Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Hmm]

Doesn't Christian universalism discount the Bible passages such as Matthew 25:31-46, especially verse 46. It's Jesus' figurative description of the final judgment, and the last verse is clear about the "goats'" eternal destination. That belief seems to avoid any understanding or acceptance of God's divine quality of justice, which makes his grace all the more amazing! Recently, I have read the OT prophets; those books and Romans 1:18-25 make clear that all of us are under God's just verdict of "guilty" until God frees us through Jesus' death to receive his pronouncement of "not guilty."

I agree with you that Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." does seem to be saying that the goats' eternal destination is hell. The argument is if the eternal life is literally unending life, then eternal punishment must also be unending torment, ECT. Christian universalism doesn't discount this verse, it just sees a fallacy in this reasoning.

The word "aionios" is the original Greek for both instances of "eternal" in this verse. Let's avoid going into the argument Der Alte gave in his response to you that “aionios” means means “eternal" rather than simply “age enduring” in this context, and assume for the sake of argument that it does mean "eternal" or "everlasting".
“Aionios” is clearly an adjective so it's meaning is going to vary depending upon which noun it qualifies. Let's look at “everlasting.” The basic meaning is indeed everlasting so e.g. an everlasting struggle would indeed be a struggle without end. But an everlasting change, or an everlasting correction, or an everlasting transformation does not mean a process without end, one that never gets completed. Rather it means a process of limited time duration, or even instantaneous event, that ends in an irreversible state. So argument saying that the goats' punishment has to be everlasting because the same word, aionios, was used for the sheep is a fallacious one. It depends on what it is referring to. In the verse it's "punishment" but this is a simple mistranlation of the Greek word "kolasis" which means something more like "remedial punishment". This is something that is corrective and as mentioned about an everlasting correction makes no sense. That would be the universalist view anyway. Whether it right or wrong (and I believe it's right) certainly nothing in the context of Matthew 25 excludes such an interpretation.

But just to say something more about "aionios", it also has a special religious meaning in the New Testament. I'll disagree with Der Alte now and say that it never refers to a temporal process of unending duration, or that's my understanding anyway - I'm not an Ancient Greek linguist expert so I can only go off people who are. On a few occasions such as when Paul spoke of a "mystery that was kept secret for long ages (chronios aioniois) but is now disclosed" (Rom. 16:25-26) the adjective does imply a lengthy period of time. But it could not possibly mean ‘eternal’ or ‘everlasting’ because the secret is "now disclosed".

On other occasions, such as when it is applied to the judgements, gifts, and actions of God, these are eternal in the sense that their source lies in the eternal character and purpose God. One common function of an adjective, after all, is to refer back to the causal source of some action or condition. E.g a selfish act is one that springs from selfish motives. Similarly, when Jude spoke about the fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah as an eternal fire, he was not talking about how long it would burn at all, otherwise it would still be burning today, he was instead saying that the fire represented God’s judgement upon the two cities. So the fire was eternal because it was God’s judgement upon these cities - it expressed God’s eternal character and eternal purpose in a special way.

Fire is often used to express God’s eternal love for us in a special, though severe, way. As in Hebrews 12:29 "for indeed our God is a consuming fire" the God is a fire that will eventually consume all that is false within us. In no other way could God perfect all of us and express his eternal love for all of us. And similarly for eternal punishment: like any of God’s eternal actions in time, it is eternal because it has its source in the eternal God himself.

 

[Cormack]

It's the ultimate ultimatum.

I like that, very snappy.

 

[ozso]

I like that, very snappy.

Thanks. Hereby known as The Ultimate Ultimatum©®™ Maybe I'll end up writing a book with that as the title.

Edit: rats someone beat me to it https://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Ultimatum-Destination-Depends-Choice/dp/1475972709

 

[Saint Steven]

Doesn't Christian universalism discount the Bible passages such as Matthew 25:31-46, especially verse 46. It's Jesus' figurative description of the final judgment, and the last verse is clear about the "goats'" eternal destination. That belief seems to avoid any understanding or acceptance of God's divine quality of justice, which makes his grace all the more amazing! Recently, I have read the OT prophets; those books and Romans 1:18-25 make clear that all of us are under God's just verdict of "guilty" until God frees us through Jesus' death to receive his pronouncement of "not guilty."

There is a translation issue there in Matthew 25:46 that needs to be addressed.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

 

[Der Alte]

I agree with you that Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." does seem to be saying that the goats' eternal destination is hell. The argument is if the eternal life is literally unending life, then eternal punishment must also be unending torment, ECT. Christian universalism doesn't discount this verse, it just sees a fallacy in this reasoning.
he word "aionios" is the original Greek for both instances of "eternal" in this verse. Let's avoid going into the argument Der Alte gave in his response to you that “aionios” means means “eternal" rather than simply “age enduring” in this context, and assume for the sake of argument that it does mean "eternal" or "everlasting".
“Aionios” is clearly an adjective so it's meaning is going to vary depending upon which noun it qualifies. Let's look at “everlasting.” The basic meaning is indeed everlasting so e.g. an everlasting struggle would indeed be a struggle without end. But an everlasting change, or an everlasting correction, or an everlasting transformation does not mean a process without end, one that never gets completed. Rather it means a process of limited time duration, or even instantaneous event, that ends in an irreversible state. So argument saying that the goats' punishment has to be everlasting because the same word, aionios, was used for the sheep is a fallacious one. It depends on what it is referring to. In the verse it's "punishment" but this is a simple mistranlation of the Greek word "kolasis" which means something more like "remedial punishment". This is something that is corrective and as mentioned about an everlasting correction makes no sense. That would be the universalist view anyway. Whether it right or wrong (and I believe it's right) certainly nothing in the context of Matthew 25 excludes such an interpretation.
But just to say something more about "aionios", it also has a special religious meaning in the New Testament. I'll disagree with Der Alte now and say that it never refers to a temporal process of unending duration, or that's my understanding anyway - I'm not an Ancient Greek linguist expert so I can only go off people who are. On a few occasions such as when Paul spoke of a "mystery that was kept secret for long ages (chronios aioniois) but is now disclosed" (Rom. 16:25-26) the adjective does imply a lengthy period of time. But it could not possibly mean ‘eternal’ or ‘everlasting’ because the secret is "now disclosed".
On other occasions, such as when it is applied to the judgements, gifts, and actions of God, these are eternal in the sense that their source lies in the eternal character and purpose God. One common function of an adjective, after all, is to refer back to the causal source of some action or condition. E.g a selfish act is one that springs from selfish motives. Similarly, when Jude spoke about the fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah as an eternal fire, he was not talking about how long it would burn at all, otherwise it would still be burning today, he was instead saying that the fire represented God’s judgement upon the two cities. So the fire was eternal because it was God’s judgement upon these cities - it expressed God’s eternal character and eternal purpose in a special way.
Fire is often used to express God’s eternal love for us in a special, though severe, way. As in Hebrews 12:29 "for indeed our God is a consuming fire" the God is a fire that will eventually consume all that is false within us. In no other way could God perfect all of us and express his eternal love for all of us. And similarly for eternal punishment: like any of God’s eternal actions in time, it is eternal because it has its source in the eternal God himself.

No, zero, none grammatical, lexical, historical etc. evidence for any of the stated arguments.

 

[Hmm]

none grammatical

Is that grammatical?

 

[Der Alte]

Is that grammatical?

Irrelevant to the topic. Whether the statement is or is not grammatical does not refute my point which I am certain you understood.

 

[Hmm]

Irrelevant to the topic. Whether the statement is or is not grammatical does not refute my point which I am certain you understood.

I didn't really understand your point, no. Are you saying that you can't discuss ideas without providing evidence for everything you say? Or what? You seem to say it an awful lot so we may as well clarify it.

 

[Der Alte]

* * *

<Steven>There is a translation issue there in Matthew 25:46 that needs to be addressed.
Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.
All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.​

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.
Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21
Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”
Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

,</Steve>
When one presumes to correct Greece translations in the NT they should at least have a working knowledge of Greek.
In all of the verses quoted above the word that occurs is NOT G166 "aionios" but G165 "aion" Even the graphic clearly shows it refers to G165 "aion."
While "aionios" and "aion" sometimes refer to things which are not or cannot be "eternal" they are never defined/described as something other than eternal.
Jesus used the word "aionios" 28 times. He never used "aionios" to refer to something which was not, could not be eternal. Here are two verses out of 10 where Jesus literally defined/described "aionios" as "eternal.'
John 3:15

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period or age, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.​

 

[Der Alte]

I didn't really understand your point, no. Are you saying that you can't discuss ideas without providing evidence for everything you say? Or what? You seem to say it an awful lot so we may as well clarify it.

If anyone makes a grammatical argument e.g. this quote from your post.

“Aionios” is clearly an adjective so it's meaning is going to vary depending upon which noun it qualifies. Let's look at “everlasting.” The basic meaning is indeed everlasting so e.g. an everlasting struggle would indeed be a struggle without end. But an everlasting change, or an everlasting correction, or an everlasting transformation does not mean a process without end, one that never gets completed."​

One must support it from an accredited Greek grammar otherwise it is unsupported opinion. What I have highlighted in red is false, there is no such grammatical rule.
The same holds true for lexical issues, i.e. the meaning of words. Lots of folks like to rely on Strong's but Strong's is not a lexicon. It is a concordance which only shows where words occur in the Bible and how they are translated in the KJV. It has been found to contain about 15,000 errors or omissions.

 

[Hmm]

I said:

“Aionios” is clearly an adjective so it's meaning is going to vary depending upon which noun it qualifies.

And you said:

One must support it from an accredited Greek grammar otherwise it is unsupported opinion. What I have highlighted in red is false, there is no such grammatical rule.

Adjectives are qualified by their nouns, e.g. the difference between a heavy sigh like the one I'm giving now and a heavy suitcase. Are you saying that this is not the case in ancient Greek or are you saying that aionios is not an adjective?

You made the same comment about this:

an everlasting change, or an everlasting correction, or an everlasting transformation does not mean a process without end, one that never gets completed."

But this is about logic, not grammar. A change, correction or punishment cannot take forever because these are finite process. E.g. if a teacher gave a pupil an everlasting detention it wouldn't be very corrective or educational would it?

Perhaps you could say something about the ideas themselves? All this does is tell me that you have no valid arguments against the idea of universal restoration.

 

[Der Alte]

I said:
And you said:
Adjectives are qualified by their nouns, e.g. the difference between a heavy sigh like the one I'm giving now and a heavy suitcase. Are you saying that this is not the case in ancient Greek or are you saying that aionios is not an adjective?

Different only if the meaning is different. Does "heavy" modifying "sigh" mean exactly the same thing as "heavy" modifying "suitcase?" A "heavy sigh" weighs exactly the same as a sigh that is not "heavy."

You made the same comment about this:
an everlasting change, or an everlasting correction, or an everlasting transformation does not mean a process without end, one that never gets completed."

Does "everlasting change" or "everlasting correction" occur anywhere in the Bible? No it does not. So your examples are irrelevant.
"Kolasis" occurs twice in the NT. The other occurrence is 1 Jn 4;18

1 John 4:18
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.[kolasis] He that feareth is not made perfect in love.​

Note, the one who has "kolasis" is not made perfect i.e. is not corrected.

But this is about logic, not grammar. A change, correction or punishment cannot take forever because these are finite process. E.g. if a teacher gave a pupil an everlasting detention it wouldn't be very corrective or educational would it?

Perhaps you could say something about the ideas themselves? All this does is tell me that you have no valid arguments against the idea of universal restoration.

Your examples are only valid if they are similar in every respect as the verses in question. They are not. First a teacher can't give an everlasting anything. The word "change" does not occur in the text. The word "correction" does not occur in the text. If God can give "eternal life" He can certainly give "eternal punishment." See 1 Jn 4:18.

 

[Hmm]

Different only if the meaning is different. Does "heavy" modifying "sigh" mean exactly the same thing as "heavy" modifying "suitcase?" A "heavy sigh" weighs exactly the same as a sigh that is not "heavy."

Does "everlasting change" or "everlasting correction" occur anywhere in the Bible? No it does not. So your examples are irrelevant.
"Kolasis" occurs twice in the NT. The other occurrence is 1 Jn 4;18

1 John 4:18
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.[kolasis] He that feareth is not made perfect in love.​

Note, the one who has "kolasis" is not made perfect i.e. is not corrected.

Your examples are only valid if they are similar in every respect as the verses in question. They are not. First a teacher can't give an everlasting anything. The word "change" does not occur in the text. The word "correction" does not occur in the text. If God can give "eternal life" He can certainly give "eternal punishment." See 1 Jn 4:18.

This quoting of quotes is becoming too complicated so let's simplify. Jesus said "aionios kolasis" which means "corrective punishment (kolasis) for an age/era/an unspecified but limited duration of time (aionios). In most English Bibles, but not all, this is mistranslated as "eternal punishment". You don't agree but that's our difference in a nutshell and we're not going to agree until the next aionios.

 

[ozso]

Jesus used the word "aionios" 28 times.

Wrong. Jesus never used the words "aionios" or "aion". Jesus spoke in Aramaic, not Greek. That's one of the first things that needs to be established. Jesus wasn't speaking in Greek, nor did he ever write anything down. So we can only go so far in having certainty of every little nuance of each word Jesus spoke. The same goes for "Kolasis". Those are words found in the Greek manuscripts. They are not words used by Jesus himself. One might as well argue over what words Abraham Lincoln used based on a Koine Greek version of the Emancipation Proclamation.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Wrong. Jesus never used the words "aionios" or "aion". Jesus spoke in Aramaic, not Greek. That's one of the first things that needs to be established. Jesus wasn't speaking in Greek, nor did he ever write anything down. So we can only go so far in having certainty of every little nuance of each word Jesus spoke. The same goes for "Kolasis". Those are words found in the Greek manuscripts. They are not words used by Jesus himself. One might as well argue over what words Abraham Lincoln used based on a Koine Greek version of the Emancipation Proclamation.

... Lol! You were doing great, all up until the added analogy with Lincoln.

Try again!

 

[Der Alte]

This quoting of quotes is becoming too complicated so let's simplify. Jesus said "aionios kolasis" which means "corrective punishment (kolasis) for an age/era/an unspecified but limited duration of time (aionios). In most English Bibles, but not all, this is mistranslated as "eternal punishment". You don't agree but that's our difference in a nutshell and we're not going to agree until the next aionios.

Wrong !!!! "kolasis" does NOT mean corrective anything, it means punishment, plain and simple. You simply ignore anything I say that you don't like and proceed on your merry way.
The word Kolasis occurs one other time in the N.T. Please read this carefully.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.[kolasis] He that feareth is not made perfect in love.​

The one who fears, has torment and is NOT made perfect, i.e. not corrected.
You claimed that Winer contradicted what I said.

In Tit. i. 13, epifaneia tes doxes tou megalou theou kai soteros Iesous, considerations derived from Paul’s system of doctrine lead me to believe that soteros is not a second predicate, coordinate with theos,—Christ being first called o megas Theos and then Soter. The article is omitted before soteros, because this word is defined by the genitive emon and because the apposition precedes the proper name.: of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ . Similarly in 2 Pet. i. 1, where there is not even a pronoun with soteros.
A Greek Grammar of the New Testament George Benedict Winer p.162
A Greek Grammar of the New Testament : Georg Benedikt Winer , Moses Stuart, Edward Robinson : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

2 Peter 1:1
1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:​

If Jesus is not God and savior 2 Pt 1:1 He is not Lord and savior 2 Pt 1:11, as does Titus 1:13. Both vss. have the same grammatical structure.

2 Peter 1:11
11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.​

 

[Der Alte]

Wrong. Jesus never used the words "aionios" or "aion". Jesus spoke in Aramaic, not Greek. * * *

Prove it! Show me some credible, verifiable, historical evidence that any part of the NT was written in Aramaic. I don't mean Andy Anonymous' blog.
The argument is moot no matter what word He used. The word translated "eternal" is defined by "shall not perish." If it was Aramaic the translators chose the closest Greek word.

 

[ozso]

Prove it! Show me some credible, verifiable, historical evidence that any part of the NT was written in Aramaic. I don't mean Andy Anonymous' blog.
The argument is moot no matter what word He used. The word translated "eternal" is defined by "shall not perish." If it was Aramaic the translators chose the closest Greek word.

There is no if. Jesus spoke in Aramaic. So one can not say Jesus said "aionios". One can only say the that Koine Greek manuscript says "aionios". While you don't think it matters. I think it's something to take into consideration.

 

[ozso]

<Steven>There is a translation issue there in Matthew 25:46 that needs to be addressed.
Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.
All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.
Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.
Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21
Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”
Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)
,</Steve>
When one presumes to correct Greece translations in the NT they should at least have a working knowledge of Greek.
In all of the verses quoted above the word that occurs is NOT G166 "aionios" but G165 "aion" Even the graphic clearly shows it refers to G165 "aion."
While "aionios" and "aion" sometimes refer to things which are not or cannot be "eternal" they are never defined/described as something other than eternal.
Jesus used the word "aionios" 28 times. He never used "aionios" to refer to something which was not, could not be eternal. Here are two verses out of 10 where Jesus literally defined/described "aionios" as "eternal.'
John 3:15

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period or age, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

What if it means life in the age to come? And unless you believe in annihilation, then those who don't believe won't parish. The ECT scenario describes them as very much alive, hence the C in ECT.

 

[Hmm]

Wrong !!!!

Let's try a different tact then. Show me where I've gone Wrong!!!! in this, by highlighting in red again if you like, even though red pens are no longer allowed in schools, at least in England.

Beliefs based in fear, guilt, and condemnation are wrong. We know this from 1 John 4:18

There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love.​

ECT is rooted in fear and so it's a false belief.

It's ironic that the people who believe in an eternal hell are the most afraid of it. It's because even though they may think they are probably saved, they can't know for certain, and because ECT is such a terrible fate even the slightest uncertainty is enough to lead to paralysing fear. The only way out is to stop believing in it, but this is very hard to do because any thought that there may not be an eternal hell automatically generates the fear that you're going to end up in it. It's common in testimonies that people take counselling before they are able to rid themselves of their hell anxiety.

So where have I gone Wrong!!!! this time?