Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Andrewn]

Was the punishment that God administered to the all the people of the earth at the time of Noah, proprotionate.

This is often cited by atheists to prove that God is unjust. But I think what the Lord did after his death proves that He is just and his punishment is proportional:

1Pe 3:19 In the spirit also Christ went to preach to the spirits in prison, 20 those who had refused to obey long ago while God waited patiently in the days of Noah during the building of the ark. In it only a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.

So, Christ did justice to those who had been killed in the Flood by saving their spirits from eternal damnation.

 

[Fervent]

The context is God and His glory, Christ and him crucified. That's always the context. And that glory is the consummation of the plan, which is God's Salvation, the raising to life in Christ of the fallen dead in Adam. Not really a coherent narrative for God's glory and a plan coming together if Adam turns out to be greater than Christ, now is it? So is true obedience possible without faith in Christus victor?

No, the context is the historical and literary picture of the text. Anything else and you're making the Bible say something it doesn't say.

Really? How does any other eschatology give full credit to God's power? Because any old deity can kill and destroy, satan does that all the livelong day. Only God can truly convert His enemies, by changing hearts and opening eyes.

Really? Because Jesus said:
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

So your claim that Satan has power that Jesus says belongs only to God is, well, not based on the Biblical data.

Nothing of substance...except the word of God. Don't worry, Jesus may not have been looking at you. But seriously, why dismiss that scripture? It's a classic statement of principle of Christian interpretation. That's what the atheists are always getting wrong, demanding that God 'prove his existence' usually in some kind of petty empiricist way that only betrays their pride. As though the Maker of heaven and earth kowtows to the foolishness of their wisdom. Hence a variation on the theme: God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. It's restated in so many ways. Submit to Christ and believe.

There was no Scripture there, just a vague assassination attempt painting my objections as coming from jealousy. Nothing worth discussing other than to point out the unjustified personal attack.

 

[Der Alte]

This is often cited by atheists to prove that God is unjust. But I think what the Lord did after his death proves that He is just and his punishment is proportional:
1Pe 3:19 In the spirit also Christ went to preach to the spirits in prison, 20 those who had refused to obey long ago while God waited patiently in the days of Noah during the building of the ark. In it only a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
So, Christ did justice to those who had been killed in the Flood by saving their spirits from eternal damnation.

We have a different understanding of that vs.. Hell/the grave is never called "prison" and "prison" is never called "hell/the grave" in the Bible.
If the purpose for Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison was salvation then it was a failure. Only 8 people were saved, Noah and his family, but they were alive, not dead, when they were saved.
Jesus' earthly ministry is stated in Lk 4:18-19 it does not include preaching in the grave or hell.

Luke 4:18-19
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.​

The word translated "captives" literally means "prisoner of war." Those are the spirits in prison. There are no poor, brokenhearted, captives, blind, bruised in the grave/hell only the dead.

 

[Hmm]

There was no Scripture there, just a vague assassination attempt painting my objections as coming from jealousy. Nothing worth discussing other than to point out the unjustified personal attack.

This is a very novel debate tactic: anyone who disagrees with you is personally jealous of you. A Christmas comedy great, thanks for the laugh

 

[Der Alte]

This is a very novel debate tactic: anyone who disagrees with you is personally jealous of you. A Christmas comedy great, thanks for the laugh

A little comprehension disconnect.This is what @Fervent said "a vague assassination attempt painting my objections as coming from jealousy."

 

[Hmm]

A little comprehension disconnect.

Indeed. I was talking about projection.

 

[Der Alte]

Indeed. I was talking about projection.

You still don't get it You said "anyone who disagrees with you [Fervent] is personally jealous of you [Fervent]." Here you accuse Fervent of saying you were jealous of him.
What he said "a vague assassination attempt [by you] painting my [Fervent's] objections as coming from [your] jealousy."

 

[Hmm]

You still don't get it You said "anyone who disagrees with you [Fervent] is personally jealous of you [Fervent]." Here you accuse Fervent of saying you were jealous of him.
What he said "a vague assassination attempt [by you] painting my [Fervent's] objections as coming from [your] jealousy."

Never mind

 

[Der Alte]

Never mind

If that is not what you meant you can go back and correct the post or repost it.

 

[Fervent]

You still don't get it You said "anyone who disagrees with you [Fervent] is personally jealous of you [Fervent]." Here you accuse Fervent of saying you were jealous of him.
What he said "a vague assassination attempt [by you] painting my [Fervent's] objections as coming from [your] jealousy."

I wouldn't necessarily insert the last [your]. The insinuation of the verses cited in the manner they were would be that the only reason someone would object to UR is jealousy over others having an easier go of it, which of course we know is untrue.

 

[Gundy22]

1Pe 3:19

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

There's different ways I can see that.

After the crucifixion Christ preached to both those in Abraham's Bosom as well as those in a less agreeable place.

After the crucifixion Christ preached to just those in Abraham's Bosom - but this is unlikely.

After the crucifixion Christ preached to those in Torments, Tophet, hades and told them Sorry - yall are the Bad Guys - I am taking The Good Guys with me - yall stay where you are

 

[Der Alte]

I wouldn't necessarily insert the last [your]. The insinuation of the verses cited in the manner they were would be that the only reason someone would object to UR is jealousy over others having an easier go of it, which of course we know is untrue.

I plead advanced age. My picture was taken 1st year of FDRs last term.

 

[Gundy22]

Maybe Jesus expressed their ultimate destination in theological terms - using words like Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, Tophet, Tartarus, etc.

What do yall think is meant by Jesus preaching to those in prison?

It's not like He gave an altar call in Hell.

 

[Saint Steven]

It's not like He gave an altar call in Hell.

That's what I think happened actually.

In terms of who were preached to...

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

 

[Der Alte]

1Pe 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
There's different ways I can see that.
After the crucifixion Christ preached to both those in Abraham's Bosom as well as those in a less agreeable place.
After the crucifixion Christ preached to just those in Abraham's Bosom - but this is unlikely.
After the crucifixion Christ preached to those in Torments, Tophet, hades and told them Sorry - yall are the Bad Guys - I am taking The Good Guys with me - yall stay where you are

Previously posted this thread.
Hell/the grave is never called "prison" and "prison" is never called "hell/the grave" in the Bible.
If the purpose for Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison was salvation then it was a failure. Only 8 people were saved, Noah and his family, but they were alive, not dead, when they were saved.
Jesus' earthly ministry is stated in Lk 4:18-19 it does not include preaching in the grave or hell.

Luke 4:18-19
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.​

The word translated "captives" literally means "prisoner of war." Those are the spirits in prison. There are no poor, brokenhearted, captives, blind, bruised in the grave/hell only the dead.

 

[Saint Steven]

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?
Answer: the realm of the dead

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also
descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended
higher than all the heavens,
in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

 

[Gundy22]

I was being facetious about an altar call in hell - but Steve actually LIKES IT!

 

[ozso]

We have a different understanding of that vs.. Hell/the grave is never called "prison" and "prison" is never called "hell/the grave" in the Bible.
If the purpose for Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison was salvation then it was a failure. Only 8 people were saved, Noah and his family, but they were alive, not dead, when they were saved.
Jesus' earthly ministry is stated in Lk 4:18-19 it does not include preaching in the grave or hell.

Luke 4:18-19
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.​

The word translated "captives" literally means "prisoner of war." Those are the spirits in prison. There are no poor, brokenhearted, captives, blind, bruised in the grave/hell only the dead.

Isn't that in contradiction to what's said about Luke 16:19-31? That those in hell are very much alive?

 

[ozso]

I was being facetious about an altar call in hell - but Steve actually LIKES IT!

As does the ancient church

 

[Der Alte]

Isn't that in contradiction to what's said about Luke 16:19-31? That those in hell are very much alive? Also Andrewn's take on 1Peter 3:19 is comparable to the Eastern Orthodox view.

I don't see Jesus in Luke 16 not in Hades and not in Abraham's bosom, which is a position not a place. Also Abraham said the rich man could not get out of the place he was and those with Abraham could not go the other way.
My view is much closer to what the passage says without interpolation.