Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[ozso]

I don't see Jesus in Luke 16 not in Hades and not in Abraham's bosom, which is a position not a place. Also Abraham said the rich man could not get out of the place he was and those with Abraham could not go the other way.
My view is much closer to what the passage says without interpolation.

You said, "There are no poor, brokenhearted, captives, blind, bruised in the grave/hell only the dead". Whereas in Luke 16, Abraham, Lazarus and the Rich Man are depicted as being very much alive.

 

[ozso]

But you have no problem saying that "aionios kolasis" i.e. eternal punishment is disproportionate although those are the very words Jesus, Himself, spoke.

Jesus spoke in Aramaic. "aionios kolasis" is a Konie Greek interpretation of what Jesus said.

And according to the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] "aionios kolasis" means eternal punishment.
Matthew 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mt 25:45–46). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.
http://fortsmithorthodox.org/NEW TESTAMENT.pdf

Can you name any of the natural born Greeks whom you said produced that 2011 translation?

 

[Saint Steven]

I was being facetious about an altar call in hell - but Steve actually LIKES IT!

Worthy of celebration.

Luke 15:7 NIV
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

 

[Hmm]

What do yall think is meant by Jesus preaching to those in prison?

Here are two verses that talk about this:

1 Peter 3.18-20a
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago...

1 Peter 4.6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

What does this mean for UR? I think firstly it shows that death is not the end of our relationship with God. Our status of Saved vs. Lost is not set and fixed at the moment of our death. Christ continues to pursue us even after death. I don't see what other meaning can be ascribed to these verses.

 

[Der Alte]

***

Jesus spoke in Aramaic. "aionios kolasis" is a Konie Greek interpretation of what Jesus said.

Prove it! Nice copout but it blows up in your face. If that is true then UR-ites can't know that it means "age during correction" either. Game, set, match.

Can you name any of the natural born Greeks whom you said produced that 2011 translation?

Sure, Just as soon as you identify the translators of your favorite version. I did not say "natural born" I said "native Greek speakers." I'm quite sure the Eastern Greek Orthodox Greek church didn't go out on the street and hire random people to translate their official Bible. I posted a link try finding the answer to your foolish questions there.

 

[ozso]

Prove it! Nice copout but it blows up in your face. If that is true then UR-ites can't know that it means "age during correction" either. Game, set, match.

Prove that Yahshua bar Yosef of Nazareth spoke Aramaic? Seriously? And bro, calm down. I was just stating a fact. Another fact is that the Koine Greek translation can be interpreted either way. It's up to the discretion and discernment of the reader as to which one is correct. There's nothing to win here. It's a matter of choice. I hope you haven't been trying to win something that's unwinnable all these years.

Sure, Just as soon as you identify the translators of your favorite version. I did not say "natural born" I said "native Greek speakers." I'm quite sure the Eastern Greek Orthodox Greek church didn't go out on the street and hire random people to translate their official Bible. I posted a link try finding the answer to your foolish questions there.

In other words you have no idea and you're just guessing.

 

[Der Alte]

***

Here are two verses that talk about this:
1 Peter 3.18-20a
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago...***

Posted previously, this thread. Why did you omit part of this vs.. Didn't fit your agenda?

1 Peter 3:20
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

Hell/the grave is never called "prison" and "prison" is never called "hell/the grave" in the Bible.
If the purpose for Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison was salvation then it was a failure. Only 8 people were saved, Noah and his family were saved but they were alive, not dead, when they were saved.
Jesus' earthly ministry is stated in Lk 4:18-19 it does not include preaching in the grave or hell.

Luke 4:18-19
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.​

The word translated "captives" literally means "prisoner of war." Those are the spirits in prison. There are no poor, brokenhearted, captives, blind, bruised in the grave/hell only the dead.

 

[ozso]

Posted previously, this thread. Why did you omit part of this vs.. Didn't fit your agenda?

1 Peter 3:20
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

Hell/the grave is never called "prison" and "prison" is never called "hell/the grave" in the Bible.
If the purpose for Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison was salvation then it was a failure. Only 8 people were saved, Noah and his family were saved but they were alive, not dead, when they were saved.
Jesus' earthly ministry is stated in Lk 4:18-19 it does not include preaching in the grave or hell.

Luke 4:18-19
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.​

The word translated "captives" literally means "prisoner of war." Those are the spirits in prison. There are no poor, brokenhearted, captives, blind, bruised in the grave/hell only the dead.

Perhaps the Greek Orthodox interpretation called the Harrowing of Hell will shed some light on it.

 

[Der Alte]

***

Perhaps the Greek Orthodox interpretation called the Harrowing of Hell will shed some light on it.

One video by some anonymous Greek orthodox priest does not make it The theology of the entire Greek Orthodox church.
See quotes from the official Bible of he Eastern Greek Orthodox church

EOB Matthew 25 45 Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”[1]
1 Cleenewerck, 1. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mt 25:45-46). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.​

Link to EOB online
http://fortsmithorthodox.org/NEW TESTAMENT.pdf

EOB Luke 16 22The rich man also died, and was buried. 23 In hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 He cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue! For I am in agony in this flame!’
25 But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime, you received your good things, and Lazarus, in the same way, bad things. But now, he is comforted here and you are in anguish. 26 Besides all this, between us and you a great gulf is fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot [do so], and that no one may cross over from there to us.’[1]
[1] Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Lk 16:22–26). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.

Mark 9:43 “If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off! It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than have your two hands and go into Gehenna,[fn Hell] the unquenchable fire 44 <‘where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’> 45 If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off! It is better for you to enter into life lame, rather than having your two feet to be cast into Gehenna,[fn Hell] the fire that will never be quenched, 46 <‘where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’> 47 If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out! It is better for you to enter into the Kingdom of God with one eye, rather than with two eyes to go into the Gehenna of fire,[fn Hell] 48 <‘where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’>
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mk 9:43–48). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.​

 

[Saint Steven]

Perhaps the Greek Orthodox interpretation called the Harrowing of Hell will shed some light on it.

Wow. Good video. Thanks for sharing.

 

[ozso]

Wow. Good video. Thanks for sharing.

My pleasure. He's a great source to learn about EO.

 

[ozso]

One video by some anonymous Greek orthodox priest does not make it The theology of the entire Greek Orthodox church.

Fr. Trenham is hardly anonymous lol. And that is well known ancient Greek Orthodox theology, no matter who presents it. Virtually every Greek Orthodox church has an icon depicting it. And it's the main sermon given during Easter.

 

[Der Alte]

***

Prove that Yahshua bar Yosef of Nazareth spoke Aramaic? Seriously?

Deliberate disingenuous misrepresentation of what I said. OBTW there is no such name as Yahshua. Try reading the Jewish Encyclopedia for correct writing of Hebrew names. "Yah" is never used at the beginning of a Theophoric name. I said nothing about Yeshua bar Yosef of Nazareth not speaking Aramaic. Want to try again, next time try the truth.

And bro, calm down. I was just stating a fact. Another fact is that the Koine Greek translation can be interpreted either way. It's up to the discretion and discernment of the reader as to which one is correct. There's nothing to win here. It's a matter of choice. I hope you haven't been trying to win something that's unwinnable all these years.

Wrong! You stated no fact about anything. It is not a choice. Try reading an unbiased translation, the EOB. Or do you want to accuse them of bias in favor of a biased UR supporting version?
Link:
http://fortsmithorthodox.org/NEW TESTAMENT.pdf

In other words you have no idea and you're just guessing

I never guess. I form conclusions based on the most reliable sources available. If you choose to find fault with the EOB apply the same standard to what ever your favorite version is.

 

[ozso]

Deliberate disingenuous misrepresentation of what I said. OBTW there is no such name as Yahshua. Try reading the Jewish Encyclopedia for correct writing of Hebrew names. "Yah" is never used at the beginning of a Theophoric name. I said nothing about Yeshua bar Yosef of Nazareth not speaking Aramaic. Want to try again, next time try the truth.

I said "Jesus spoke in Aramaic. "aionios kolasis" is a Konie Greek interpretation of what Jesus said" and you said "Prove it!". What else was I supposed to think that meant?

Wrong! You stated no fact about anything. It is not a choice. Try reading an unbiased translation, the EOB. Or do you want to accuse them of bias in favor of a biased UR supporting version Link:http://fortsmithorthodox.org/NEW TESTAMENT.pdf

It's a fact that there are different interpretations of scripture, and one can choose the one that they've decided is the most accurate.

I never guess. I form conclusions based on the most reliable sources available. If you choose to find fault with the EOB apply the same standard to what ever your favorite version is.

Well since you're claiming the 2011 EOB was translated by "native Greek speakers", but you don't know who actually translated it, then you must be guessing.

 

[Hmm]

Fr. Trenham is hardly anonymous lol. And that is well known ancient Greek Orthodox theology, no matter who presents it. Virtually every Greek Orthodox church has an icon depicting it. And it's the main sermon given during Easter.

Yes, as Father Josiah says in the video, the plundering of Hades is mentioned over 200 times in the Pentecostarion, the liturgical book used by the Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic churches during the Paschal Season.

Just to highlight a couple of things from the vid, Father Josiah calls it an "essential, fundamental Gospel truth that Jesus descended into hell and destroyed it and delivered those who are there turning hell into a defeated wasteland".

To further quote him, "it's a tragedy that many Christians have no understanding or place Jesus' descent into hell in their own experience. This is because some are in forms of Christianity that don't liturgically celebrate Holy Saturday at all. Perhaps they have a Good Friday service and an Easter service but Saturday's a kind of hiatus and they don't understand what's happening then. Or perhaps they're in a Christian tradition that explicitly denies Jesus' descent into hell at all...like John Calvin".

That's certainly been my experience as a Protestant. I'd never heard of Holy Saturday before this vid. The Saturday between Good Friday and Easter Sunday just seemed to be simply a waiting day where nothing happend. I feel I have missed out a lot by not being taught properly about how Jesus saves us.

Good video and less than 10 mins. long!

 

[ozso]

Yes, as Father Josiah says in the video, the plundering of Hades is mentioned over 200 times in the Pentecostarion, the liturgical book used by the Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic churches during the Paschal Season.

Just to highlight a couple of things from the vid, Father Josiah calls it an "essential, fundamental Gospel truth that Jesus descended into hell and destroyed it and delivered those who are there turning hell into a defeated wasteland".

To further quote him, "it's a tragedy that many Christians have no understanding or place Jesus' descent into hell in their own experience. This is because some are in forms of Christianity that don't liturgically celebrate Holy Saturday at all. Perhaps they have a Good Friday service and an Easter service but Saturday's a kind of hiatus and they don't understand what's happening then. Or perhaps they're in a Christian tradition that explicitly denies Jesus' descent into hell at all...like John Calvin".

That's certainly been my experience as a Protestant. I'd never heard of Holy Saturday before this vid. The Saturday between Good Friday and Easter Sunday just seemed to be simply a waiting day where nothing happend. I feel I have missed out a lot by not being taught properly about how Jesus saves us.

Good video and less than 10 mins. long!

It's quite interesting and enlightening getting to know the Orthodox view of heaven, hell and salvation. It's certainly a lot more optimistic and less grim than the Protestant view. But at the same time with Theosis they don't play softball when it comes to our responsibilities as disciples of Christ.

When it comes to poisoning the well, the Greek Orthodox are going to be more inclined to point a finger at Augustine and John Calvin (and those who follow after them) rather than someone like David Bentley Heart. Or Origen when it comes to ECFs.

 

[Hmm]

It's quite interesting and enlightening getting to know the Orthodox view of heaven, hell and salvation. It's certainly a lot more optimistic and less grim than the Protestant view

The Orthodox church does seem to embody a wisdom that the Protestant tradition lacks with its emphasis on intellectual belief systems. I was reading an extract from Bride of Christ by the Russian Orthodox theologian Segius Bulgakov which is very hopeful but not sentimental at all. He doesn't see salvation apart from repentance and says that we should fear hell but that we should trust God more. “The torments of hell are a longing for God caused by the love of God,” he says.

He says that it's blasphemy to think that evil will triumph over the the risen Christ. He rejects any forcing of people by God into salvation because it wouldn't work and it shouldn't be done anyway. But still God will manage to save all because we are all created in his image. The divine judgment is nothing less than the full revelation of Christ in whose image we are all made. “Every human being sees himself in Christ and measures the extent of his difference from this proto-image,” he says. “A human being cannot fail to love the Christ who is revealed in him, and he cannot fail to love himself revealed in Christ.”

 

[Saint Steven]

The Orthodox church does seem to embody a wisdom that the Protestant tradition lacks with its emphasis on intellectual belief systems.

Probably a matter of pedigree.
The Church of the East > The Church of the West > Protestantism
The Church of the East > Orthodoxy

 

[Andrewn]

One video by some anonymous Greek orthodox priest does not make it The theology of the entire Greek Orthodox church.

Because you are a Baptist, you may not be familiar with the Apostolic Creed. This Creed is approved not only by Greek Orthodox but also Roman Catholics, Lutherans, and Anglicans. We frequently recite it in the Anglican Church. Only Credobaptists are not familiar with it. In part the Creed says:

And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord;
who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.

The Apostles’ Creed | Reformed Church in America

The belief in Obliterating Hell is a traditional Christian belief:

Harrowing of Hell - Wikipedia

 

[Saint Steven]

Because you are a Baptist, you may not be familiar with the Apostolic Creed. This Creed is approved not only by Greek Orthodox but also Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, and Reformed. Only Credobaptists are not familiar with it. In part the Creed says:

And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord;
who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.

The Apostles’ Creed | Reformed Church in America

The belief in Obliterating Hell is a traditional Christian belief:

Harrowing of Hell - Wikipedia

I seem to remember one of the creeds saying, "... he rose from the grave..."
Which makes me wonder if it was a reference to "The Grave", as in the realm of the dead, Sheol, rather than an earthly grave. (hole in the ground) Besides, he was laid in an above ground tomb, not buried in the ground, a grave. From whence did our savior rise? (rise = somewhere below to somewhere above)