Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[SkyWriting]

What is it about universal redemption that annoys so many Christians? Shouldn’t we be happy that God’s love and mercy are wider, higher, deeper, and broader than we could ever imagine? We all sin at times so shouldn't we welcome the thought that God is not going to annihilate or eternally torment us if we don't “accept,” “trust,” “repent,” “believe,” well enough to appropriate the grace of God?

The torment and burning is not from any outside source.
That's why it hurts so bad.

 

[Andrewn]

I do not see eternity as infinite "time," I see eternity as unending, where we will be at the end of time, which fits well with definition #2. . . . Eternity doesn't "begin," eternity always was. We will enter the always-existing eternity at the end of time.

Excellent, we believe the same thing regarding eternity. So, let's see about Mat 25:46.

Mat 25:46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Does the adjective "eternal" mean "eternity-lasting"? How about the following:

1Ti 6:16 He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Only God is eternal: has no beginning or end. Wouldn't you agree? And how about this:

Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

It seems that the point in eternal life is not its duration but in its quality as experiential knowledge (this is what gnosis knowledge is) of God and Christ.

This becomes more clear if we translate the phrase "life of eternity" or "life of the age to come."

In Mat 25:46 and similar passages, the meaning is "punishment of eternity" with the view that it deprives the soul from the knowledge of God and Christ.

We do not know the duration of the punishment. But it appears that some will be punished, even after the resurrection of the body:

Jhn 5:28-29 “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

And that Satan and his demons will be kept in everlasting chains:

Jde 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in everlasting (aidios) bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,

But even here, only the chains or bonds are everlasting and the angels are kept there only until judgment day. At any rate, I'm convinced that UR is not suitable for public teaching.

 

[Hmm]

The torment and burning is not from any outside source.
That's why it hurts so bad.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. God is described as a consuming fire over and over again in scripture. And because it's used to describe God it's a spiritual fire, not a literal fire. "For our God is a consuming fire." (Heb 12:29)

Fire is a symbol of God and it disciplines us and consumes the impurifications in us. Fire is used to describe God as a refiner and goldsmith, who is crafting us into his image. “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like launderer's soap." That is what Christ came to do, to Refine and clean.

We will all go through this stage. Mark 9:49: "Everyone will be salted with fire." Matthew 3:1: "he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire". So God's fire consumes/destroys whatever is sinful In us and will refine us like gold, ultimately saving us.

And this means all of us. Rev 20:12-15 talks about a works based judgement. The believers that have done his work will be rewarded and the unrepentant will be disciplined and purified.

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened - the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their works.The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his works. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death - the lake of fire. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire."

This is talking about purification. It says "according to their works". So this has nothing to do with salvation and is not about whether who goes to hell and who goes to heaven because we all know our salvation is not based on our works. Otherwise we would all go to hell which doesn't make sense.

I think the universalist interpretation does make sense. God desires and will have all creation restored back to him. And "he will wipe every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more. Mourning and crying will be no more, for the old order of things have passed away"

 

[Hmm]

At any rate, I'm convinced that UR is not suitable for public teaching.

I would agree if it was false, but what if it is true? From helping run the popular Alpha course in the UK, I know hat ECT is an insurmountable barrier to many people as they start to explore Christianity. It was for me. The first church I attended told me I had to accept ECT or I would be experiencing it myself! I simply couldn't and left the church for several years thinking all churches were like this. Most churches I have subsequently been to fudge the issue and say that they believe in an eternal hell but that it may very well be empty and we should at least hope that it is.

 

[Hmm]

Actually aoinois is "age lasting," not age related.

That's a distinction without a difference as far as I can see. But I'm happy to agree on "age lasting" if it helps maintain the happy home.

"Punishment" (kolasis) is used in only one other place in the NT, and it means to curtail, prune, dock.

Agreed.

So in Matthew 25:46, "eternal punishment" would be an unending (eternal) restraining or curtailing; i.e., an unending imprisonment

But surely given your definitions above "eternal punishment/kolasis aionios" means an "age lasting pruning", IOW a time limited duration of correction?

 

[Andrewn]

From helping run the popular Alpha course in the UK, I know hat ECT is an insurmountable barrier to many people as they start to explore Christianity.

Do you teach UR in the alpha course?

It was for me. The first church I attended told me I had to accept ECT or I would be experiencing it myself! I simply couldn't and left the church for several years thinking all churches were like this. Most churches I have subsequently been to fudge the issue and say that they believe in an eternal hell but that it may very well be empty and we should at least hope that it is.

In our short exchange in messages #25, 33, 39 and 40, you and I agreed that:

1. UR is best not taught to some people because they psychologically need the threat of an eternal hell in order to lead Christian law-abiding lives.

2. Groups that may benefit from teaching about UR include a) people who lost loved ones that were unbelievers, and b) those who have left the church or won't give it a try because they can't swallow the notion of an endlessly tormenting God.

 

[Andrewn]

This [Rev 20:12-15] is talking about purification. It says "according to their works". So this has nothing to do with salvation and is not about whether who goes to hell and who goes to heaven because we all know our salvation is not based on our works. Otherwise we would all go to hell which doesn't make sense.

The problem that UR advocates gloss over is that that passage, and other similar passages, takes place _after_ resurrection of the body while the punishment and purification are supposed to take place _before_ the resurrection.

I guess I need UR advocates to explain what they believe as happening before vs after resurrection of the body.

Christ's return, resurrection of the body and the final judgment are significant events and their position in UR should be explained rather than glossed over.

 

[Hmm]

Do you teach UR in the alpha course?

UR is not taught on the Alpha course but then neither is ECT. The issue is conveniently avoided! But it always came up and was often the main subject of interest, along with the question of suffering, in the discussion period that followed the presentation video irrespective of the topic for that week.

In our short exchange in messages #25, 33, 39 and 40, you and I agreed that
1. UR is best not taught to some people because they psychologically need the threat of an eternal hell in order to lead Christian law-abiding lives.
2. Groups that may benefit from teaching about UR include a) people who lost loved ones that were unbelievers, and b) those who have left the church or won't give it a try because they can't swallow the notion of an endlessly tormenting God.

Yes, and I still think that. It's impossible on a forum though to know who may benefit and who may be harmed by the teaching. It's probably s mixture of both but doesn't that mean it should it should not be discussed? It's a good question and I don't know what the best answer is!

 

[Der Alte]

Excellent, we believe the same thing regarding eternity. So, let's see about Mat 25:46.
Mat 25:46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Does the adjective "eternal" mean "eternity-lasting"? How about the following:
1Ti 6:16 He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
Only God is eternal: has no beginning or end. Wouldn't you agree? And how about this:
Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
It seems that the point in eternal life is not its duration but in its quality as experiential knowledge (this is what gnosis knowledge is) of God and Christ.
This becomes more clear if we translate the phrase "life of eternity" or "life of the age to come."
In Mat 25:46 and similar passages, the meaning is "punishment of eternity" with the view that it deprives the soul from the knowledge of God and Christ.
We do not know the duration of the punishment. But it appears that some will be punished, even after the resurrection of the body:
Jhn 5:28-29 “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
And that Satan and his demons will be kept in everlasting chains:
Jde 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in everlasting (aidios) bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
But even here, only the chains or bonds are everlasting and the angels are kept there only until judgment day. At any rate, I'm convinced that UR is not suitable for public teaching.

"Punishment of the ages" is false for one reason in Matthew 25:46 neither "aidios" nor "kolasis" are in the genitive case which they must be to be translated "punishment of eternity" or "ages"
You acknowledge "aidios" means ever lasting. In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting. God is eaiher eternal or "age during" or some similar nonsense.

Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

Here are eleven verses where Jesus clearly defines "aionios" as eternal/ever lasting.
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In ten of the following verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.” One vs. Luke 1:33 is spoken by an angel.

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.

[11]John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “lose his life” with “life aionios/eternal.” By definition “aionios” means eternity.

 

[Der Alte]

* * * 1. UR is best not taught to some people because they psychologically need the threat of an eternal hell in order to lead Christian law-abiding lives. * * *

Do you have a degree in Psychology and have you examined a significant number of people that you can determine their spiritual needs? One of my minors is Psychology but I don't consider myself qualified to make such a determination.

 

[Der Alte]

Actually aoinois is "age lasting," not age related.

No it is not see my posts #779-780 above this thead where I conclusively show , by scripture alone, that aionios means "eternal, everlasting etc.

1) From

post #432, this thread, on punishment (kolasis):
"Punishment" (kolasis) is used in only one other place in the NT, and it means to curtail, prune, dock.
So how is it used in the only other verse where it appears?
In 1 John 4:18, "Fear has punishment (torment--kolasis) [or: "Fear is punishing--kolasis]
and he who fears is not perfect in love."
The punishment there is that sense of sin which induces a slavish fear, which
is a docking, curtailing, pruning of perfect love.
Fear docks, curtails, restrains (kolasis--punishes) the enjoyment of love.

Kolasis does NOT mean dock, curtail, prune. Here is the complete definition of kolasis from BDAG one of, if not, the most highly accredited lexicons available.

κόλασις, εως, ἡ (s. prec. three entries; ‘punishment, chastisement’ so Hippocr.+; Diod S 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian, VH 7, 15; SIG2 680, 13; LXX; TestAbr, Test12Patr, ApcEsdr, ApcSed; AscIs 3:13; Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos., Ant. 17, 164; SibOr 5, 388; Ar. [Milne 76, 43]; Just.)
① infliction of suffering or pain in chastisement, punishment so lit. κ. ὑπομένειν undergo punishment Ox 840, 6; δειναὶ κ. (4 Macc 8:9) MPol 2:4; ἡ ἐπίμονος κ. long-continued torture ibid. Of the martyrdom of Jesus (Orig., C. Cels. 1, 48, 95; 8, 43, 12) PtK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices by polytheists ironically described as punishment, injury (s. κολάζω) Dg 2:9.
② transcendent retribution, punishment (ApcSed 4:1 κόλασις καὶ πῦρ ἐστιν ἡ παίδευσίς σου.—Diod S 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80 [30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos., Ant. 1, 60 al.; Just.; Did., Gen., 115, 28; 158, 10) ApcPt 17:32; w. αἰκισμός 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal punishment (w. θάνατος) Dg 9:2 (Diod S 8, 15, 1 κ. ἀθάνατος). Of hell: τόπος κολάσεως ApcPt 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 εἰς ἐκεῖνον τὸν τόπον αἱ κολάσεως δεόμεναι ψυχαὶ καταπέμπονται); ἐν τῇ κ. ἐκείνῃ 10:25; ibid. ἐφορῶσαι τὴν κ. ἐκείνων (cp. ApcEsdr 5:10 p. 30, 2 Tdf. ἐν τῇ κ.). ἐκ τῆς κ. ApcPt Rainer (cp. ἐκ τὴν κ. ApcSed 8:12a; εἰς τὴν κ. 12b and TestAbr B 11 p. 116, 10 [Stone p. 80]). ἀπέρχεσθαι εἰς κ. αἰώνιον go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 (οἱ τῆς κ. ἄξιοι ἀπελεύσονται εἰς αὐτήν Iren. 2, 33, 5 [Harv. I 380, 8]; κ. αἰώνιον as TestAbr A 11 p. 90, 7f [Stone p. 28]; TestReub 5:5; TestGad 7:5; Just., A I, 8, 4; D. 117, 3; Celsus 8, 48; pl. Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 90, 13]). ῥύεσθαι ἐκ τῆς αἰωνίου κ. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. τὴν αἰώνιον κ. ἐξαγοράζεσθαι buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3 v.l. κακαὶ κ. τοῦ διαβόλου IRo 5:3. κ. τινος punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3, 7; 18:30; Philo, Fuga 65 ἁμαρτημάτων κ.) ἔχειν κόλασίν τινα τῆς πονηρίας αὐτοῦ Hs 9, 18, 1. ἀναπαύστως ἕξουσιν τὴν κ. they will suffer unending punishment ApcPt Bodl. 9–12. ὁ φόβος κόλασιν ἔχει fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 (cp. Philo, In Flacc. 96 φόβος κολάσεως).—M-M. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 555). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

Scholars don't sit around making up definitions. They consult historical documents. In this definition I highlighted in blue the sources the BDAG scholars consulted. How many sources have you found for dock, curtail, prune etc?

So in Matthew 25:46, "eternal punishment" would be an unending (eternal) restraining or curtailing; i.e., an unending imprisonment (as in 1 Peter 3:19; 2 Peter 2:4, 2 Peter 2:9; Jude 6),
and we see the nature of that imprisonment in the multitude of Scriptures where Jesus presents unending punishment in Gehenna (Mark 9:43, 45, 47-48; Matthew 5:22, 12:31, 13:30, 18:8-9, 25:41, 46; Luke 16:24).
2) Full demonstration of the Biblical meaning of "aionios" (eternal) is presented in post #497, this thread.
There is no mistranslation of Matthew 25:46.

If it does not say "eternal punishment" then Matt 25:46 is mistranslated
The correct meaning of "aionios" is in my posts #779-780, this thread

 

[Andrewn]

"Punishment of the ages" is false for one reason in Matthew 25:46 neither "aidios" nor "kolasis" are in the genitive case which they must be to be translated "punishment of eternity" or "ages"

Your arguments can be easily answered. But there is no point in another answer to the same arguments since you apparently do not read the answers. For example, I never said that "aionios" meant "punishment of the ages." I don't even know know what "punishment of the ages" means. You should address whoever made that claim.

 

[Der Alte]

Your arguments can be easily answered. But there is no point in another answer to the same arguments since you apparently do not read the answers. For example, I never said that "aionios" meant "punishment of the ages." I don't even know know what "punishment of the ages" means. You should address whoever made that claim.

I have been told that that my arguments can be easily answered but alas I have seen little to no evidence of that.
Did you not say, "This becomes more clear if we translate the phrase "life of eternity" or "life of the age to come."
If "aionios zoe" means "Life of the age to come." Then the other phrase "aionios kolasis" must mean "punishment of the age to come." But my argument still holds for "aionios zoe" neither word is in the genitive case which they must be to be translated "Life of..."

 

[Hmm]

Do you have a degree in Psychology and have you examined a significant number of people that you can determine their spiritual needs? One of my minors is Psychology but I don't consider myself qualified to make such a determination.

Some of the early church fathers also thought that and explicitly said so, Gregory of Nyssa being one. I provided a quote from him to this effect on this or one of the other universalist threads (I'm not going to hunt it down though)

 

[Der Alte]

Some of the early church fathers also thought that and explicitly said so, Gregory of Nyssa being one. I provided a quote from him to this effect on this or one of the other universalist threads (I'm not going to hunt it down though)

Pity! There is always some guy somewhere who said something that proves everything I said is wrong but no one has the time to actually quote this guy.

 

[Der Alte]

Your arguments can be easily answered. But there is no point in another answer to the same arguments since you apparently do not read the answers. For example, I never said that "aionios" meant "punishment of the ages." I don't even know know what "punishment of the ages" means. You should address whoever made that claim.

Oh I read them and respond to some of them. If the replies are lengthy as many are I may pick out 2-3 statements which when proven wrong blow big holes in counter arguments.

 

[Der Alte]

The problem that UR advocates gloss over is that that passage, [Rev 20:12-15]] and other similar passages, takes place _after_ resurrection of the body while the punishment and purification are supposed to take place _before_ the resurrection.
I guess I need UR advocates to explain what they believe as happening before vs after resurrection of the body.
Christ's return, resurrection of the body and the final judgment are significant events and their position in UR should be explained rather than glossed over.

Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

I don't see the problem. I think Rev 20:112-15 and Matt 25:31-46 are the same event. Lake of fire Rev 20:15 and eternal punishment Mat 25:46 same thing.

Matthew 25:31-46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment​

 

[Hmm]

Pity! There is always some guy somewhere who said something that proves everything I said is wrong but no one has the time to actually quote this guy.

Not just "some guy", I said it was Gregory of Nyssa. I quoted "this guy" on this question but I'm not going to find the exact post for you. You like research anyway don't you?

 

[Der Alte]

Not just "some guy", I said it was Gregory of Nyssa. I quoted "this guy" on this question but I'm not going to find the exact post for you. You like research anyway don't you?

I rarely say anything I can't back up. I didn't think you could support what you say.

 

[Hmm]

I rarely say anything I can't back up. I didn't think you could support what you say.

Whatever