Christian Universalism...your views?

[Minty]

I just wondered what y'all thought of Christian Universalism...the thinking that ALL people will get into heaven as God is merciful and forgiving and will not leave any of His children behind...for, against, load of old baloney?

Just curious

 

[seashale76]

I just wondered what y'all thought of Christian Universalism...the thinking that ALL people will get into heaven as God is merciful and forgiving and will not leave any of His children behind...for, against, load of old baloney?

Just curious

It is an interesting topic. Think of it this way. God is Love and His presence is like fire. How one endures this fire has everything to do with how they were tempered in this life, just like the three righteous youths in the fiery furnace (Old Testament) were able to joyfully walk around unharmed in the fire, so did others who didn't love God perish just being near the fire. The fire didn't change.

Here is a quote from an old Wikipedia article on the topic (that doesn’t seem to be around anymore) that I thought explained it pretty well: "For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."

 

[Minty]

Thanks, Seashale...very interesting

 

[Avatar]

It is an interesting topic. Think of it this way. God is Love and His presence is like fire. How one endures this fire has everything to do with how they were tempered in this life, just like the three righteous youths in the fiery furnace (Old Testament) were able to joyfully walk around unharmed in the fire, so did others who didn't love God perish just being near the fire. The fire didn't change.

Here is a quote from an old Wikipedia article on the topic (that doesn’t seem to be around anymore) that I thought explained it pretty well: "For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."

A lot of truth in that. Not too far off from my own belief that Hell is what we experince when we fully - to the depth of our being - understand all the pain we've ever caused another.

And it's followed by forgiveness. Though for some that can take a while. Because it's not God forgiving us, it's us forgiving ourselves.

 

[arunma]

Universalism is a contemptible and utterly vile doctrine. I will go so far as to say that any church which preaches universalism and teaches others to do so is most likely apostate from Christ, and condemned to hell themselves. The Bible is replete with statements that not believing in Christ is a sin that is worthy of eternal comdemnation. It is written,

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (John 3:36)
​

Jesus said that he was the only way to God, apart from other false religions. This includes Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, atheism, and any other theistic or atheistic religion that does not teach salvation by faith in Christ. The Apostle John, who wrote that "God is love" (1 John 4:16), also was so bold as to say,

Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2:22-23)
​

Again John, who is often called "the Apostle of Love," said that non-Christian religions can never result in salvation,

Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 1:9)
​

Elsewhere the same Apostle says that the punishment for rejecting Jesus is an eternal one,

And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. (Revelation 14:11)
​

The Apostle Paul, who taught extensively on the love and grace of God, said that God will inflict his eternal wrath and pour out his anger on all non-Christians,

This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering-- since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. (2 Thessalonians 1:5-10)
​

It is clear, therefore, that God will not grant even the slightest degree of mercy to those who chose to reject his Son and practice other religions, but instead will give them what justice demands for all humans: eternal condemnation and destruction. This is not a joke or a scare tactic, but a very real fruit of false religion. Here in Scripture, in the lively oracles of God, we see that God is ready to punish sinners for our disobedience, but offers forgiveness through the blood of his Son Jesus. It does not come by keeping the laws of rabbis, obeying five pillars, performing pujas, or detaching yourself from the world, but by faith in Christ Jesus.

In light of what a serious sin it is to practice other religions, how terrible it is that there are churches in the world which actually teach that non-Christians can be saved. Such a teaching treats the blood of Jesus like dirt and denies the faith. It constitutes anathema, as the Bible says,

As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:9)
​

Churches which teach that non-Christians can be saved believe that they are being loving towards non-Christians. The Catholic Church, for example, believes that it can make up for centuries of anti-semitism by teaching that Jews are already in a covenant relationship with God and are not in need of the Gospel of Christ. In this way they are insuring the eternal condemnation of many Jews, and are only completing their anti-semitism. Churches which teach universalism make themselves into ministers of condemnation. They hand the world over to Satan and drive people into hell. They shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces and refuse to enter themselves. I urge no one here to believe the lie that you can reject Jesus and not go to hell for it. Many will ask me what happens to people who have never heard about Jesus. If you have read my post to this point then for you the question is moot. If you reject Christ you will go to hell, and there will be no escape.

 

[arunma]

Minty, I have a question for you. You read Seashale's post and found it "interesting." You were neither offended at the suggestion that you might go to hell or afraid of the possibility, but only intrigued. In St. Issac's quote, it says, "For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures." Let me grant, for the moment, the possibility that people in hell are in the same physical place as people in heaven, but experience God's love as torment. If St. Issac is right, then for you the feeling will be worse than being burned in a fiery pit of refuse for the rest of eternity. That's the analogy that Jesus used for hell, so it means that the true nature of hell can only be worse than the analogy. That's how Jesus' parables work. He used mundane imagry from daily life to teach about profound spiritual truths. This isn't a good thing for you. It is the worst possible fate that you could meet. And you find it "interesting?" Ought you not rather to mourn and repent of your religious beliefs? If St. Issac is right, then you are doomed to an eternity of suffering and have no hope of escape besides giving up your religious beliefs to follow Jesus Christ.

 

[ephraimanesti]

I just wondered what y'all thought of Christian Universalism...the thinking that ALL people will get into heaven as God is merciful and forgiving and will not leave any of His children behind...for, against, load of old baloney?

Just curious

MY SISTER--This is an old thought--wish?--that goes back to the early days of the Church.

i am Eastern Orthodox--which likewise goes back to the beginning--and the idea is mentioned several times in the writings of the Church Fathers. Significantly, the Orthodox Church has neither condemned nor accepted these musings, perhaps in the thought that there is not concrete--beyond a reasonable doubt--evidence one way or the other.

Given our God's great Mercy and Love, i find it quite possible that He has worked out a Just way of leading all His children back home just as He planned a Just way to become our Savior through the life, death, and Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. This would be wonderful, but i think we are going to have to just wait and see what eternity holds in this regard given that God has not spoken a definitive word on the subject.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I just wondered what y'all thought of Christian Universalism...the thinking that ALL people will get into heaven as God is merciful and forgiving and will not leave any of His children behind...for, against, load of old baloney?

Just curious

Now, when you say "God's children", do you mean God's children as defined by the Bible, or by the Oprah Winfrey, let's-all-sit-around-the-campfire-and-sing-Kum-Bay-Yah definition?

If you're not born again, you're not a child of God, you're an enemy of God and He will judge you as one when you stand before Him.

 

[arunma]

Now, when you say "God's children", do you mean God's children as defined by the Bible, or by the Oprah Winfrey, let's-all-sit-around-the-campfire-and-sing-Kum-Bay-Yah definition?

If you're not born again, you're not a child of God, you're an enemy of God and He will judge you as one when you stand before Him.

This is correct, and is taught in the following passages of Scripture:

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. (John 1:12)

For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. (Philippians 3:18-19)
​

You aren't a child of God simply by being born. To be a child of God, one must be born again. There is no such thing as Christians who aren't "born again," nor is does this term refer to a certain denomination of Christians. Anyone who confesses Jesus as Lord is born from above. Anyone who does not is still in the world and is a stranger to God. But he offers his Son to all, and you need only to give up your false religion and follow after Christ to be a son of God.

 

[Minty]

Minty, I have a question for you. You read Seashale's post and found it "interesting." You were neither offended at the suggestion that you might go to hell or afraid of the possibility, but only intrigued. In St. Issac's quote, it says, "For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures." Let me grant, for the moment, the possibility that people in hell are in the same physical place as people in heaven, but experience God's love as torment. If St. Issac is right, then for you the feeling will be worse than being burned in a fiery pit of refuse for the rest of eternity. That's the analogy that Jesus used for hell, so it means that the true nature of hell can only be worse than the analogy. That's how Jesus' parables work. He used mundane imagry from daily life to teach about profound spiritual truths. This isn't a good thing for you. It is the worst possible fate that you could meet. And you find it "interesting?" Ought you not rather to mourn and repent of your religious beliefs? If St. Issac is right, then you are doomed to an eternity of suffering and have no hope of escape besides giving up your religious beliefs to follow Jesus Christ.

As you said, IF St. Issac is right (and to me it's a big if). This is the first time that I've ever heard his name Nor do I see how I have sinned against love, I greatly love and respect my fellow man, regardless of their life choices...to me not doing that is sinning against love.

I have no fear of hell, as I don't believe in it, Arunma...purely my choice, nor do I believe in Satan. I fully understand how you cannot believe that. I wonder the same thing about Christians (and also sometimes wonder at the things that you all believe in), and to be honest, the more I read and learn about Christianity the more I am baffled, confused by the inconsistancies and want nothing to do with it.

I also have to say that religious exclusivity also disturbs me greatly...yes, people are entitled to their opinions, views and faith, but I don't feel that they are entitled to push them onto others that don't want them nor look down on those that dare to disagree (I'm not addressing you personally, Arunma, I mean in general, after all, I did ask the question ).

Thank you for your reply...I find it interesting, but not frightening

 

[Chaplain David]

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[Minty]

MY SISTER--This is an old thought--wish?--that goes back to the early days of the Church.

i am Eastern Orthodox--which likewise goes back to the beginning--and the idea is mentioned several times in the writings of the Church Fathers. Significantly, the Orthodox Church has neither condemned nor accepted these musings, perhaps in the thought that there is not concrete--beyond a reasonable doubt--evidence one way or the other.

Given our God's great Mercy and Love, i find it quite possible that He has worked out a Just way of leading all His children back home just as He planned a Just way to become our Savior through the life, death, and Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. This would be wonderful, but i think we are going to have to just wait and see what eternity holds in this regard given that God has not spoken a definitive word on the subject.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

Thank you...and I understand what you mean...if God can do all of the things that He is meant to have done, as written of in Scripture, who are we mere humans to say what He can do after our deaths

 

[Minty]

Thank you all for your replies

Hello Sacerdote

 

[Jayangel81]

Nor do I see how I have sinned against love, I greatly love and respect my fellow man, regardless of their life choices...to me not doing that is sinning against love.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jesus would like to be loved by you as well

I also have to say that religious exclusivity also disturbs me greatly...yes, people are entitled to their opinions, views and faith, but I don't feel that they are entitled to push them onto others that don't want them nor look down on those that dare to disagree (I'm not addressing you personally, Arunma, I mean in general, after all, I did ask the question ).

Thank you for your reply...I find it interesting, but not frightening

Honestly, religion in general disturbs me

I understand what you mean by the whole "push onto people".

There are people out there that take things to drastic measures. Jesus never pushed anyone into believeing in Him, He never tried forcing people as some people do with "all religions" He did tell people bluntly to NOT die in their sins..


But people do still need to hear the truth, they may refuse it, fail to see the truth but we are still supposed to sow seeds, and encourage people to Christ, If we love them we would do this.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

"eat drink and be merry for eventually we all go to Heaven" sounds very politically correct and appropriate for our age. I do not think it is true.

 

[Minty]

Hi, Jay

Thank you for your reply.

I am working on loving Jesus...truly I am, sadly it is taking longer and longer, though

Reply received, understood and respected...that is the thing that I like about you, Jay...regardless of how our opinions on a subject may differ, we can still be friendly about our differences and understand the others point of view, even though we don't agree



Thank you for your reply, Dr. BubbaLove

 

[Jayangel81]

I am working on loving Jesus...truly I am, sadly it is taking longer and longer, though

I know

There are many people who are trying to love Jesus Minty, but those who give Him a false representation effect that in a person who is seeking Him.

Reply received, understood and respected...that is the thing that I like about you, Jay...regardless of how our opinions on a subject may differ, we can still be friendly about our differences and understand the others point of view, even though we don't agree

Well, I may disagree with you but I do still love you too

Besides who else am I going to go back and forth on these forums

 

[aiki]

Minty:

Was your OP question simply idle curiosity?

Nor do I see how I have sinned against love, I greatly love and respect my fellow man, regardless of their life choices...to me not doing that is sinning against love.

Do you expect that God's standard of love and yours are the same? If so, why? If not, do you think the difference doesn't matter?

As far as the Bible is concerned the best of us don't come anywhere near God's standard of loving purity. This is why we are told in Scripture that all our righteousness are as "filthy rags." The greatest degree of compassion and goodness a human can muster is fundamentally corrupted by the sin nature that all people possess. Until that is dealt with, the Bible tells us, we stand fatally separated from a sinless God. Convinced of this, I look at those who believe their good deeds are "good enough" and see a lethal blindness in them. Motivated by my love and concern for those who are so blinded, I speak the truth to them, which is that they are destined for an eternity of torment if they don't exchange their self-righteousness for the righteousness of Christ.

I could pat you on the back and say, "Well done, Minty! You are definitely good enough for God!" But that would be, as far as the Bible is concerned, a terrible, terrible lie. And telling such a lie would make me complicit in your eternal destruction. My duty, then, to you and to God, is to urge you to recognize the danger you are in and to accept God's avenue of escape from it. It is not arrogance, or a condemning spirit that motivates me, but concern for your welfare.

I have no fear of hell, as I don't believe in it, Arunma...purely my choice, nor do I believe in Satan. I fully understand how you cannot believe that. I wonder the same thing about Christians (and also sometimes wonder at the things that you all believe in), and to be honest, the more I read and learn about Christianity the more I am baffled, confused by the inconsistancies and want nothing to do with it.

If you truly want to understand the heart of Christianity, simply look at Christ. What inconsistencies you may see among Christ's followers are not necessarily an accurate reflection of Christ himself. The former are flawed, finite, sin-cursed creatures; the latter is holy perfection personified. Dismissing Christ because of the failings of his followers is rather like throwing the baby out with the bath-water.

I also have to say that religious exclusivity also disturbs me greatly...yes, people are entitled to their opinions, views and faith, but I don't feel that they are entitled to push them onto others that don't want them nor look down on those that dare to disagree (I'm not addressing you personally, Arunma, I mean in general, after all, I did ask the question ).

Hmmm...Aren't you pushing your perspective here? Aren't you excluding kinds of behaviour (ie. pushiness and looking down on dissenters) here? Seems like it to me...

If you aren't convinced of any particular religious perspective, I can see why you'd rebel against the idea that any one perspective is correct. Given that their doctrines and theology contradict one another, it is impossible for all religions to be right, however. Simple logic dictates that some, or perhaps all, are wrong. If there is one theological belief that is true, then any other theological belief at odds with it must be false. This is the nature of truth: It is necessarily exclusivistic.

If I believe I have the right of things theologically speaking, why is it not appropriate to defend that belief strenuously? Imagine a doctor who is convinced a patient is dying of appendicitis but who believes it would be "pushy" and "exclusionary" of him to insist on such a diagnosis. What if the patient himself had a different opinion on his ailment? Is the doctor in the wrong if he insists emphatically that he is correct and the patient not? I don't think so. It would, in fact, be downright criminal if a doctor didn't strongly defend what he believed to be true about his patient's state of health.

Anyway, just some thoughts to chew on.

Peace to you.

 

[Minty]

Thank you, Aiki...very interesting and as you say you have definitely given me some points to chew on...thank you


Jay, as always

 

[ephraimanesti]

I am working on loving Jesus...truly I am, sadly it is taking longer and longer, though

MY DEAR SISTER,

In regards to your struggle, might i recommend to you a book entitled HE LOVES ME by Wayne Jacobsen. i believe that there is a very good chance that you will find the missing key within it.

The 1st Edition of the book is available as a free download at:
http://lifestream.org/helovesme/index.html

Click on "Download 1st Edition as a PDF file"

There doesn't appear to be much difference between the 1st and the Second (which i have) Edition, so grab the freebee!

If you choose to check out the book, please P.M. me regarding your reaction to it when you are finished. The book blew me away--i hope it does the same for you.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim