Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Lazarus Short]

What if it means life in the age to come? And unless you believe in annihilation, then those who don't believe won't parish. The ECT scenario describes them as very much alive, hence the C in ECT.

You have hit upon a big problem with the ECT theory - to be in "hell," you must be dead, but to suffer ECT, you must be alive/conscious...but you're dead. Wait, what? I wonder what Schrodinger would say about that?

 

[Hmm]

You have hit upon a big problem with the ECT theory - to be in "hell," you must be dead, but to suffer ECT, you must be alive/conscious...but you're dead. Wait, what? I wonder what Schrodinger would say about that?

He would have to have a Schrödinger's hellcat as well

 

[Lazarus Short]

He would have to have a Schrödinger's hellcat as well

I suppose the experiment would need to be repeated nine times for a valid result...

 

[Andrewn]

You don't agree but that's our difference in a nutshell and we're not going to agree until the next aionios.

You mean "until the next aeon" .

Jesus never used the words "aionios" or "aion". Jesus spoke in Aramaic, not Greek. That's one of the first things that needs to be established.

Yes, and the Aramaic word for "aionios" is "l'olam" which means "of the aeon" or "to the aeon."

 

[Hmm]

You mean "until the next aeon" .

Yes, I was wondering who would be the first to spot that deliberate error! /s

 

[ozso]

Yes, and the Aramaic word for "aionios" is "l'olam" which means "of the aeon."

As so, that had slipped my mind.

"To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever*. But you, LORD my God, brought my life up from the pit." Jonah 2:6

*l'olam

I learned that a long time ago from the crafty hell no folk.

 

[Saint Steven]

I learned that a long time ago from the crafty hell no folk.

Crafty? - lol
You have to be when you're working with a biased translation.

We're fortunate to have the little that slipped through the cracks.
Makes me wonder if there were those who looked the other way and ONLY did what they were ordered to do, so as to maintain as much integrity in the text that they could.

 

[Der Alte]

Let's try a different tact then. Show me where I've gone Wrong!!!! in this, by highlighting in red again if you like, even though red pens are no longer allowed in schools, at least in England.
Beliefs based in fear, guilt, and condemnation are wrong. We know this from

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love.​

​

Please show me where this proves that "kolasis" means "correction?" This is the only verse we can use to determine the meaning of "kolasis" in Matt 25:46. This long convoluted explanation does not nothing to establish the meaning of the words in Matt 25:46

ECT is rooted in fear and so it's a false belief.

"Eternal punishment" is rooted in scripture NOT fear.

It's ironic that the people who believe in an eternal hell are the most afraid of it. It's because even though they may think they are probably saved, they can't know for certain, and because ECT is such a terrible fate even the slightest uncertainty is enough to lead to paralysing fear. The only way out is to stop believing in it, but this is very hard to do because any thought that there may not be an eternal hell automatically generates the fear that you're going to end up in it. It's common in testimonies that people take counselling before they are able to rid themselves of their hell anxiety.
So where have I gone Wrong!!!! this time?

Where have you gone wrong? You have provided no, zero, none evidence that "kolasis" means correction. OTOH I have provided scriptural evidence that the one who has kolasis is NOT corrected.
Now you are presuming to be a psychologist or psychiatrist diagnosing millions of Christians as living in fear, unsure of their salvation etc. etc. Do you have any evidence that anyone had to "take counselling before they are able to rid themselves of their hell anxiety." Perhaps you should confine your arguments to only what can be supported with credible, verifiable, grammatical, lexical etc. evidence.

 

[ozso]

​

Please show me where this proves that "kolasis" means "correction?" This is the only verse we can use to determine the meaning of "kolasis" in Matt 25:46. This long convoluted explanation does not nothing to establish the meaning of the words in Matt 25:46

"Eternal punishment" is rooted in scripture NOT fear.

Where have you gone wrong? You have provided no, zero, none evidence that "kolasis" means correction. OTOH I have provided scriptural evidence that the one who has kolasis is NOT corrected.
Now you are presuming to be a psychologist or psychiatrist diagnosing millions of Christians as living in fear, unsure of their salvation etc. etc. Do you have any evidence that anyone had to "take counselling before they are able to rid themselves of their hell anxiety." Perhaps you should confine your arguments to only what can be supported with credible, verifiable, grammatical, lexical etc. evidence.

What Aramaic word was translated into "kolasis"?

 

[Hmm]

Please show me where this proves that "kolasis" means "correction?"

I deliberately didn't mention kolasis or aionios because I thought you might like to talk about something else. Evidently not.

Now you are presuming to be a psychologist or psychiatrist diagnosing millions of Christians as living in fear, unsure of their salvation etc. etc. Do you have any evidence that anyone had to "take counselling before they are able to rid themselves of their hell anxiety." Perhaps you should confine your arguments to only what can be supported with credible, verifiable, grammatical, lexical etc. evidence.

Do you really think you have to be a certified psychologist or psychiatrist to know that a belief in eternal conscious torment is going to induce fear in its adherents? That's precisely why it was invented!

The evidence is in the form of personal testimony. This is credible evidence even though it is not verifiable (philosophically speaking no personal experience is, not even your own because we can never reproduce an experience etc), gramaticool or lexycull. I think I have posted one or two testimonies on this thread if you fancy a treasure hunt.

 

[Der Alte]

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[Der Alte]

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[Der Alte]

I deliberately didn't mention kolasis or aionios because I thought you might like to talk about something else. Evidently not.
Do you really think you have to be a certified psychologist or psychiatrist to know that a belief in eternal conscious torment is going to induce fear in its adherents? That's precisely why it was invented!
The evidence is in the form of personal testimony. This is credible evidence even though it is not verifiable (philosophically speaking no personal experience is, not even your own because we can never reproduce an experience etc), gramaticool or lexycull. I think I have posted one or two testimonies on this thread if you fancy a treasure hunt.

There is a big difference between speculating that certain things might happen, it is another to makes definitive statements. e.g.

It's ironic that the people who believe in an eternal hell are the most afraid of it. It's because even though they may think they are probably saved, they can't know for certain, and because ECT is such a terrible fate even the slightest uncertainty is enough to lead to paralysing fear. The only way out is to stop believing in it, but this is very hard to do because any thought that there may not be an eternal hell automatically generates the fear that you're going to end up in it. It's common in testimonies that people take counselling before they are able to rid themselves of their hell anxiety.​

 

[Major1]

I deliberately didn't mention kolasis or aionios because I thought you might like to talk about something else. Evidently not.



Do you really think you have to be a certified psychologist or psychiatrist to know that a belief in eternal conscious torment is going to induce fear in its adherents? That's precisely why it was invented!

The evidence is in the form of personal testimony. This is credible evidence even though it is not verifiable (philosophically speaking no personal experience is, not even your own because we can never reproduce an experience etc), gramaticool or lexycull. I think I have posted one or two testimonies on this thread if you fancy a treasure hunt.

I thought that eternal conscious torment originated from God.

Luke 16:23.....
"In Hell , where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side."

It is amazing what can be learned on the internet these days.

 

[Der Alte]

I thought that eternal conscious torment originated from God.
Luke 16:23.....
"In Hell , where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side."
It is amazing what can be learned on the internet these days.

Don't you know? To the "Hell no!" crowd "eternal" does not mean "eternal" it means "age during" or something silly like that and "punishment" doesn't mean "punishment" it means "correction."
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church for 2000+ years, who better that the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB, Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible know the correct translation of the Greek NT?

EOB Matt 25:46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mt 25:45–46). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.​

But the Hell no! crowd won't have it because their "leaders,""teachers,""pastors" etc. have convinced them that they are the final authority on the NT.

 

[Saint Steven]

I thought that eternal conscious torment originated from God.

That's what we were all brainwashed to believe. But is it true?

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[ozso]

I deliberately didn't mention kolasis or aionios because I thought you might like to talk about something else. Evidently not.



Do you really think you have to be a certified psychologist or psychiatrist to know that a belief in eternal conscious torment is going to induce fear in its adherents? That's precisely why it was invented!

The evidence is in the form of personal testimony. This is credible evidence even though it is not verifiable (philosophically speaking no personal experience is, not even your own because we can never reproduce an experience etc), gramaticool or lexycull. I think I have posted one or two testimonies on this thread if you fancy a treasure hunt.

"Mental Health Counselling for the Fear of Hell – Available in Wolverhampton and Online

The Fear of Hell is Technically Known as Stygiophobia and is mostly associated with religious ideology in which ‘hell’ is seen as a place of punishment for the ‘sins’ a person commits throughout their lives."

https://www.tranceformpsychology.com/mental-health-problems/phobias/fear-of-hell-psychotherapy.html

 

[ozso]

There is a big difference between speculating that certain things might happen, it is another to makes definitive statements. e.g.
It's ironic that the people who believe in an eternal hell are the most afraid of it. It's because even though they may think they are probably saved, they can't know for certain, and because ECT is such a terrible fate even the slightest uncertainty is enough to lead to paralysing fear. The only way out is to stop believing in it, but this is very hard to do because any thought that there may not be an eternal hell automatically generates the fear that you're going to end up in it. It's common in testimonies that people take counselling before they are able to rid themselves of their hell anxiety.

I'm sure if you do some research into it, you'll find that what Hmm wrote is quite accurate.

 

[Der Alte]

That's what we were all brainwashed to believe. But is it true?
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

The usual misapplication of of 1 Cor 15:22. All mankind is "in Adam" because all mankind are literal descendants of Adam but all mankind are not "in Christ" that takes a conscious action for every person.
Here is what Paul said about being "in Christ."

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:​

NOT “in Christ”NOT ”in Him” NOT gathered together in one.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:​

NOT “in Christ” NO redemption.

Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

“Walk after the flesh” NOT “in Christ” and there IS condemnation.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.​

NOT “in Christ” NOT free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.​

NOT “in Christ” NOT a member of the body.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:​

NOT “in Christ” NO sanctification, NO redemption.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

Not “in Christ” old things NOT passed away, old things NOT made new.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.​

NOT “in Christ” NOT children of God.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.​

NOT “now in Christ Jesus” NOT ”made nigh” still far off.

2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,​

NOT “in Christ” NO promise of life.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.​

NOT “in Christ” NO salvation.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.​

NOT “in Christ” NO salvation.

 

[ozso]

Don't you know? To the "Hell no!" crowd "eternal" does not mean "eternal" it means "age during" or something silly like that and "punishment" doesn't mean "punishment" it means "correction."
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church for 2000+ years, who better that the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB, Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible know the correct translation of the Greek NT?

EOB Matt 25:46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mt 25:45–46). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.​

But the Hell no! crowd won't have it because their "leaders,""teachers,""pastors" etc. have convinced them that they are the final authority on the NT.

Some of the most outspoken and prolific authors/speakers against eternal conscious torment are Eastern/Greek Orthodox theologians.

To start getting a better handle on the Eastern/Greek Orthodox view of things compared to the Protestant Baptist view, watch this video: