Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[ozso]

I was going to ask who is Prof DeRose but looked him up instead. He is a universalist prof, at a secular university and he also promulgates the false claim that "aionios" never means eternal. I did a quick count "eternal" occurs more than 70 times in the EOB. Who should I believe? UR Prof DeRose or native Greek speaking scholars.

NIV 1 Cor 15:22 in Adam all die. All who are “in Adam”—i.e., all human beings—suffer death. in Christ all will be made alive. All who are “in Christ”—i.e., who are related to him by faith—will be made alive at the resurrection (cf. Jn 5:25; Ro 5:17–18; 1 Th 4:16–17 and note; Rev 20:6).​

Are you sure that native Greek scholars wrote the English language EOB? Do you know what their names are and where they are from?

Also since you're disqualifying DeRose as one of the "big dogs" as you've put it, who are the big dogs who do qualify? What are their names?

You said that you've read books by the big dogs regarding UR, so I'll ask again what are the names of those big dogs, and what are the titles of the books you've read that have been written by them?

 

[Hmm]

If you agreed with that you would recognize the legitimacy of Der Alte's argument as it resolves the context while excluding a UR reading since the referent of "all" is different as the complete implication is "all in Adam" and "all in Christ" not simply "all men." Your argument depends on the referent being identical, but the broader context of the letter and Paul's writing in general denies that implication. So you must support your reading from the context or else you are simply quoting out of context.




I didn't, I pointed to the fact that people who read the entire text are not going to walk away thinking Paul is teaching UR. It is only if you are trying to read it into it that it appears, by removing the sentence from its context and assigning a single referent.




Resolving the context is required for any interpretation, or else you are simply engaging in eisegesis.

We're going round in circles now so I'll just make the general point that content is required as well as methodology when constructing an argument.

A scientist isn't going to get very far if all she does is write about the scientific model. She also needs actual evidence, something to talk about.

 

[Hmm]

If you want to argue grammar, the Greek grammar doesn't support that claim because while it is absent in the English in the Greek the definite article is present. This is significant because prepositions modify the primary noun, and the addition of the article makes it clear that the primary noun is Adam/Christ. Since the article is present the sentiment being conveyed focuses on the headship of the individual "All those included in Adam die, as all those included in Christ live" is a more appropriate rendering if we are to try to present a rendering that doesn't require context.

I'm not an ancient Greek specialist and I doubt you are, but correct me if I'm wrong. I quoted an authoritative source so I'll leave it at that.

 

[ozso]

If you want to argue grammar, the Greek grammar doesn't support that claim because while it is absent in the English in the Greek the definite article is present. This is significant because prepositions modify the primary noun, and the addition of the article makes it clear that the primary noun is Adam/Christ. Since the article is present the sentiment being conveyed focuses on the headship of the individual "All those included in Adam die, as all those included in Christ live" is a more appropriate rendering if we are to try to present a rendering that doesn't require context.

How can those included in Adam not also be included in Christ? Everyone starting with Adam the son of God (Luke 3:38) was made through Christ (John 1:1-3).

 

[Hmm]

It's interesting to note that Team Hell never says that we should read the Bible through the lens of Christ and if we do we'll see God as Eternal Tormenter. We've seen a lot of mental gymnastics to try explain away clear verses of scripture and the true meaning of aionios but little more than that. The repetition of these few irrational and discredited arguments strongly suggests that ECT is an indoctrinated belief.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Well this thread is certainly moving ahead at a gallop. Just a few rough musings from along the last 20 or so pages, now it's past bedtime...

The paganisation of Christian doctrine for which hell has been a bulwark has entrenched a dualism and an image of God's power as primarily destructive and terrifying. Granted there are many apparent instances in the OT, like the Flood or Elijah taking on the priests of Ba'al, and the Pharasaical tradition clearly latched on to these aspects. But as revelation unfolds, we see that God is not only 'the biggest Ba'al', but rather there is none like Him. His power is absolute, it is transformative, and salvation is His mighty right arm. The pagan element is dashed when the Jews sacrifice Jesus in the high place to their false idols, and in answer he calls for mercy and gives them a Davidic victory cry from Psalm 22 as he overcomes sin and death.

The attentive listener at Calvary who sees the Son may then behold the Father, and understand that God's power is very different to that of the Ba'als. Then he joins us on the Emmaus Road and proceeds to unlock the OT by showing us God's covenant plan is, was and shall be Grace, that all the nations be blessed, for every tongue to confess, for wolf and lamb to recline together, to restore all things, and ultimately, to be all in all. The peace that surpasseth understanding.

And the king of Israel said unto Elisha, when he saw them, My father, shall I smite them? shall I smite them? And he answered, Thou shalt not smite them: wouldest thou smite those whom thou hast taken captive with thy sword and with thy bow? set bread and water before them, that they may eat and drink, and go to their master. (2 Kings 6:21-22)

If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink. For in so doing, you will heap burning coals on his head. (Pro 25:21, Rom 12:20)

 

[Major1]

The expression "eternally condemned" is a rather unusual understanding of the Greek "anathema." It implies that Paul can judge someone to eternal condemnation!!


This is another strange translation. The word "nature" is not in the Greek!!!

There is an accepted teaching in all schools of higher learning called "IMPLIED TRUTH".

That same teaching and understanding applies to the Trinity. The "word" Trinity is not found anywhere in the Bible, however it is "Implied" all through the Bible.

 

[Major1]

It's interesting to note that Team Hell never says that we should read the Bible through the lens of Christ and if we do we'll see God as Eternal Tormenter. We've seen a lot of mental gymnastics to try explain away clear verses of scripture and the true meaning of aionios but little more than that. The repetition of these few irrational and discredited arguments strongly suggests that ECT is an indoctrinated belief.

I disagree 100%.

In fact I encourage the "Hell No" crowd to actually read the words of Jesus Christ as HE SAID in
Luke 16:22-24...................
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

That is either true or it is false.
That is to be accepted or rejected.

 

[Major1]

This is one of the best refutes I've seen in a while. Comprehensive and concise.

Thanks MMXX.

 

[Major1]

I misread that the first time I read it and I said to myself, self I thought we were on the same side. Then I got my head screwed on right.

Great!

Yes.......we are on the same side.......the Bible side!

 

[Fervent]

I'm not an ancient Greek specialist and I doubt you are, but correct me if I'm wrong. I quoted an authoritative source so I'll leave it at that.

Specialist? No, but I know basic grammar and this is a question of basic grammar. "Christ" and "Adam" are prepositional objects, with "all" being the subject. So tthe "all" is modified by the preposition not a universal "all." We can see the same thing in English with a sentence like "In the west everyone has a car." Everyone is a superlative that is modified by the preposition, it still means "everyone" but the preposition designates the class.

 

[Major1]

Your bolded last sentence states that Paul was teaching "hell" even when you admit he never used the word. What if God's wrath, destruction, punishment, condemnation and anger are not what you think? It appears to me that you are supplying things into the text that are not really there. The Lake of Fire fills the bill just as well as "hell," and as I found in my KJV, the LoF is made up of Godfire and meant to refine the base ore of our natures until the silver and gold appear. My essay "Godfire" explains it nicely, and is posted somewhere on this thread, IIRC. It is probably too long for you to read, given prior statements you have made, and it also releases God from your theo-illogical box.

Do you remember one of the very early mentions of Godfire in the Bible? A bush in Midian (possibly still there today) was on fire, but not consumed. It is a window into the nature of God. What's not to like?

Yes it was. That is my understanding of what Gods Wrath means. That is my understanding of "Destruction and punishment's and condemnation". Yours may be different and that is OK with me.

Sheol/Hades/Torments/Hell will be turned into the Lake of Fire after the GWTJ.

We all (I think) understand that death is separation from God. I think we all understand that Hell is where those souls are located.

So then is should be easy then to grasp that in Revelation 20:14-15 .......
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now you may call a bush burning "Godfire". However the Bible calls it a "Burning Bush".

A closer look at what you brought up show us a spiritual lesson.

The Hebrew word translated bush is [ce'nah], and speaks of a thorn bush. It is from a root word meaning to prick. it was a bramble or prickly shrub. We also know that it is a thorn Bush by it being spoken of in the New Testament by the Greek word [ba'tos]

Mark 12:26
"And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?"

Luke 6:44
"For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes." = which also means a thorn bush.

So the question is, why did God choose to appear in this particular type of bush when sending Moses deliver Israel from bondage in Egypt? The logical reason is that God is using this thorn bush as a type of His dwelling with God's people who are redeemed from the curse of the law. Obviously the thorn bush symbolizes something, just as the Garden of Eden does, or the seven golden Candlesticks does, or the four beasts do, or anything else that the Bible says the Lord dwells in the "midst" of. When we see God appearing in the midst of anything, it is for a reason, and that reason is to alert us that God "actually is" that thing.

 

[Major1]

Specialist? No, but I know basic grammar and this is a question of basic grammar. "Christ" and "Adam" are prepositional objects, with "all" being the subject. So tthe "all" is modified by the preposition not a universal "all." We can see the same thing in English with a sentence like "In the west everyone has a car." Everyone is a superlative that is modified by the preposition, it still means "everyone" but the preposition designates the class.

You are correct! Basic grammar.

 

[Fervent]

How can those included in Adam not also be included in Christ? Everyone starting with Adam the son of God (Luke 3:38) was made through Christ (John 1:1-3).

"In Christ" has a special meaning in most of the epistles, referring to those baptised into the faith. This is the one that is likely being used here since Paul begins this teaching with a rhetorical "unless you beleived in vain." It would have to be shown that the referrents are the same class because as phrased the implication is that these are two distinct groups being contrasted based upon their "head."

 

[Major1]

How can those included in Adam not also be included in Christ? Everyone starting with Adam the son of God (Luke 3:38) was made through Christ (John 1:1-3).

NO MMXX. Every "human being" is included in Adam because ALL have sinned!

The answer is all people sin because they are born sinners. Why are all people born sinners? Because Adam sinned. Notice the train of thought here. Adam sinned and at this point sin is enters the world and through sin death also enters the world bringing death to all people because all people sin.

Why is it that you sin? You sin because Adam sinned. You sin because his act made you a sinner. You sin because you are a sinner.
There are TWO kinds of people on the earth.

#1. Lost
#2. The Saved.

Only those who are BORN AGAIN are included in Christ.

The gift that Christ brings in an abundant way covers over this horrible result. Christ comes and brings with Him righteousness. One man sinned, but Jesus covers over the sins of many. Adam brought sin and death, Jesus brings righteousness and life. Adam brought condemnation upon all men, Jesus brings justification.

What glorious news! Sinners can be made righteous. Those bound for Hell can be brought to Eternity with Jesus.

There is here a fountain of grace for you. It is grace enough, an abundance, to cover your sin and shame. Adam made everyone a sinner and Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection are enough to cleanse the worst of sinners. Christ is the cure for the horror of Adam’s sin that has run rampant in your life.

 

[Major1]

Well this thread is certainly moving ahead at a gallop. Just a few rough musings from along the last 20 or so pages, now it's past bedtime...

The paganisation of Christian doctrine for which hell has been a bulwark has entrenched a dualism and an image of God's power as primarily destructive and terrifying. Granted there are many apparent instances in the OT, like the Flood or Elijah taking on the priests of Ba'al, and the Pharasaical tradition clearly latched on to these aspects. But as revelation unfolds, we see that God is not only 'the biggest Ba'al', but rather there is none like Him. His power is absolute, it is transformative, and salvation is His mighty right arm. The pagan element is dashed when the Jews sacrifice Jesus in the high place to their false idols, and in answer he calls for mercy and gives them a Davidic victory cry from Psalm 22 as he overcomes sin and death.

The attentive listener at Calvary who sees the Son may then behold the Father, and understand that God's power is very different to that of the Ba'als. Then he joins us on the Emmaus Road and proceeds to unlock the OT by showing us God's covenant plan is, was and shall be Grace, that all the nations be blessed, for every tongue to confess, for wolf and lamb to recline together, to restore all things, and ultimately, to be all in all. The peace that surpasseth understanding.

And the king of Israel said unto Elisha, when he saw them, My father, shall I smite them? shall I smite them? And he answered, Thou shalt not smite them: wouldest thou smite those whom thou hast taken captive with thy sword and with thy bow? set bread and water before them, that they may eat and drink, and go to their master. (2 Kings 6:21-22)

If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink. For in so doing, you will heap burning coals on his head. (Pro 25:21, Rom 12:20)

You said............
"The paganisation of Christian doctrine for which hell has been a bulwark has entrenched a dualism and an image of God's power as primarily destructive and terrifying. "

Right here is the perfect example of the error of the "Hell No" crowd.

God however said Luke 16:22-24 .....
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

So again we are challenged to accepted YOUR opinion, (or someone Blog) or the word of God!

 

[Hmm]

Specialist? No, but I know basic grammar and this is a question of basic grammar.

How do you know that it's a "question of basic grammar" if you're not a specialist?

As you're now self-admittedly a non-expert in ancient Greek, why are you continuing to insist on your own theories rather than cite authoritive opinion?

 

[Hmm]

The paganisation of Christian doctrine for which hell has been a bulwark has entrenched a dualism and an image of God's power as primarily destructive and terrifying.

Indeed. Team Hell has bought into this paganisation of the Gospel message which is why they present the unswallowable (if that's a word) dichotomy of a supremely loving and endlessly forgiving Father who transforms into an endlessly untiring Torturer at the moment of your death if you happen not to believe in Him at that point in time. No wonder there are are so many traumatised Christians around and the majority of people voting with their feet and staying well away from church.

 

[Der Alte]

Well this thread is certainly moving ahead at a gallop. Just a few rough musings from along the last 20 or so pages, now it's past bedtime...
The paganisation of Christian doctrine for which hell has been a bulwark has entrenched a dualism and an image of God's power as primarily destructive and terrifying. * * *

Please show me from scripture where Jesus specifically condemned the "paganized" Jewish belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment which existed in Israel before and during the time of Jesus.
¢¢…..Concerning only the existence of a Jewish belief in hell not the validity of the historical faith, beliefs and practices of the ancient Jews,
Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been refuted.
…..According to these three sources, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which are translated Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not refute anything in the following post.

[1]1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

[Note: this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA]

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3]pre-Christianity Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

…..Jesus opposed the Jewish leaders many times, He undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jewish teaching was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs in “hell”?

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17). Judith, CHAPTER 16 | USCCB​

 

[Der Alte]

Indeed. Team Hell has bought into this paganisation of the Gospel message which is why they present the unswallowable (if that's a word) dichotomy of a supremely loving and endlessly forgiving Father who transforms into an endlessly untiring Torturer at the moment of your death if you happen not to believe in Him at that point in time. No wonder there are are so many traumatised Christians around and the majority of people voting with their feet and staying well away from church.

Biased, misinformed rubbish. See my post immediately above. Same challenge for you.