Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Andrewn]

Or perhaps they're in a Christian tradition that explicitly denies Jesus' descent into hell at all...like John Calvin".

It seems that Father Josiah Trenham is both right and wrong on this point. Calvin apparently believed in Jesus' descent into Hades, but only in humiliation. Traditional Christians believe that the Lord descended into Hades in victorious glorification.

That's certainly been my experience as a Protestant. I'd never heard of Holy Saturday before this vid. The Saturday between Good Friday and Easter Sunday just seemed to be simply a waiting day where nothing happend. I feel I have missed out a lot by not being taught properly about how Jesus saves us.

Holy Saturday is also called Bright Saturday.

https://www.smaam.church/holy-week-guide/saturday/

 

[Hmm]

Holy Saturday is also called Bright Saturday

That's a great name!

 

[Saint Steven]

It seems that Father Josiah Trenham is both right and wrong on this point. Calvin apparently believed in Jesus' descent into Hades, but only in humiliation. Traditional Christians believe that the Lord descended into Hades in victorious glorification.

I took it more as a reference to CalvinISM than to Calvin. Maybe I misunderstood.

 

[Andrewn]

I seem to remember one of the creeds saying, "... he rose from the grave..."

It is possible to translate "rose again from the grave" but more accurately translated, the Creed says "rose again from the dead."

Which makes me wonder if it was a reference to "The Grave", as in the realm of the dead, Sheol, rather than an earthly grave. (hole in the ground)

Before the Lord's resurrection, his body was in the tomb and his spirit in Paradise (after the harrowing of Hades).

Besides, he was laid in an above ground tomb, not buried in the ground, a grave. From whence did our savior rise? (rise = somewhere below to somewhere above)

The Greek word "anistemi" usually translated "rise" means to "stand up." as in the following verses:

Mat 9:9 As Jesus went on from there, He saw a man called Matthew, sitting in the tax collector’s booth; and He *said to him, “Follow Me!” And he stood up and followed Him.

Mat 26:62 The high priest stood up and said to Him, “Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying againstYou?”

Mar 1:35 In the early morning, while it was still dark, Jesus stood up, left the house, and went away to a secluded place, and was praying there.

Mar 5:42 Immediately the girl stood up and began to walk, for she was twelve years old. And immediately they were completely astounded.

And so on.

 

[Hmm]

Before the Lord's resurrection, his body was in the tomb and his spirit in Paradise (after the harrowing of Hades).

I still can't believe I've never been taught this in any church I've ever been to, chiefly Anglican. I feel like asking for my money back under the Trades Description Act!

 

[Saint Steven]

It is possible to translate "rose again from the grave" but more accurately translated, the Creed says "rose again from the dead."

Before the Lord's resurrection, his body was in the tomb and his spirit in Paradise (after the harrowing of Hades).

In that case "rose from the dead" might be a reference to "the dead" as in the realm of the dead. Either way, seems a bit open ended.

 

[Saint Steven]

I still can't believe I've never been taught this in any church I've ever been to, chiefly Anglican. I feel like asking for my money back under the Trades Description Act!

We have a 90 day guarantee offer at our church.

Try Jesus for 90 days.
If you aren't completely satisfied, you can have all your old sins back.

 

[Hmm]

We have a 90 day guarantee offer at our church.

Try Jesus for 90 days.
If you aren't completely satisfied, you can have all your old sins back.

That's not a bad slogan to get new faces through the door!

 

[Der Alte]

Because you are a Baptist, you may not be familiar with the Apostolic Creed. This Creed is approved not only by Greek Orthodox but also Roman Catholics, Lutherans, and Anglicans. We frequently recite it in the Anglican Church. Only Credobaptists are not familiar with it. In part the Creed says:
And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord;
who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.
The Apostles’ Creed | Reformed Church in America
The belief in Obliterating Hell is a traditional Christian belief:
Harrowing of Hell - Wikipedia

I am well aware of the Athanasian Creed. My current church recites it every week prior to the sermon, in Korean, while I recite it in English.
From your Wiki link, "

Jesus Christ's descent into the world of the dead is referred to in the Apostle's and the Athanasian Creed (Quicumque vult), which state that he "descended into the underworld" (descendit ad inferos), although neither mention that he liberated the dead.​

The verse which folks rely on for Jesus' descent to "the spirits in prison" does not support saving everyone.

1 Peter 3:20
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

Only 8 were saved, Noah and his family. What was Jesus' purpose?
Whatever "hell" is, is ultimately destroyed the Lake of Fire remains εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων/for ever and for ever. Revelation 20:10

 

[ozso]

Greek Orthodox barely acknowledge Revelation.

 

[Der Alte]

***

Greek Orthodox barely acknowledge Revelation.

Your source?

EOB
Rev .2: 11 Whoever has an ear should listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.”[1]
Rev 19:20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked the signs in his sight and by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who expressed adoration to his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.[2]
Rev 20.10 The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night, unto ages of ages.[3]
Rev 20.14 Then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death! 15 Anyone who was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.[4]
Rev 21.8 But as for the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”[5]

[1] Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Re 2:10–11). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.​

Link to EOB:
http://fortsmithorthodox.org/NEW TESTAMENT.pdf

 

[ozso]

Your source?

Members of the Orthodox Church. Here's something I happened to have read recently. Be sure to complain about him being anonymous

The Revelation was always a disputed book. It barely made it into the bible. Very little emphasis is placed on it in the Orthodox Church.

You know they're not sola scriptura, and go by other sources like the Philokalia and Apocatastatic Hymnody etc, right?

 

[Hmm]

Members of the Orthodox Church. Here's something I happened to have read recently. Be sure to complain about him being anonymous

In any event, Revelation is prophectic and reads like a dream sequence, so the rest of scripture should not be interpreted in the light of this book, rather it should be the other way round.

 

[Der Alte]

Members of the Orthodox Church. Here's something I happened to have read recently. Be sure to complain about him being anonymous
You know they're not sola scriptura, and go by other sources like the Philokalia and Apocatastatic Hymnody etc, right?

How convenient. Got any documentation? Unless I see some, meaningless internet gossip. But that seems to be routine for UR believers. My thoughts are that the other "sources" can't and don't supersede the EOB.

In any event, Revelation is prophectic and reads like a dream sequence, so the rest of scripture should not be interpreted in the light of this book, rather it should be the other way round.

Nice try but total rubbish. It is revelation from God and should be treated exactly as all other scripture.

 

[ozso]

How convenient. Got any documentation? Unless I see some, meaningless internet gossip. But that seems to be routine for UR believers. My thoughts are that the other "sources" can't and don't supersede the EOB.

Bro, you arbitrarily reject anything you don't like. Do you really think I'm interested in what you personally accept? That's pretty much at the bottom of my list of priorities. And your thoughts are just that. What I've said about the Orthodox Church is common basic knowledge for anyone who's familiar with it. The only thing you seem to have to go by regarding a 2000 year old church is a 20 year old Bible.

 

[ozso]

In any event, Revelation is prophetic and reads like a dream sequence, so the rest of scripture should not be interpreted in the light of this book, rather it should be the other way round.

It hasn't been very popular with Orthodox, Catholic and mainline Protestant denominations. Whereas many evangelicals go bonkers over it.

Edit: I should stipulate that Revelation isn't read in the Orthodox Church, but it is a part of Orthodox liturgy.

 

[Der Alte]

***

Bro, you arbitrarily reject everything you don't like. Do you really think I'm interested in what you personally accept? That's pretty much at the bottom of my list of priorities. And your thoughts are just that.

You can't back up what you say and try to shift the blame to me. Got it. I rarely give my unsupported opinion. And I can and do provide documentation when requested. You should try that.

What I've said about the Orthodox Church is common basic knowledge for anyone who's familiar with it. The only thing you seem to have to go by regarding a 2000 year old church is a 20 year old Bible.

Ah yes the old "common basic knowledge" cop-out.
I have much more than a "20 year old bible" I have a Bible translated by native Greek speaking scholars whose church and language has continued unabated for 2000 years +/-. If I want info about e.g. Israel who should I ask people who live in Israel or Palestinians?
You reject the EOB because it disproves UR-ism and it is probably one of, if not, the most correct, reliable version currently available.
You really should check the appendices of the EOB you might learn something important.

 

[ozso]

You can't back up what you say and try to shift the blame to me. Got it. I rarely give my unsupported opinion. And I can and do provide documentation when requested. You should try that.

When I've asked you to back up things you've said, you've completely ignored it and then went on to repost that same material.

Ah yes the old "common basic knowledge" cop-out.

It would only seem that way to someone who didn't know much about Orthodox Church.

I have much more than a "20 year old bible" I have a Bible translated by native Greek speaking scholars whose church and language has continued unabated for 2000 years +/-.

Since you don't know who translated the 2011 EOB, you're assuming it was translated by native Greek speaking scholars.

If I want info about e.g. Israel who should I ask people who live in Israel or Palestinians?

So are you saying the EOB gives you information about Greece? Or that the Orthodox Church only consists of Greeks? Hard to tell where you're going with that.

You reject the EOB because it disproves UR-ism

No those are your thoughts as in something you made up.

and it is probably one of, if not, the most correct, reliable version currently available.

Probably one of, yes.

You really should check the appendices of the EOB you might learn something important.

If you followed your own advice, you'd know who translated it.

 

[Der Alte]

* * *Since you don't know who translated the 2011 EOB, you're assuming it was translated by native Greek speaking scholars.
* * *
If you followed your own advice, you'd know who translated it.

I said I would as soon as you provided me that information about your favorite version. So get busy. Don't ask for something you are incapable of or unwilling to provide yourself. Shoot me a PM when you do that.
ETA: I have a list let me know when you have yours. Speak now or forever hold your peace.

 

[ozso]

I said I would as soon as you provided me that information about your favorite version. So get busy. Don't ask for something you are incapable of or unwilling to provide yourself. Shoot me a PM when you do that.
ETA: I have a list let me know when you have yours. Speak now or forever hold your peace.

I never made any statement about who translated my "favorite version". Nor do I have a "favorite version".

Whereas you stated more than once the EOB was translated by "native Greek speaking scholars". Either that's something you know, or you're just guessing it was. Be honest, which is it?