Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Hmm]

The verse below stopped me in my tracks. "not only for ours"?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Clement of Alexandria would have given you a Like for this. He wrote this about this verse:

“And not only for our sins, that is, for those of the faithful, is the Lord the Propitiator does he say, but also for the whole world. He, indeed, saves all; but some He saves converting them by punishments; others, however, who follow voluntarily He saves with dignity of honour; so that every knee should bow to Him, of things in heaven, of things on earth, and things under the earth—that is, angels and men.”

.

 

[ozso]

Perhaps you are entering your own Iron Age. - lol

It all started when I became afraid that Crom would cast me out of Valhalla into the firey furnace after I die, for not knowing the Riddle of Steel.

 

[Hmm]

A comment on the discussion about fire, metals and melting: Not so long ago I did a word study on "fire" and related words. Conclusions - fire in the Bible is of two kinds, natural and Godfire. I could not find any "hellfire." God calls Himself a refiner of men, and there are lots of texts that bear this out. He is fairly explicit when He names metaphoric silver and gold as the desired end products. I see it as a necessary part of the UR position.

Clement of Alexandria talks about a "wise" fire. He believed that here will be a judgement on sinners but that it would have a purpose other than torture for the sake of it which would be to bring sinners to repentance.

In.The Stromata he talks about this judgement, the "lake of fire", in this way:

“We say that the fire purifies not the flesh but sinful souls, not an all-devouring vulgar fire, but the ‘wise fire,’ as we call it, the fire that ‘pierces the soul’ which passes through it.”

In another writing, Clement describes the "fire" like this:

“Fire is conceived of as a beneficent and strong power, destroying what is base, preserving what is good; therefore this fire is called ‘wise’ by the prophets” (Eccl. Proph. XXV, iv).

So his idea of the lake of fire is that its purpose will be beneficial to those cast into it. It's a purifying fire, a "wise" fire, not a destructive fire that we see on earth which he termed a “vulgar fire".

Some final content... In The Instructor, Clement writes this about the idea of punishment on sinners:

“Punishment is, in its operation, like medicine; it dissolves the hard heart, purges away the filth of uncleanness, and reduces the swellings of pride and haughtiness; thus restoring its subject to a sound and healthful state.”

What's not to like?

 

[ozso]

Clement of Alexandria talks about a "wise" fire. He believed that here will be a judgement on sinners but that it would have a purpose other than torture for the sake of it which would be to bring sinners to repentance.

In.The Stromata he talks about this judgement, the "lake of fire", in this way:

“We say that the fire purifies not the flesh but sinful souls, not an all-devouring vulgar fire, but the ‘wise fire,’ as we call it, the fire that ‘pierces the soul’ which passes through it.”

In another writing, Clement describes the "fire" like this:

“Fire is conceived of as a beneficent and strong power, destroying what is base, preserving what is good; therefore this fire is called ‘wise’ by the prophets” (Eccl. Proph. XXV, iv).

So his idea of the lake of fire is that its purpose will be beneficial to those cast into it. It's a purifying fire, a "wise" fire, not a destructive fire that we see on earth which he termed a “vulgar fire".

Some final content... In The Instructor, Clement writes this about the idea of punishment on sinners:

“Punishment is, in its operation, like medicine; it dissolves the hard heart, purges away the filth of uncleanness, and reduces the swellings of pride and haughtiness; thus restoring its subject to a sound and healthful state.”

What's not to like?

What URite website did he post it to?

 

[ozso]

Even when people were burned at the stake, it was done to purify them so they enter heaven.

 

[Saint Steven]

I subscribe to this YouTube channel. I love this video about restoring a Japanese knife. Applicable to the topic, I believe. What a beautiful thing is made from what appears to be junk.

This is a great channel. Lots of other great content. I love the interaction with the cat when Jun is cooking.

I was just thinking again about how applicable this is to the discussion here.

At the beginning of the video, Jun has a discussion with the shop keeper that sold him the "rusty old worthless" knife. The shopkeeper deemed it worthless and thought he had taken Jun for a ride to get him to pay so much for it. But Jun knew what it was worth, far more than he paid for it. And Jun had the means to restore it to its intended beauty and usefulness. ... and usefulness. ... and usefulness. (didn't want anyone to read over that point)

This is very much like our Hell Yes! brothers and sisters. They look at humankind like that "rusty old worthless" knife. That's not what God sees. God sees the beauty and usefulness that will emerge from a total restoration.

Did you see the scene where Jun drops a tomato on the knife blade and it cleanly cuts it in half? Wow.

 

[Hmm]

What URite website did he post it to?

The article's here: Book 3 - Chapter 14: Clement of Alexandria And it's not even on a URite website. It's just a fairly objective look at what he actually said.

 

[ozso]

I was just thinking again about how applicable this is to the discussion here.

At the beginning of the video, Jun has a discussion with the shop keeper that sold him the "rusty old worthless" knife. The shopkeeper deemed it worthless and thought he had taken Jun for a ride to get him to pay so much for it. But Jun knew what it was worth, far more than he paid for it. And Jun had the means to restore it to its intended beauty and usefulness. ... and usefulness. ... and usefulness. (didn't want anyone to read over that point)

This is very much like our Hell Yes! brothers and sisters. They look at humankind like that "rusty old worthless" knife. That's not what God sees. God sees the beauty and usefulness that will emerge from a total restoration.

Did you see the scene where Jun drops a tomato on the knife blade and it cleanly cuts it in half? Wow.

 

[ozso]

The article's here: Book 3 - Chapter 14: Clement of Alexandria And it's not even on a URite website. It's just a fairly objective look at what he actually said.

I was trying to be funny.

 

[Hmm]

I was trying to be funny.

Ah sorry, my bad!

I think all the humour on this thread should be left to the professionals (me) in future to avoid any further misunderstandings with possibly the odd quip allowed from @Saint Steven.

 

[Saint Steven]

Ah sorry, my bad!

I think all the humour on this thread should be left to the professionals (me) in future to avoid any further misunderstandings with possibly the odd quip allowed from @Saint Steven.

Odd quip? (I resemble that remark! - lol)

 

[ozso]

Ah sorry, my bad!

I think all the humour on this thread should be left to the professionals (me) in future to avoid any further misunderstandings with possibly the odd quip allowed from @Saint Steven.

Fraid not bro, I have more funny trophies than you.

 

[Hmm]

Fraid not bro, I have more funny trophies than you.

I'm more of a chilled out entertainer than you. Fact.

 

[Fervent]

How is the word "kolasis" used in Ezekiel in the LXX? Which Hebrew word(s) does it translate?

I don't have time to track down each instance, but the idea that single words are "translated" in that way is not true. Especially of a work like the LXX. For example, in Ezekiel 18:30 the closest analogue seems to be the phrase "κόλασιν ἀδικίας" being used to translate "וְלֹֽא־יִהְיֶ֥ה לָכֶ֛ם לְמִכְשׁ֖וֹל." Ezekiel 14 seems to be something not present in the Bible Hebraica. I don't have time to track down the rest this morning, though.

 

[Der Alte]

Bumping this to the front posted yesterday.

Previous post

Only if and that is a big "if" scripture applies it to other occurrences.
ETA: I took another look at Ezekiel and Lo what do I see? Yet another out-of-context UR proof text that does NOT say what you are desperately trying to make it say.
I do not see literal fire burning dross off Israel.

Ezekiel 22:18-22
18 Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver.
19 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all [house of Israel] become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.
20 As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you.
21 Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof.
22 As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you.​

There is no literal fire here but God says He will gather the house of Israel as a metal smith gathers different metals into a furnace. God does not use literal fire. His "anger and fury" does the burning and melts the house of Israel and leaves them there. vs. 20. God does not burn dross off of the house of Israel. The house of Israel is the dross, they are melted and left there. Not purified and brought back into the fold, they remain where they are melted.
If the house of Israel is melted and left who is left? * The house of Judah. *

 

[Der Alte]

The article's here: Book 3 - Chapter 14: Clement of Alexandria And it's not even on a URite website. It's just a fairly objective look at what he actually said.

Very interesting.
Here is what Clement said about Malachi.

“Punishment is, in its operation, like medicine; it dissolves the hard heart, purges away the filth of uncleanness, and reduces the swellings of pride and haughtiness; thus restoring its subject to a sound and healthful state.”​

And here is what Malachi said,

Malachi 4:1-3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 2:2
2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.
Malachi 3:5
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 3:9
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.​

 

[ozso]

Bumping this to the front posted yesterday.

Only if and that is a big "if" scripture applies it to other occurrences.
ETA: I took another look at Ezekiel and Lo what do I see? Yet another out-of-context UR proof text that does NOT say what you are desperately trying to make it say.
I do not see literal fire burning dross off Israel.

Ezekiel 22:18-22
18 Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver.
19 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all [house of Israel] become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.
20 As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you.
21 Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof.
22 As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you.​

There is no literal fire here but God says He will gather the house of Israel as a metal smith gathers different metals into a furnace. God does not use literal fire. His "anger and fury" does the burning and melts the house of Israel and leaves them there. vs. 20. God does not burn dross off of the house of Israel. The house of Israel is the dross, they are melted and left there. Not purified and brought back into the fold, they remain where they are melted.
If the house of Israel is melted and left who is left? * The house of Judah. *

That's a good question. What's your interpretation of what resulted in real life?

 

[ozso]

Very interesting.
Here is what Clement said about Malachi.

“Punishment is, in its operation, like medicine; it dissolves the hard heart, purges away the filth of uncleanness, and reduces the swellings of pride and haughtiness; thus restoring its subject to a sound and healthful state.”​

And here is what Malachi said,

Malachi 4:1-3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 2:2
2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.
Malachi 3:5
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 3:9
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.​

Do you have any theory as to why Clement said what he said in light of that scripture?

 

[Der Alte]

***

That's a good question. What's your interpretation of the end result in real life?

My post again specifically what are you referring to?

Ezekiel 22:18-22
18 Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver.
19 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all [house of Israel] become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.
20 As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you.
21 Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof.
22 As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you.​

There is no literal fire here but God says He will gather the house of Israel as a metal smith gathers different metals into a furnace. God does not use literal fire. His "anger and fury" does the burning and melts the house of Israel and leaves them there. vs. 20.
God does not burn dross off of the house of Israel. The house of Israel is the dross, they are melted and left there.
Not purified and brought back into the fold, they remain where they are melted.
If the house of Israel is melted and left who is left?
Where does God say that He will resurrect that part of the house of Israel that He melted and left them where they lay and make them His people again?
Let's fast forward to the N.T.
Romans 11:5
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:17-23
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.​

Note it ain't a done deal. God gave conditions to both the Jews and the grafted in gentiles.
The Jews who were broken off will be grafted back in only if they do not remain in unbelief.
If the gentiles do not continue in God's goodness they will be cut off.
In neither case will everyone be saved no matter what.

 

[ozso]

My post again specifically what are you referring to?

Ezekiel 22:18-22
18 Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver.
19 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all [house of Israel] become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.
20 As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you.
21 Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof.
22 As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you.​

There is no literal fire here but God says He will gather the house of Israel as a metal smith gathers different metals into a furnace. God does not use literal fire. His "anger and fury" does the burning and melts the house of Israel and leaves them there. vs. 20.
God does not burn dross off of the house of Israel. The house of Israel is the dross, they are melted and left there.
Not purified and brought back into the fold, they remain where they are melted.
If the house of Israel is melted and left who is left?
Where does God say that He will resurrect that part of the house of Israel that He melted and left them where they lay and make them His people again?
Let's fast forward to the N.T.
Romans 11:5
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:17-23
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.​

Note it ain't a done deal. God gave conditions to both the Jews and the grafted in gentiles.
The Jews who were broken off will be grafted back in only if they do not remain in unbelief.
If the gentiles do not continue in God's goodness they will be cut off.
In neither case will everyone be saved no matter what.

I was just wondering what you thought was a good summation. Which you provided. Thanks.