical?

I believe warfare in defence of others and self is acceptible to God, or in defence of others at any rate, since it complies with "love thy neighbour as you would be loved".

I'm asking because I find it curious that America, which is the most Christian out of the highly developed nations, has by far the largest military and is the only country to ever nuke another country.

What America are you talking about? America doesn't even have a national religion, where countries like Britain, Denmark, Russia, France, Spain, Italy and a bunch of others have actual state religions... or dopn't they count as developed?

 

[ebia]

I believe warfare in defence of others and self is acceptible to God, or in defence of others at any rate, since it complies with "love thy neighbour as you would be loved".

What America are you talking about? America doesn't even have a national religion, where countries like Britain, Denmark, Russia, France, Spain, Italy and a bunch of others have actual state religions... or dopn't they count as developed?

Some European countries have established churches for historical reasons, but few if any still have active church participation rates anywhere near that of the US. France is about as secularised as a nation can get and has been since it's revolution.

 

[ebia]

I'm interested in opinions (mainly Christian opinions) about when warfare is acceptable.

IMO, never. Though it is not always the worst option.

 

[JustOneWay]

Any Christian can avoid putting themselves in any of the situations you just named, though, if they chose it.

absolutely.

Regarding obeying the law of the land....

why do some Christians feel obligated to kill for the law of the land, yet reject abortion, which is another law of the land?

 

[MariaRegina]

absolutely.

Regarding obeying the law of the land....

why do some Christians feel obligated to kill for the law of the land, yet reject abortion, which is another law of the land?

Good question, taking the life of another person is killing whether it is justifiable homicide, abortion, euthanasia, or done in the line of duty (justifiable homicide). I guess the death penalty now is a form of state-mandated euthanasia.

Don't you just love all those euphemisms?

Life is a gift from God.
We have no right to take it away.

 

[JustOneWay]

Life is a gift from God.
We have no right to take it away.

This is my opinion as well.

 

[TG123]

Good question, taking the life of another person is killing whether it is justifiable homicide, abortion, euthanasia, or done in the line of duty (justifiable homicide). I guess the death penalty now is a form of state-mandated euthanasia.

Don't you just love all those euphemisms?

Life is a gift from God.
We have no right to take it away.

Amen amen amen and amen. Thank you!!!

 

[R3quiem]

R3quiem,

As a Christian, I believe that war is never acceptable and is always contrary to the teachings of the Gospel. Jesus taught love for enemies, turning the other cheek, and that only those who are sinless can cast stones at others. War violates every single one of these teachings.

Some Christians who believe that war can be justified will point to examples in the Old Testament when God had the Israelites wage war on their neighbours. That was what God expected people to do then. Now, the message brought by Jesus (who is God) is that we must love our enemies and not respond to evil with evil. The words of Jesus will never pass away, they are here to stay.

I believe that war is in direct contradiction to the Gospel. It is also especially shameful and evil when Christians wage it, given the fact that many non-Christians look at a "christian president" backed by "christian churches" who goes on to bomb countries like Afghanistan and Iraq and gives arms to allies who bomb and invade places like Somalia and the West Bank and Gaza.

I wouldn't call America or Canada or any other country for that matter a Christian country, though.

Interesting.

I find it interesting that many Christians here are quick to call America a Christian nation when it suits them. "We were founded as a Christian nation," many say. This is used often when it comes to discussions on gay marriage, for instance.

But when something like war is considered, suddenly Christians shy away from calling America a Christian nation. Suddenly they start talking about how a certain time was better, or how small the population of true Christians is.

I'm not saying you do this personally, because I'm not familiar with your posts. I'm just noticing a general trend.

Many of our churches and people have gone astray. Look at the prevalence of abortion, homosexuality, materialism, capitalism, nihilism, immorality. The fact in itself that some churches allow gay marriages and others support the murderous bombing of other nations shows how far so many of us have turned from Jesus.

People should be able to look at Christians and see Jesus, and don't get me wrong there are many Christians in every country that are living out their faith and setting a good example. There are others who do not, and I believe they will answer to God for distorting His gospel and turning people away from Him.

Now, when you say many churches and people have gone astray, which point in time are you referencing? We've gone astray compared to which period in time?

I would urge you to look to Jesus, not to what Americans or Canadians or anyone else for that matter is doing. Read the Book of John to learn who Jesus is and what He has done for us. Believe what He has done for you on the cross and accept Him as your Saviour and Lord. Then go out into this cynical and self-centered world and start making a difference for Him.

Thanks but I've already read your holy book, among others. The character of Jesus doesn't impress me any more than American Christians.

He's not bad, and some of his lines are quite clever, but overall I'm just not that impressed by him compared to other religious founders honestly.

 

[R3quiem]

What America are you talking about? America doesn't even have a national religion, where countries like Britain, Denmark, Russia, France, Spain, Italy and a bunch of others have actual state religions... or dopn't they count as developed?

Yes, they are all highly developed countries, and just about all of them are less religious than America. Their state religions are nothing but remnants of history. Compared to America, fewer people in those countries self-identify as devout Christians, fewer attend church regularly, fewer believe in a higher power, etc. Also, young earth creationism is much less prevalent in those countries compared to how it is in America.

Ebia already handled the response well, though:

Some European countries have established churches for historical reasons, but few if any still have active church participation rates anywhere near that of the US. France is about as secularised as a nation can get and has been since it's revolution.

 

[TG123]

Interesting.

I find it interesting that many Christians here are quick to call America a Christian nation when it suits them. "We were founded as a Christian nation," many say. This is used often when it comes to discussions on gay marriage, for instance.

But when something like war is considered, suddenly Christians shy away from calling America a Christian nation. Suddenly they start talking about how a certain time was better, or how small the population of true Christians is.

I'm not saying you do this personally, because I'm not familiar with your posts. I'm just noticing a general trend.

I can't speak for other posters, but I couldn't say that either America or Canada are or ever were Christian nations or founded on Christian ideals.

The founders of these nations were white colonists who came and befriended, betrayed, slaughtered, displaced, repressed and destroyed the First Nations peoples who lived here before they did. Then they fought meaningless engagements like "the war of 1812" over the land of the people they ethnically cleansed.

There is nothing Christian about that.

I am opposed to gay marriage for the same reason I am opposed to war and capitalism. It is ungodly and disagrees with what the Bible says about how God wants people to live.

It has nothing to do with our nations being "christian"- they aren't and never were.

Now, when you say many churches and people have gone astray, which point in time are you referencing? We've gone astray compared to which period in time?

Gone astray meaning that they deviate from Biblical teaching. An example would be flaunting homosexuality and encouraging premarital sex. Homosexuality and adultery are condemned in Scripture. Another example would be our so-called "war on terror"- Jesus calls on us to love our enemies, when we bomb them (and in the process mostly murder their civilians who have committed no crime against us) we disobey Him.

Thanks but I've already read your holy book, among others. The character of Jesus doesn't impress me any more than American Christians.

He's not bad, and some of his lines are quite clever, but overall I'm just not that impressed by him compared to other religious founders honestly.

Really? I think that a man who is actually God in the flesh, who walked among people like us and walked on water and raised the dead and taught revolutionary teachings about loving your enemies and seeing God in the poor; Who did and taught all these amazing things and then had the humility to allow Himself to be tortured and crucified all so that we can be with Him when we die- that is one of the most amazing and impressive things I could ever imagine.

Not to put down other religious founders and I do appreciate your honesty but who do you think could top what He has done for the world?

It's been good talking with you, I look forward to more discussion.

 

[R3quiem]

I can't speak for other posters, but I couldn't say that either America or Canada are or ever were Christian nations or founded on Christian ideals.

The founders of these nations were white colonists who came and befriended, betrayed, slaughtered, displaced, repressed and destroyed the First Nations peoples who lived here before they did. Then they fought meaningless engagements like "the war of 1812" over the land of the people they ethnically cleansed.

I agree.

Some Christians tend to argue that America (or I guess Canada as well) is founded as a Christian nation, while others tend to argue that America is ungodly.

I am opposed to gay marriage for the same reason I am opposed to war and capitalism. It is ungodly and disagrees with what the Bible says about how God wants people to live.

It has nothing to do with our nations being "christian"- they aren't and never were.

You can be opposed to it, but why try to legislate against it? Why set up legal barriers against people that do something "wrong" based on what the Bible says? We don't have rules against shellfish.

Gone astray meaning that they deviate from Biblical teaching. An example would be flaunting homosexuality and encouraging premarital sex. Homosexuality and adultery are condemned in Scripture. Another example would be our so-called "war on terror"- Jesus calls on us to love our enemies, when we bomb them (and in the process mostly murder their civilians who have committed no crime against us) we disobey Him.

But can you point to a time that was any better? I mean, Israelites committed genocide left and right under the supposed command of their deity. Is that what we've deviated and sank from?

I'd say that ethics have never been better than they are in developed countries now. These countries grant so much freedom and rights to their people, have eliminated slavery, reduced racism and sexism, etc. Of course they're not perfect- we're rampant with consumerism and bad choices, and I don't know about Canada but I think America has had some pretty terrible foreign relations to say the least, but compared to genocide of Native Americans or legal slavery of blacks, I think society has progressed a great deal.

Really? I think that a man who is actually God in the flesh, who walked among people like us and walked on water and raised the dead and taught revolutionary teachings about loving your enemies and seeing God in the poor; Who did and taught all these amazing things and then had the humility to allow Himself to be tortured and crucified all so that we can be with Him when we die- that is one of the most amazing and impressive things I could ever imagine.

Not to put down other religious founders and I do appreciate your honesty but who do you think could top what He has done for the world?

It's been good talking with you, I look forward to more discussion.

Eh, I like Siddhartha Gautama and Krishna better. I don't really dislike Jesus, especially compared to the Old Testament, but he just doesn't stand out to me. I mean, I don't believe the supernatural stuff about him. Even if I did, he just doesn't strike me as all that amazing.

His views seem inconsistent and illogical. They seem somewhat unimpressive to me- I just don't find myself inspired by anything he says, or see all that much value in it. I don't know how much I can say in the ethics and morality section without the mods getting all uppity though.

 

[TG123]

I agree.

Some Christians tend to argue that America (or I guess Canada as well) is founded as a Christian nation, while others tend to argue that America is ungodly.

Fair enough. I think though that looking at our nations' history and then at the Gospels makes it pretty clear that they were not founded on Christian values.

You can be opposed to it, but why try to legislate against it? Why set up legal barriers against people that do something "wrong" based on what the Bible says?

For the same reason child labour and racial segregation was fought against. It is wrong and it is a Christian's duty to oppose what goes against God's teachings.

Personally I believe in grassroots resistance, building awareness from the bottom up and using pressure from the people, not lobby groups.

We don't have rules against shellfish.

Because as Jesus said, what goes into our mouths does not make us unclean, it is what comes out. In some cases Jesus seems to waive the Old Testament laws. Actually, He fully explained them. Shellfish may have been seen as unhealthy but eating it is no moral offence.

But can you point to a time that was any better? I mean, Israelites committed genocide left and right under the supposed command of their deity. Is that what we've deviated and sank from?

Christians go by the Gospel, not the Law in the Torah. Yes the law is important. And yes the Israelites did commit genocide when God told them to. However this was at a limited time in history- Jesus makes it clear that Christians are never to commit violence or judge or condemn others again- and His words will never pass away. That is the standard by which Christians are supposed to go.

I'd say that ethics have never been better than they are in developed countries now. These countries grant so much freedom and rights to their people, have eliminated slavery, reduced racism and sexism, etc. Of course they're not perfect- we're rampant with consumerism and bad choices, and I don't know about Canada but I think America has had some pretty terrible foreign relations to say the least, but compared to genocide of Native Americans or legal slavery of blacks, I think society has progressed a great deal.

Sorry I hate to break this to you, but the victims of America's policies abroad pile up and continue to. The most conservative estimates now admit that at least 100,000 Iraqis died in the war that Dubya started. US-backed Ethiopian troops have committed atrocities in Somalia after an invasion- on Christmas eve- that the White House authorized. Millions of people die from hunger every year while we in the West stockpile and waste food. We have children making our clothes in sweatshops and our oil and mineral companies throw people off their land in Central and South America so there are more cash oppurtunities for their CEOs.
You think slavery is eliminated? Tens of thousands of women and children are prostituted and sold nightly in our capital cities.
And talking about mass murder... millions of children are "aborted" every year in USA, Canada, the UK, and other developed countries.
Aboriginal kids in Canada live in reserves lacking running water and the most basic sanitation. You want to talk about racism being reduced- then why are most poor Americans hispanic and black? Why do slums and barrios exist in America and reserves in Canada- and why are most people who live in them non-white?

Eh, I like Siddhartha Gautama and Krishna better.

Interesting, thanks for sharing. Why?

I don't really dislike Jesus, especially compared to the Old Testament, but he just doesn't stand out to me. I mean, I don't believe the supernatural stuff about him. Even if I did, he just doesn't strike me as all that amazing.

Why do you not believe the supernatural stuff? Even looking at His teachings, like loving one's enemy and going as far as to pray for the people who were murdering Him on the cross (even if you reject that He rose from the dead), what other religious leader has done that?

His views seem inconsistent and illogical. They seem somewhat unimpressive to me- I just don't find myself inspired by anything he says, or see all that much value in it. I don't know how much I can say in the ethics and morality section without the mods getting all uppity though.

Can you give me some examples of the inconsistency and illogicality you see in His teachings? I think this is an awesome discussion and I hope we can continue. If it turns out that it is not, you can always PM me.

 

[LiveInSpirit]

R3quiem,

Who are you to say what "Christians" say or believe? Is there some Christian consensus that I am not aware of? I don't go into forums and tell people what all atheists or agnostics believe or think. You will never find answers to any of your questions because every Christian does not have the same opp. on every issue. The same as self described atheists and agnostics don't agree on every topic.

The fact that you could read the story of Jesus' life and teachings and think nothing of it shows how hardened your heart is.

You mention respect for Krishna but how did you attain this?

 

[R3quiem]

Fair enough. I think though that looking at our nations' history and then at the Gospels makes it pretty clear that they were not founded on Christian values.


For the same reason child labour and racial segregation was fought against. It is wrong and it is a Christian's duty to oppose what goes against God's teachings.

Personally I believe in grassroots resistance, building awareness from the bottom up and using pressure from the people, not lobby groups.


Because as Jesus said, what goes into our mouths does not make us unclean, it is what comes out. In some cases Jesus seems to waive the Old Testament laws. Actually, He fully explained them. Shellfish may have been seen as unhealthy but eating it is no moral offence.


Christians go by the Gospel, not the Law in the Torah. Yes the law is important. And yes the Israelites did commit genocide when God told them to. However this was at a limited time in history- Jesus makes it clear that Christians are never to commit violence or judge or condemn others again- and His words will never pass away. That is the standard by which Christians are supposed to go.


Sorry I hate to break this to you, but the victims of America's policies abroad pile up and continue to. The most conservative estimates now admit that at least 100,000 Iraqis died in the war that Dubya started. US-backed Ethiopian troops have committed atrocities in Somalia after an invasion- on Christmas eve- that the White House authorized. Millions of people die from hunger every year while we in the West stockpile and waste food. We have children making our clothes in sweatshops and our oil and mineral companies throw people off their land in Central and South America so there are more cash oppurtunities for their CEOs.
You think slavery is eliminated? Tens of thousands of women and children are prostituted and sold nightly in our capital cities.
And talking about mass murder... millions of children are "aborted" every year in USA, Canada, the UK, and other developed countries.
Aboriginal kids in Canada live in reserves lacking running water and the most basic sanitation. You want to talk about racism being reduced- then why are most poor Americans hispanic and black? Why do slums and barrios exist in America and reserves in Canada- and why are most people who live in them non-white?


Interesting, thanks for sharing. Why?


Why do you not believe the supernatural stuff? Even looking at His teachings, like loving one's enemy and going as far as to pray for the people who were murdering Him on the cross (even if you reject that He rose from the dead), what other religious leader has done that?


Can you give me some examples of the inconsistency and illogicality you see in His teachings? I think this is an awesome discussion and I hope we can continue. If it turns out that it is not, you can always PM me.

I'll send you a message or something to consider the convo, because this last part about Jesus' teachings and whether he is supernatural is out of the scope of the morality section. Give me some time, though.

 

[R3quiem]

R3quiem,

Who are you to say what "Christians" say or believe? Is there some Christian consensus that I am not aware of? I don't go into forums and tell people what all atheists or agnostics believe or think. You will never find answers to any of your questions because every Christian does not have the same opp. on every issue. The same as self described atheists and agnostics don't agree on every topic.

Unfortunately, you completely missed the point.

I don't know if you noticed or not, but the entire thread's purpose is to collect Christian opinions. I'm not telling what Christians think, I'm ASKING what Christians think.

Sometimes when I'm discussing things with Christians, I'll point out what orthodox Christian beliefs tend to say on the matter, or what most Christians I've talked to tend to say (you know, from real life and from 6000 or so posts on this site talking to them directly), but I don't assume all Christians think the same.

You want to answer my OP or no? No other people in this thread had a problem with me like you did.

The fact that you could read the story of Jesus' life and teachings and think nothing of it shows how hardened your heart is.

Do you think my heart is harder than yours? Show me.

I could throw insults around like you did, but I won't.

You mention respect for Krishna but how did you attain this?

By reading the Bhagavad Gita a couple times. There is a lot more information on him in the Mahabharata, but that is quite long and I haven't taken the time to read it yet (except for the Gita which is a subset of this longer story).