Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[ozso]

 

[ozso]

Who needs Biblical exegesis when you have cute cartoons and humor, right?

I'll take humor over snark any day of the week.

 

[Hmm]

Who needs Biblical exegesis when you have cute cartoons and humor, right?

This implies that we have seen good exegesis from Team Hell but all we've had so far are the "original" and non-expert theories you have spoken about. Humour and cartoons aren't a bad way to fill in the gaps.

 

[Hark]

What is it about universal redemption that annoys so many Christians? Shouldn’t we be happy that God’s love and mercy are wider, higher, deeper, and broader than we could ever imagine? We all sin at times so shouldn't we welcome the thought that God is not going to annihilate or eternally torment us if we don't “accept,” “trust,” “repent,” “believe,” well enough to appropriate the grace of God?

You would think so but it seems from the recent threads on Christian Universalism that this is not the case. Why is this?

Here are some of the reasons that have been expressed in the threads:

1. ”If everyone is or will be saved, what’s the point in following Jesus?”

To me, anyone who thinks this must see following Jesus as a heavy burden, one that needs the reward of heaven to make it worth the hassle. But shouldn't following Jesus and having a good relationship with him here and now be its own reward?

It's also a misunderstanding of Christian Universalism to think it says that we don't have to receive the saving grace of Christ in order to be reconciled to God and to each other. It just says that if we don't manage to do this in this life there will be boundless opportunities to do so in the next one and that eventually every one will accept forgiveness and repent of their sins... ”that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth" (Phil 2:10)

Not every one will be saved since those under the earth in hell are not. They will bow anyway because Jesus is Lord.

If you read about the lake of fire, there is no coming out of that les death and Satan will too.

Revelation 19:20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.....14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth should take heed to the warning for taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell to survive in the New World Order.

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The bio chip to buy & sell is already at work in Europe but it is not the mark of the beast yet because it is not the only means to buy & sell with. When it is the only way to buy & sell for every one in the coming New World Order, then that is the mark of the beast. If it was not a big deal, then there be no warning of the consequences, but there is and so Christian Universalism falls flat.

2. "All my hard work at being a Christian has been undermined".
This is very much like 1. Shouldn't any work we do be done out of love for God, not for any personal eternal rewards?

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's; 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

If Christians are looking to works to get some reward in Heaven, they shouldn't for we are profitless servants as it is God that ministers and working whereby we are the works of His hands. Since no flesh can glory in His Presence, and the crowns we receive up there will be cast at His feet as they are His crowning achievements in us, believers need to find that rest in Jesus Christ.

Psalm 100:2 Serve the Lord with gladness: come before his presence with singing. 3 Know ye that the Lord he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture. 4 Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.

There is a race to be run by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily per Hebrews 12:1-2 to avoid the consequence of defiling the temple of God, get left behind to die, even though their spirits will be with the Lord per 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 & Revelation 2:18-25 to await their resurrection after the great tribulation.

Let us see how we are saved and how works are applied.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Then Paul place where works is at as being profitable unto men.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

When we acknowledge that in Christ, we move and have our being, then we would be thanking Jesus for any good work He led us & enable us to do.

3. ”If there is an 'us,' there has to be a 'them'"
This may be true about some things such as football: I support Manchester United so I hate Manchester City (I'm from the UK, apologies) but it needn't apply to matters of faith. If we are going to heaven when we die there doesn't have to be a group who go to hell.

These three reasons seem to have something in common and that's judgementalism. They're all essentially saying "Look, I'm a good Christian and my hard work and sacrifices has earned me membership into the very exclusive club of heaven and, sad to say it, but most other people haven't done anywhere nearly as enough as me and so, unfortunately, missed out on the opportunity." This makes you think of the work vs. faith debate ironically but, moving swiftly on from that, isn't it true that being judgemental is wrong and if that's the main reason behind our objection to Christian Universalism, shouldn't we consider that we might be misunderstanding it?

There are biblical arguments that can be made for and against Christian Universalism but there are plenty of existing threads discussing that so, assuming anyone wants to respond!, I'd be more interested in hearing what your gut, visceral reaction is, whether for or against, when you hear the words "Christian Universalism". For me, it's basically relief that God is a loving God and not a monster after all.

Doesn't society have prisons and death penalties? What for? To keep society safe.

That is what hell & the lake of fire is for, to punish those who love their evil deeds rather than come to the light to be reproved of them. How can God keep His promise of providing a Heaven where sin will never separates us from God ever again if hell & death & Satan & all those who love evil more than come to the Jesus to be saved from their sins were not being cast into the lake of fire?

Eternal torment is a judgment from God that stands fast forever which serves as assurance to those in the Kingdom of Heaven that they will never be separated from God ever again.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Is society a monster for having life long prison sentence and death penalties? Then neither is God.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Sinners will get worse & worse and dying in unbelief has that sin flowering to its full effect of separating them from God and all that is good; hell and eventually the lake of fire. There are even mockers that boast of rather being in hell to party with their friends than go to Heaven to live with God.

Proverbs 8:35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the Lord. 36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

That is the reality of the life we live in. If you seek a safe home for your family by not having a hardened criminal release into your home, then why should you expect God to be any different?

 

[Der Alte]

This implies that we have seen good exegesis from Team Hell but all we've had so far are the "original" and non-expert theories you have spoken about. Humour and cartoons aren't a bad way to fill in the gaps.

You have seen good exegesis. You refuse to accept it choosing instead to believe anything, everything that some UR believing "scholar" says, without question.
Not realizing that simply posting an opposing translation does not disprove what you reject.
I have posted a study of every occurrence of "aionios" in the N.T. showing how Jesus, Paul and other NT writers describe/define "aionios" which has not been reasonably addressed. And certainly not refuted.
I have quoted from the Eastern Orthodox Bible. Crickets.

 

[Hmm]

Not every one will be saved since those under the earth in hell are not. They will bow anyway because Jesus is Lord.

Yes, every knee in heaven, on earth and under the earth shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. But this means that everyone is saved because no-one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3)

The bio chip to buy & sell is already at work in Europe but it is not the mark of the beast yet because it is not the only means to buy & sell with. When it is the only way to buy & sell for every one in the coming New World Order, then that is the mark of the beast. If it was not a big deal, then there be no warning of the consequences, but there is and so Christian Universalism falls flat.

Where does Scripture mention bio chips? This sounds more like QAnon to me.

Doesn't society have prisons and death penalties? What for? To keep society safe.

Yes, but a life-sentence is not the only sentence available to the courts. Sentences are proportionate and ideally rehabilitative as well as punitive so that the prisoner can readjust back into society upon release. This is not the case with the one-size-fits-all approach of ECT where Hitler and Gandhi are given the same sentence and, worse, a sentence in which there is no rehabilitation and no end and therefore no purpose other than torment for torments sake.

That is the reality of the life we live in. If you seek a safe home for your family by not having a hardened criminal release into your home, then why should you expect God to be any different?

You're right, I wouldn't want to see Hitler types in heaven unless they have repented and gladly confessed that Jesus is Lord because that would be disrespectful to all their victims. But, luckily, as we have seen, scripture tells us that one day they will. This obviously doesn't always happen in this life, so for some.it must happen in "hell".

 

[Der Alte]

* * * You're right, I wouldn't want to see Hitler types in heaven unless they have repented and gladly confessed that Jesus is Lord because that would be disrespectful to all their victims. But, luckily, as we have seen, scripture tells us that one day they will. This obviously doesn't always happen in this life, so for some.it must happen in "hell".

Where does scripture tell us that at some point al evil, unrighteous people "repent and gladly confess that Jesus is Lord?" I read where there will wailing and gnashing of teeth but no confessing.

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10-11
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
JPS Prov 24:20
(20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
Ephesians 2:12
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
1Thessalonians 4:13
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Psalms 115:17
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Ecclesiastes 9:10
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.​

 

[Lazarus Short]

Yes, but a life-sentence is not the only sentence available to the courts. Sentences are proportionate and ideally rehabilitative as well as punitive so that the prisoner can readjust back into society upon release. This is not the case with the one-size-fits-all approach of ECT where Hitler and Gandhi are given the same sentence and, worse, a sentence in which there is no rehabilitation and no end and therefore no purpose other than torment for torments sake.

I noticed, while reading the Law that God gave to Moses, that punishments were proportionate, and that the worst sentence for any sin/crime was simple death. Never was a punishment after death mentioned or hinted at. Many, many years later, Paul wrote, "For he that is dead is freed from sin." Romans 6:7, KJV

 

[Hark]

Yes, every knee in heaven, on earth and under the earth shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. But this means that everyone is saved because no-one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3)

That 1 Corinthians 12:3 being said in the land of the living for how the church is to discern believers from unbelieving sinners that come into the congregation..

If you wish to contend that no one goes to hell or the lake of fire, then why are they there as beneath the earth? Them taking the knee as beneath the earth is them accepting His judgment of eternal torment.

Where does Scripture mention bio chips? This sounds more like QAnon to me.

The mark of the beast will be the bio chip soon to be revealed in the coming new world order after the rapture event for when a third of the earth will get burned up ( the entire western hemisphere ) for why resources will be pooled for survival and the world has to take the mark in order to buy & sell to survive.

Yes, but a life-sentence is not the only sentence available to the courts. Sentences are proportionate and ideally rehabilitative as well as punitive so that the prisoner can readjust back into society upon release. This is not the case with the one-size-fits-all approach of ECT where Hitler and Gandhi are given the same sentence and, worse, a sentence in which there is no rehabilitation and no end and therefore no purpose other than torment for torments sake.

In the grand scheme of eternity, when a sinner dies never having believed in Jesus Christ, that sin that has been getting worse & worse in the land of the living, will be really bad after death hat it achieves its results; separation from God and all that is good; hence hell and the lake of fire.

You're right, I wouldn't want to see Hitler types in heaven unless they have repented and gladly confessed that Jesus is Lord because that would be disrespectful to all their victims. But, luckily, as we have seen, scripture tells us that one day they will. This obviously doesn't always happen in this life, so for some.it must happen in "hell".

You should heed this;

2 Corinthians 6:1We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) 3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

Sinners should not procrastinate. They need to come to Jesus for help to save them from their sins and not just to have eternal life by believing in Him because death can strike at any moment.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[ozso]

You have seen good exegesis. You refuse to accept it choosing instead to believe anything, everything that some UR believing "scholar" says, without question.
Not realizing that simply posting an opposing translation does not disprove what you reject.
I have posted a study of every occurrence of "aionios" in the N.T. showing how Jesus, Paul and other NT writers describe/define "aionios" which has not been reasonably addressed. And certainly not refuted.
I have quoted from the Eastern Orthodox Bible. Crickets.

I'm sure you know by now after all the years you've dogged universalist threads, that both sides have presented scripture, exegesis, studies of "aionios", ECF writings, theologians and scholars etc. From what I've seen you're just as unwilling to accept their evidence, as they are to except yours. You talk about crickets, yet I've experienced that from you as well on several occasions.

 

[ozso]

The mark of the beast will be the bio chip soon to be revealed in the coming new world order after the rapture event for when a third of the earth will get burned up ( the entire western hemisphere ) for why resources will be pooled for survival and the world has to take the mark in order to buy & sell to survive.

The bio chip is one of umpteen theories. Remember, it was going to be a UPC code back when those came out.

 

[Gundy22]

And Henry Kissinger was going to be the AntiChrist...

 

[Hark]

The bio chip is one of umpteen theories. Remember, it was going to be a UPC code back when those came out.

True, but it is looking more and more to be that mark of the beast. Be scary if that RNA programmable sequence per that Covid 19 vaccine can be re-utilized for that purpose.

Hopefully, the Lord shall deliver me at the rapture event to escape that hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth.

 

[Der Alte]

I noticed, while reading the Law that God gave to Moses, that punishments were proportionate, and that the worst sentence for any sin/crime was simple death. Never was a punishment after death mentioned or hinted at. Many, many years later, Paul wrote, "For he that is dead is freed from sin." Romans 6:7, KJV

Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context as you have done here.
Paul also wrote,

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: [no wrongdoer] neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesian 5:5 For this ye know, that [no wrongdoer] no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

Twenty two groups of people, no inheritance. No ifs, and, buts, or maybes or saved by death. Do you suppose that Paul forgot what he said in Romans when he wrote 1 Cor 6:9-10, Ga 5:19-21, Eph 5:5 and 1 Cor 3:17 or vice versa.

Romans 11:21-23
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.​

Note the Jews were cut off but can be grafted back in only if they they do not remain in unbelief. And the gentiles who were grafted in can only remain if they continue in the goodness of God.

 

[Hmm]

If you wish to contend that no one goes to hell or the lake of fire, then why are they there as beneath the earth?

But I don't contend that. I'm saying that the fire is a purifying rather than a purely punitive one. It's not identical to a real fire that we experience on earth..Look at Moses and the burning bush. The bust wasn't destroyed was it? So, it wasn't a real fire but represents something about God, His purity and how we can't approach it while we are impure.

Them taking the knee as beneath the earth is them accepting His judgment of eternal torment.

But don't forget the second part of the verse which says that we ("they" if you want but it may include you. Funny how we always assume it won't) all will confess that Jesus is Lord and this can only be done by the grace of the Holy Spirit. All shall confess by the Holy Spirit and so all will be saved. What's not to like?

The mark of the beast will be the bio chip soon to be revealed in the coming new world order after the rapture event for when a third of the earth will get burned up ( the entire western hemisphere ) for why resources will be pooled for survival and the world has to take the mark in order to buy & sell to survive

Again, that's QAnon, not scripture.

 

[ozso]

Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context as you have done here.
Paul also wrote,

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: [no wrongdoer] neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesian 5:5 For this ye know, that [no wrongdoer] no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

Twenty two groups of people, no inheritance. No ifs, and, buts, or maybes or saved by death. Do you suppose that Paul forgot what he said in Romans when he wrote 1 Cor 6:9-10, Ga 5:19-21, Eph 5:5 and 1 Cor 3:17 or vice versa.

Romans 11:21-23
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.​

Note the Jews were cut off but can be grafted back in only if they they do not remain in unbelief. And the gentiles who were grafted in can only remain if they continue in the goodness of God.

As pointed out before, none of that applies to the redeemed. And according to UR, all shall eventually be redeemed.

 

[Hark]

But I don't contend that. I'm saying that the fire is a purifying rather than a purely punitive one. It's not identical to a real fire that we experience on earth..Look at Moses and the burning bush. The bust wasn't destroyed was it? So, it wasn't a real fire but represents something about God, His purity and how we can't approach it while we are impure.

And yet there is a fire that is a punitive one.

But don't forget the second part of the verse which says that we ("they" if you want but it may include you. Funny how we always assume it won't) all will confess that Jesus is Lord and this can only be done by the grace of the Holy Spirit. All shall confess by the Holy Spirit and so all will be saved. What's not to like?

No sinner can be saved after they die so that means those in hell & the lake of fire will acknowledge Jesus is Lord without the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Jesus told the story of the rich man and the beggar named Lazarus. The rich man asked Abraham to send someone back to the land of the living to warn his brothers what is to come so that they do not suffer the same eternal fate as he was.

Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Again, that's QAnon, not scripture.

I do not know what QAnon is but I never said it was scripture. I was applying it as looking like what the scripture was testifying about.

 

[Lazarus Short]

And Henry Kissinger was going to be the AntiChrist...

I recall an old website called "bushistheantichrist.com". Then there were those touting one of the sons of Elizabeth II, and of course, the Pope.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context as you have done here.

Instead of dealing with what I wrote, you used your oft-quoted preamble and a few selective verses. Were they out-of-context? Maybe, I don't care to say or to engage with issues of context.

However, I did see what you did in your post #3747 above, where you assemble a selection of (to me) out-of-context Old Testament quotes which seemed to indicate a sheol-level understanding of once you're dead, it's all over forever. Along with that is a New Testament verse having to do with the living. What a mess.

 

[Der Alte]

I noticed, while reading the Law that God gave to Moses, that punishments were proportionate, and that the worst sentence for any sin/crime was simple death. Never was a punishment after death mentioned or hinted at. Many, many years later, Paul wrote, "For he that is dead is freed from sin." Romans 6:7, KJV

Is that a fact. Was the punishment that God administered to the all the people of the earth at the time of Noah, proprotionate. There there are all the people killed in Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plains and let us not forget all the people in the cities of Canaan. In all three cases everyone young, old, men, women, children, infants were killed. Was that all proportionate?