christian values

[jesusisahippy]

i can't seem to understand when anti-abortion, the integrity of church and state, and anti-gay marriage became "christian values"
i mean when did jesus ever speak against abortion, gays, or the seperation of church and state?
however, jesus did speak for the weak, and those who have no voice
he despised the rich and the corrupt, and gave to those who were poor and the downtrodden
he cured the sick, and he preached to all
thus, i can't understand why christians today would claim that bush, and republicans, have the christian values, but kerry, and the democrats do not
it would seem to me that democrats, not republicans, uphold far more christian values then the republicans do

 

[Ave Maria]

i can't seem to understand when anti-abortion, the integrity of church and state, and anti-gay marriage became "christian values"
i mean when did jesus ever speak against abortion, gays, or the seperation of church and state?
however, jesus did speak for the weak, and those who have no voice
he despised the rich and the corrupt, and gave to those who were poor and the downtrodden
he cured the sick, and he preached to all
thus, i can't understand why christians today would claim that bush, and republicans, have the christian values, but kerry, and the democrats do not
it would seem to me that democrats, not republicans, uphold far more christian values then the republicans do

You have a point jesusisahippy. I am going to address each of those issues one at a time starting with abortion.

Jesus never spoke about abortion and neither did any of the Bible. However, abortion was common back then. If abortion was common back then (which it was), then why didn't Jesus mention it if it was something he had any opinion about? Perhaps he felt it was best to leave the decision up to the mother and the father? Here are a few links about the Christians, the Bible, and abortion:

Abortion: Ancient Christian Beliefs

Passages in the Hebrew scriptures that may refer to abortion

The Christian scriptures (New Testament) and abortion

Personhood and the Bible

My point is that although abortion was common during the Bible times, none of the Bible says a thing about abortion! Any verses that Pro-Lifers often use to say that abortion is wrong are very vague verses.

I am personally against abortion. However, I still believe it should be up to the woman to choose, not the law.

As for gays, well, the Bible is quite clear that homosexuality is wrong. I believe that homosexuality is a sin and I am against homosexual marriage. I would see nothing wrong with civil unions but I believe that marriage is a gift from God made for a man and a woman.

[bible]Leviticus 18:22[/bible]

[bible]Leviticus 20:13[/bible]

[bible]1 Corinthians 6:9-10[/bible]

[bible]Romans 1:26-28[/bible]

Also, take a look at these links regarding the Bible, Christianity, and Homosexuality:

What does the Bible say about homosexuality?

The Bible and Homosexuality

What should be the attitude of the church towards homosexuals and homosexuality?

What does the Bible say about same sex marriages?

Can a gay or lesbian person go to Heaven?

As for church and state issues, I believe in the separation of church and state. I strongly believe and support it. I only know of one Bible verse that might be used to support the separation of church and state. However, it's a little iffy. Nevertheless, I still believe that it is a good idea to maintain the separation of church and state.

[bible]Matthew 22:16-22[/bible]

 

[The Midge]

i can't seem to understand when anti-abortion, the integrity of church and state, and anti-gay marriage became "christian values"
i mean when did jesus ever speak against abortion, gays, or the seperation of church and state?
however, jesus did speak for the weak, and those who have no voice
he despised the rich and the corrupt, and gave to those who were poor and the downtrodden
he cured the sick, and he preached to all
thus, i can't understand why christians today would claim that bush, and republicans, have the christian values, but kerry, and the democrats do not
it would seem to me that democrats, not republicans, uphold far more christian values then the republicans do

It helps to remember that Christianity is bigger than American politics.

 

[Ave Maria]

It helps to remember that Christianity is bigger than American politics.

Um, what's that supposed to mean?

 

[UberLutheran]

It helps to remember that Christianity is bigger than American politics.

And all too often those people are unrighteous, immoral, wicket, covetous, malicious, envious, murdering, strife-creating, deceitful, slandering, backbiting, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, deliberately and willfully ignorant, prideful, covenant-breaking, unforgiving and unmerciful.

It's all the stuff which is mentioned in Romans 1:29-31 which so many Christians would like to think applies to "those AWFUL homosexuals" but in reality, St. Paul was referring to us.

 

[Ave Maria]

And all too often those people are unrighteous, immoral, wicket, covetous, malicious, envious, murdering, strife-creating, deceitful, slandering, backbiting, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, deliberately and willfully ignorant, prideful, covenant-breaking, unforgiving and unmerciful.

It's all the stuff which is mentioned in Romans 1:29-31 which so many Christians would like to think applies to "those AWFUL homosexuals" but in reality, St. Paul was referring to us.

Now that was an excellent post! Bravo UberLutheran!

 

[Sharp]

i can't seem to understand when anti-abortion, the integrity of church and state, and anti-gay marriage became "christian values"
i mean when did jesus ever speak against abortion, gays, or the seperation of church and state?

I agree. You cannot understand unless you know the Word of God. What are you doing to learn? I suspect you are listening to a bunch of liberal pastors and theologians. Many liberals have never trusted in Christ as Lord and Savior. That is why their religion is like the blind leading the blind.

I suggest you stop finding fault with Christians and Republicans for believing the Bible. Study it for yourself.

 

[seebs]

And all too often those people are unrighteous, immoral, wicket, covetous, malicious, envious, murdering, strife-creating, deceitful, slandering, backbiting, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, deliberately and willfully ignorant, prideful, covenant-breaking, unforgiving and unmerciful.

It's all the stuff which is mentioned in Romans 1:29-31 which so many Christians would like to think applies to "those AWFUL homosexuals" but in reality, St. Paul was referring to us.

As I have complained before, many people fail to realize that Romans 1 has more than 27 verses, and most people don't realize at all that the entire point of Romans 1 is to be the setup for Romans 2. The decision to subdivide the books into "chapters" at points not envisioned by the author was a horrible one.

 

[seebs]

I agree. You cannot understand unless you know the Word of God.

Indeed. This is why the Bible directs us to a personal relationship with the Word.

 

[jesusisahippy]

I suspect you are listening to a bunch of liberal pastors and theologians

ok, im not

 

[The Midge]

Um, what's that supposed to mean?

The previous poster seemed to be implying that Kerry vs. Bush was the preoccupation of us all.

Edit to add a perfect example

I suggest you stop finding fault with Christians and Republicans for believing the Bible. Study it for yourself.

One does not always = the other.

 

[UberLutheran]

I agree. You cannot understand unless you know the Word of God. What are you doing to learn? I suspect you are listening to a bunch of liberal pastors and theologians. Many liberals have never trusted in Christ as Lord and Savior. That is why their religion is like the blind leading the blind.

I suggest you stop finding fault with Christians and Republicans for believing the Bible. Study it for yourself.

...liberals and Democrats cannot believe the Bible?

Let's see: I'm a liberal, a Democrat, and a committed Christian. I've studied the Bible for myself (in Greek and Hebrew) and I don't think modern English translations capture much of the original meaning and flavor of the original languages.

I've read the Bible through (many times), and I continue to study it -- and I hope I will continue to study it the rest of my life -- yet I remain a liberal, a Democrat, and a committed Christian.

How do you account for THAT?

 

[Rev. Smith]

...liberals and Democrats cannot believe the Bible?

Let's see: I'm a liberal, a Democrat, and a committed Christian. I've studied the Bible for myself (in Greek and Hebrew) and I don't think modern English translations capture much of the original meaning and flavor of the original languages.

I've read the Bible through (many times), and I continue to study it -- and I hope I will continue to study it the rest of my life -- yet I remain a liberal, a Democrat, and a committed Christian.

How do you account for THAT?

I am also a committed liberal, Democrat and Christian. However I side with my more conservative brothers on abortion, and to a much lessor degree on the Church's response to Gays. (actually the only thing I agree with is that the Bible clearly condemns gay sexual activity)

On Abortion, I simply can't seprate myself from the belief that the featus is a child, that it has the right to live: and that that right should be equal to the mother's right to control her body. [There is a much more detailed discussion that could go here, but that's not the topic ]

On gays and the church, I do not believe that we can re-write Paul or the rest of the teaching. Where I think that the conservatives are in grave error is that they set the sin of homosexual sex aside as somthing special; we are all sinners and need to come to God's love and forgiveness. We will all die in sin, even as we were born in original sin - we each must rely on God's forgiveness.

I encourage gay people I meet to chastity, just as I encourage everyone to live a chaste life.

So to answer the question, many Christians are anti-abortion (lets call it what it is, people supporting the death penalty can't really say they are "pro life", any more than calling it "pro choice" makes it any less about killing babies to avoid inconveinance for the mom) -and anti Gay becasue they in faith and reason believe that the Bible teaches these doctrines, and at this moment in time the larger society in our country are debating those issues.

The sad thing to me is that in America we have only two political parties with any weight or power, and they are BOTH morally bankrupt. The Democrats are pro-abortion, and the Republicans pro death penalty. Each party reserves the right to kill people, they just argue about which people they'd prefer to kill.