Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Der Alte]

Some of the most outspoken and prolific authors/speakers against eternal conscious torment are Eastern/Greek Orthodox theologians.
To start getting a handle on the Eastern/Greek Orthodox view of things compared to the Protestant Baptist view, watch this video:

Logical fallacy appeal to authority. Right all those unidentified authors, speakers etc. are opposed to "eternal punishment" c.f. Matthew 25:46.

 

[ozso]

Logical fallacy appeal to authority. Right all those unidentified authors, speakers etc. are opposed to "eternal punishment" c.f. Matthew 25:46.

No, it's simply to get a better understanding of Eastern/Greek Orthodox views. If that's what you really want, and don't put up a wall because you feel threatened by the aspect of it.

Eastern/Greek Orthodox theologians against the doctrine of eternal conscious torment have been named in this and other UR threads you have been on. A couple I remember are David Bentley Hart and Bradley Jersak.

I see it seems that there's "no winning" with you. You'll either complain about a lack of identifiable authority, or complain about an appeal to identifiable authority.

 

[ozso]

I find the clinging to Mathew 25:31-46 interesting, seeing as how this parable seems to indicate that salvation is guaranteed by simply giving someone a cup of water. Those who seem to cherish verse 46, don't seem to see that aspect of the whole parable. Because the idea that all it takes to be saved is helping someone out, seems to fall more in line with universal redemption.

 

[Hmm]

I thought that eternal conscious torment originated from God.

Luke 16:23.....
"In Hell , where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side."

It is amazing what can be learned on the internet these days.

Yes, it is amazing what can be learnt.

Where in the verse does it say anything about the torment being "eternal? Or is that something you've just added? Serious question.

 

[Hmm]

"Mental Health Counselling for the Fear of Hell – Available in Wolverhampton and Online

The Fear of Hell is Technically Known as Stygiophobia and is mostly associated with religious ideology in which ‘hell’ is seen as a place of punishment for the ‘sins’ a person commits throughout their lives."

It's a very real problem. I came across this personal account that describes how it feels.It speaks for itself.

"I just found out they have a name for my fear that causes me guilt and shame and panic. It’s Stygiophobia or the fear of hell as eternal suffering. In some very severe cases, a person suffering a panic attack triggered from Stygiophobia or Stigiophobia usually when exposed to its triggers such as hell can have one/or all of the following symptoms. I’ve experienced all of these:
fear of losing control
fear of fainting
feelings of dread
fear of dying
fear of harm or illness
guilt, shame, self-blame
Withdrawing from others
Feeling sad or hopeless
Feeling disconnected
Confusion, difficulty concentrating
Anger, irritability, mood swings
anxiety and fear

The symptoms of Stygiophobia are very similar to other specific phobias and will often include:
Avoid making mistakes
Inability to Relax
An Impending Sense of Dread
Problems Concentrating
Being quick tempered
Feelings of dizziness
Prickly sensations like pins and needles
Palpitations
Aches & Pains
Fatigued Muscles
Dry and Sticky mouth
Sweating Excessively
Breathlessness
Migraines and Headaches
Poor Quality of Sleep

Stygiophobia Symptoms are generally automatic and uncontrollable and can seem to take over a person’s thoughts which frequently leads to extreme measures being taken to avoid the fear"

 

[Shrewd Manager]

It's a very real problem. I came across this personal account that describes how it feels.It speaks for itself.

"I just found out they have a name for my fear that causes me guilt and shame and panic. It’s Stygiophobia or the fear of hell as eternal suffering. In some very severe cases, a person suffering a panic attack triggered from Stygiophobia or Stigiophobia usually when exposed to its triggers such as hell can have one/or all of the following symptoms. I’ve experienced all of these:
fear of losing control
fear of fainting
feelings of dread
fear of dying
fear of harm or illness
guilt, shame, self-blame
Withdrawing from others
Feeling sad or hopeless
Feeling disconnected
Confusion, difficulty concentrating
Anger, irritability, mood swings
anxiety and fear

The symptoms of Stygiophobia are very similar to other specific phobias and will often include:
Avoid making mistakes
Inability to Relax
An Impending Sense of Dread
Problems Concentrating
Being quick tempered
Feelings of dizziness
Prickly sensations like pins and needles
Palpitations
Aches & Pains
Fatigued Muscles
Dry and Sticky mouth
Sweating Excessively
Breathlessness
Migraines and Headaches
Poor Quality of Sleep

Stygiophobia Symptoms are generally automatic and uncontrollable and can seem to take over a person’s thoughts which frequently leads to extreme measures being taken to avoid the fear"

I certainly hope you're not suggesting Der Alte, or any other infernalist gracing these fair pages, might be a stygiophrenic.

 

[Hmm]

I certainly hope you're not suggesting Der Alte, or any other infernalist gracing these fair pages, might be a stygiophrenic.

Not at all. They seem perfectly happy about ECT to me but many people are very damaged by it and need a lot of help.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Not at all. They seem perfectly happy about ECT to me. But many people are very damaged by it and need a lot of help.

Without a doubt, and they won't get any comfort from the stygiophiliacs. It's probably in the top 3 reasons for ppl leaving the faith. Another diabolical strawman doing its job.

 

[Hmm]

Without a doubt, and they won't get any comfort from the stygiophiliacs. It's probably in the top 3 reasons for ppl leaving the faith. Another diabolical strawman doing its job.

I agree. I ran an Alpha course once here in the UK - I don't know if you have them down under - and the top reasons people gave for not joining the faith was the existence of suffering and an eternal hell. No wonder church numbers are declining so much. The church as a whole has massively let people down by letting this belief fester within its walls.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I ran an Alpha course once here in the UK - I don't know if you have them down under

Does that one involve role play to practice sharing the gospel? I vaguely recall something at the big Pentecostal Church I was going to before I got shunned for using the "U" word lol. UR is bad for business.

 

[Hmm]

Does that one involve role play to practice sharing the gospel? I vaguely recall something at the big Pentecostal Church I was going to before I got shunned for using the "U" word lol. UR is bad for business.

No role-playing thank goodness! It was a course designed by Holy Trinity Brompton, London to explore the Christian faith in a no pressure way. The group leaders were supposed to have as little input as possible and to just keep the conversation going. In practice that often didn't happen because it's very hard to keep quiet when you feel you have something useful to say, even though it usually isn't.

I had a similar experience about being shunned. I remember one woman walking out when a co-leader told her that her non-Christian grandad who had died recently would definitely be in hell. I want after her, persuaded her back and told the group that my co-leader did not speak for all Christians and that we can't say that. I didn't know about universalism at the time so that was the best I could do. Anyway she reported me to the church mafioso and at the end of the following session the minister came in and told the group, and me - I hadn't been informed - that this would be my last time with them. There was a big protest and I was allowed back in but I had to undergo an inquisition where my defence was that everything I had said about hell was what I had learned from Rowan Williams, the former Archbishop of Canterbury and so head of the Anglican church I was in! It was honestly like being in the school playground.

 

[Saint Steven]

"Mental Health Counselling for the Fear of Hell – Available in Wolverhampton and Online

The Fear of Hell is Technically Known as Stygiophobia and is mostly associated with religious ideology in which ‘hell’ is seen as a place of punishment for the ‘sins’ a person commits throughout their lives."

https://www.tranceformpsychology.com/mental-health-problems/phobias/fear-of-hell-psychotherapy.html

Wow. This might deserve a topic.
Damnationism/Infernalism as a mental illness. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

Does that one involve role play to practice sharing the gospel? I vaguely recall something at the big Pentecostal Church I was going to before I got shunned for using the "U" word lol. UR is bad for business.

I wonder of that was EE ? (Evangelism Explosion)

 

[Shrewd Manager]

a course designed by Holy Trinity Brompton, London to explore the Christian faith in a no pressure way.

ECT would be a bit of an elephant in the room, a fly in the ointment to the low-pressure approach.

Rowan Williams, the former Archbishop of Canterbury and so head of the Anglican church

The old ladies at the Anglican Church up the road didn't much like my remarks that Rowan Williams is a high-ranking druid. Never even got as far as UR over there! Walked out when they invited in Covid, the spirit of lies.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Wow. This might deserve a topic.
Damnationism/Infernalism as a mental illness. - lol

The questions are whether infernalism is stygiolatry or stygiophilia and causes mental illness in the form of stygiophobia and stygiophrenia. And can it be cured with spiritual surgery - a stygioectomy?

It's a terrible condition, inflicted and exacerbated by the hypocrisy of religious teachers:

For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. (Mt 23:4)

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. (Mt 23:13)

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I wonder of that was EE ? (Evangelism Explosion)

All these courses sound like some kind of 'boxercise' - packaged to deliver an energy hit in a fun way that's good for you!

 

[Major1]

Yes, it is amazing what can be learnt.

Where in the verse does it say anything about the torment being "eternal? Or is that something you've just added? Serious question.

Well.....the entirety of Scripture has always got to be considered. That comes under the heading of CONTEXT.

Matthew 25:46 .....
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Revelation 14:11 ...
"And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

In Daniel 12:2, Daniel speaks of a resurrection of some to everlasting life and some to “everlasting abhorrence.” Interestingly, the word translated as “abhorrence” is found in Scripture only here and in Isaiah 66:24 where either the corpses or the men (depending on where one locates the antecedent of “they”) shall be an abhorrence to all flesh. The concept of everlasting abhorrence in Daniel is contrasted to everlasting life. What Daniel says is they are resurrected to everlasting abhorrence, which is not the language of annihilation or of ultimate universal salvation.

 

[Major1]

That's what we were all brainwashed to believe. But is it true?

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

The person who talks most about hell in Scripture is none other than Jesus himself. Indeed, except for James 3:6, the only person even to use the word hell in scripture is Jesus.

• “Whoever shall say, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the hell of fire” (Matt. 5:22).
• “It is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell” (Matt. 5:29, 30).
• “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matt. 10:28).
• “It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the hell of fire” (Matt. 18:9).

 

[Major1]

Don't you know? To the "Hell no!" crowd "eternal" does not mean "eternal" it means "age during" or something silly like that and "punishment" doesn't mean "punishment" it means "correction."
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church for 2000+ years, who better that the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB, Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible know the correct translation of the Greek NT?

EOB Matt 25:46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mt 25:45–46). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.​

But the Hell no! crowd won't have it because their "leaders,""teachers,""pastors" etc. have convinced them that they are the final authority on the NT.

Yes I do!

They simply can not accept the Word of God.

 

[Der Alte]

This post was previously posted this thread. Time to bring it to the fore.
…..The sources quoted below document the existence of the beliefs and practices of Jews concerning Hell. According to these sources, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which are translated Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not alter or disprove anything in this following post.

[1] Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]​

[Note: this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
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[2] Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
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[3] Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​