Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[2PhiloVoid]

You see the discussion of whether God as revealed by Christ Is someone who is capable of sending the people we love to eternal conscious torment as a sport? Really?

I think we have an interpretive problem here, because you're not recognizing the contexts of what I said.

First off, it was a statement addressed specifically and only to @Albion.

Secondly, it was a bit of humor, which some of you folks here, both UR & ECT are in dire need of (and I don't mean just a resorting to the use of sarcasm).​

I actually DON'T like competition. I wish we all could work together a little more.

Thirdy, keep in mind that I'm fairly ecumenical and I'm not saying that UR falls completely outside of the bounds of orthodoxy. So far, I've only offered some commentary and constructive criticism. ​

 

[Hmm]

Secondly, it was a bit of humor, which some of you folks here, both UR & ECT are in dire need of (and I don't mean just a resorting to the use of sarcasm).

I have a short-circuit in all my humour diodes at the moment, and I can't think why, which could be why I didn't recognise it as such. Forget what I said then

 

[Hmm]

Thirdy, keep in mind that I'm fairly ecumenical and I'm not saying that UR falls completely outside of the bounds of orthodoxy. So far, I've only offered some commentary and constructive criticism.

And I appreciate your contribution to the debate, and that's serious, no /s involved!

 

[ozso]

This is only true if one hangs to a misunderstanding of the word "eionios. Otherwise, UR is clear in the Bible for those who love God's Word.

I think what also can be taken into consideration is what verses might be prophetic judgements regarding Israel's impending doom, similar to the ones given by the OT prophets, rather than about eternal torment hell.

 

[Hillsage]

To this my reply is 1 Timothy 2:3-4

1TI 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will/thelo have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time. (IOW the ages to come)

Here is the problem with your take on scripture. First; read to verse 6, for context. Second: bad translation. God doesn't "desire all to be saved", as your lying scribe's translation insinuates. He WILLS it to be, or "determines" it as a mandate.

2309 thelo
to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas 1014 boulomai properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations), ie choose or prefer (lit or fig); by impl to wish, ie be inclined to (sometimes adv gladly); impers. for the fut tense, to be about to; by Heb. to delight in

The Greek word your translation interprets as "desire", is the definition of another Greek word boulomai. That is the word used in your 2Peter verse. But let's unpack it .

"God does not WISH that any perish." Well I'm pretty sure that when God WISHES, His wishes come true. Your wish that they Go to ECT????....probably isn't going to trump God's wish in this verse AND His 'determination' in the 1Tim 2 verse.

The rest of your post 'theology' is just as easily dealt with for me, but I'm staying short. Hopefully this is enough meat for you to chew on.

 

[Andrewn]

"The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).

"The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Praise God that, through Jesus, we can escape this eternal fate (John 3:16, 18, 36)."

Thank you for providing a comprehensive list of Biblical passages, which seem to support ECT doctrine. I will address all of them except verses from the OT and verses from Revelation because figurative and hyperbolic language is common in them. But first, I would like to briefly discuss the meaning of "ζωὴν αἰώνιον," which is commonly translated "eternal life."

The Nicene Creed says, "προσδοκοῦμεν ἀνάστασιν νεκρῶν, καὶ ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος." This means, "I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come."

What I notice here is that instead of saying "ζωὴν αἰώνιον," they said "ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος." This means the same thing. In other words:

eternal life = the life of the age to come.

We need to apply this principle in the verses you quoted to see how God's punishment is described and I will start from the beginning. Note that in all verses the quality of the punishment is described, not the duration:

Mat 24:41 τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον = the fire of the age to come.
Mat 3:12 πυρὶ ἀσβέστῳ = unquenchable fire.
Mar 9:44-49 the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
Luk 16:23-24 no one here disagrees that there is a place of torment and fire.
2Th 1:9 ὄλεθρον αἰώνιον = destruction of the age to come.
Mat 25:46 κόλασιν αἰώνιον = punishment of the age to come.
Joh 3:15-36 We agree that “he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

There is a completely different Greek word used in the Bible that meant eternal: ἀΐδιος used in only 2 verses:

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Jde 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,

 

[Andrewn]

Either way, those who do not accept Christ as Lord and Savior, during their natural lives on this earth, burn in the end.

Wouldn't this be a great day for Satan and his demons!!!

 

[spiritfilledjm]

Wouldn't this be a great day for Satan and his demons!!!

Not really...because they'll either be dead or burning eternally depending on what ends up happening with that.

 

[BNR32FAN]

2309 thelo
to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas 1014 boulomai properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations), ie choose or prefer (lit or fig); by impl to wish, ie be inclined to (sometimes adv gladly); impers. for the fut tense, to be about to; by Heb. to delight in

The Greek word your translation interprets as "desire", is the definition of another Greek word boulomai. That is the word used in your 2Peter verse. But let's unpack it .

John 16:18 the very same word is used to show that Jesus’ apostles wanted/desired to ask Him a question.

Romans 7:15-21 thelō is used several times pertaining to what Paul does and does not want/desire to do.

“For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.” Romans‬ ‭7:15-21 ‭NASB1995‬‬

The definition you’ve provided does not fit the use of the word in the proper context since Paul’s desire to do good is in opposition to his desire to do evil. This is why strong’s concordance defines the word thelō as such.

1. to will, have in mind, intend
a. to be resolved or determined, to purpose
b. to desire, to wish
c. to love
1. to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
d. to take delight in, have pleasure

So my interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:3-4 is sound especially since Jesus specifically stated that not everyone who says to Him Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven. Your interpretation cannot be correct without contradicting Jesus’ words in Matthew 7:21. If at any time everyone enters Heaven then Jesus’ words in Matthew 7:21 becomes a false statement.

God does not WISH that any perish." Well I'm pretty sure that when God WISHES, His wishes come true. Your wish that they Go to ECT????....probably isn't going to trump God's wish in this verse AND His 'determination' in the 1Tim 2 verse.

This is nothing more than a childish attack on me. You have absolutely nothing to base this statement on as I do not wish anyone to burn in the LOF nor have I said anything to that effect. So let’s just avoid the false accusations about one another and stick with the facts about the discussion. Telling lies about one another only discredits ourselves.

 

[Clare73]

What I've seen is rejection of the interpretation of some scripture. What you're implying is disagreeing with the interpretation you hold to will send people to hell. That's trying to use fear to get people to drop their interpretation and adopt your interpretation.

False premise. . .i.e., no Scripture can be truly understood, all is interpretation.

How did hell get into this?

I spoke only of a destination they would not like.

 

[Clare73]

I agree but with the difference that while you probably see the words "condemned" and "wrath" as pointing towards ECT, I don't see that mentioned at all in the passage and I believe they suggest a period of correction carried out in love for the ultimate good of the person involved, in the same way that a parent corrects their child.

Which has nothing to do with my post.

 

[Hillsage]

John 16:18 the very same word is used to show that Jesus’ apostles wanted/desired to ask Him a question.

Romans 7:15-21 thelō is used several times pertaining to what Paul does and does not want/desire to do.

John 16:18 does not mean they weren't DETERMINED to ask. All that verse shows is that Jesus knew what their question was going to be.
And Paul is not God.

Paul is fighting with himself in all of this. There is 'no fight' one wins, when one FIGHTS God. Paul is revealing that 'in him' he does not have "the fullness of the stature of the image of Christ" in him. And that 'fight' isn't for going to heaven, it is a fight to get heaven into your soul here on earth. Your OSAS spirit is your ticket INTO heaven in the hereafter. Not your works here on earth AFTER you've been born again.

The definition you’ve provided does not fit the use of the word in the proper context since Paul’s desire to do good is in opposition to his desire to do evil. This is why strong’s concordance defines the word thelō as such.

1. to will, have in mind, intend
a. to be resolved or determined, to purpose
b. to desire, to wish
c. to love
1. to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
d. to take delight in, have pleasure

The very fact that STRONG himself was most assuredly an ECT believer, allows me to assume that his definitions are also subject to his understandable bias, That bias also justifies my questioning? If you can't see that, then just realize that I do.

The very fact that the word for "DETERMINED" is also revealed as showing the 'active' difference, with thelo, when compared in the 'passive' definition of another word boulomai, should give one a clue something is a bit fishy at worst, but revelatory also....IMO. I'm taking the last POV.

2309 thelo
to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas 1014 boulomai properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations), ie choose or prefer (lit or fig); by impl to wish, ie be inclined to (sometimes adv gladly); impers. for the fut tense, to be about to; by Heb. to delight in

So my interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:3-4 is sound especially since Jesus specifically stated that not everyone who says to Him Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven. Your interpretation cannot be correct without contradicting Jesus’ words in Matthew 7:21. If at any time everyone enters Heaven then Jesus’ words in Matthew 7:21 becomes a false statement.

Not going to go in to your misunderstanding of the twisting of the scribes again. Suffice to say, that passage has nothing to do with 'Going to heaven when you die.' It has to do with becoming a partaker of manifesting the kingdom of God on earth.

YLT MAT 7:21 'Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavenS;(plural in Greek) but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heaven.

This is nothing more than a childish attack on me. You have absolutely nothing to base this statement on as I do not wish anyone to burn in the LOF nor have I said anything to that effect. So let’s just avoid the false accusations about one another and stick with the facts about the discussion. Telling lies about one another only discredits ourselves.

You know what? You're right, and I apologize for that. It just feels like those who work so hard to justify such a fate for God's creation, just make us feel like it should apply. Again, bad assumption for me to write. I can only ask for forgiveness from you.

 

[Albion]

False premise. . .i.e., no Scripture can be truly understood, all is interpretation.

You're right, of course. Potentially, we could say that nothing is to be believed since there's always the possibility that whatever we're dealing with is just an impression, a perception, an illusion, an interpretation, but not anything we can or should actually believe.

 

[Der Alte]

Thank you for providing a comprehensive list of Biblical passages, which seem to support ECT doctrine. I will address all of them except verses from the OT and verses from Revelation because figurative and hyperbolic language is common in them. But first, I would like to briefly discuss the meaning of "ζωὴν αἰώνιον," which is commonly translated "eternal life."
The Nicene Creed says, "προσδοκοῦμεν ἀνάστασιν νεκρῶν, καὶ ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος." This means, "I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come."
What I notice here is that instead of saying "ζωὴν αἰώνιον," they said "ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος." This means the same thing. In other words:
eternal life = the life of the age to come.
We need to apply this principle in the verses you quoted to see how God's punishment is described and I will start from the beginning. Note that in all verses the quality of the punishment is described, not the duration:
Mat 24:41 τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον = the fire of the age to come.
Mat 3:12 πυρὶ ἀσβέστῳ = unquenchable fire.
Mar 9:44-49 the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
Luk 16:23-24 no one here disagrees that there is a place of torment and fire.
2Th 1:9 ὄλεθρον αἰώνιον = destruction of the age to come.
Mat 25:46 κόλασιν αἰώνιον = punishment of the age to come.
Joh 3:15-36 We agree that “he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Now you have given your unsupported opinion of what you assume the words mean. Can you back any of this up with any kind of in-depth lexical or grammatical information?
Some quite evident errors in your "interpretation.
Matt 25:41, 2 Th 1:9, Mat 25:46, There are no Greek words for "to come." in these vss. The words have been added to make the vss. say what some UR-ite wants them to say.

There is a completely different Greek word used in the Bible that meant eternal: ἀΐδιος used in only 2 verses:
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Jde 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,

I'm glad you mentioned these two verses. Yes, there is no disagreement among scholars that "aidios" does mean eternal, everlasting, unending etc.
I am going to show you from scripture alone, no quotes, no scholars, that "aioinios" is synonymous with "aidios.".

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal [αιδιος/aidios] power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

.....In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead/divine nature as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, Romans, refers to God, Himself, as “aionios.” Since God’s power and Godhead/divine nature is aidios/eternal, vs. 1:20, then God, Himself is eternal/aionios vs. 16:26.
Here Paul has used “aionios” synonymous with “aidios.” So by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
.....Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church for 2000+ years. Who better than the native Greek speaking scholars, who translated the Eastern Orthodox Bible, know the correct meaning of Greek words in the NT?

Mat 25:41 Then he will also say to those on his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels!
Mat 25:46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mt 25:45–46). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.
2 Th 1:9
9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his power,
Matt 25:46
46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
John 3:15-16 so that everyone believing in him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 Indeed, God so loved the world that he gave his uniquely-begotten Son, so that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Jn 3:14–16). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.​

 

[ozso]

False premise. . .i.e., no Scripture can be truly understood, all is interpretation.

But some, like you, accuse people of going against the Word of God, when in reality they just don't agree with your interpretation of it.

How did hell get into this?

I spoke only of a destination they would not like.

It sounded like you were implying the destination was hell.

 

[Albion]

But some, like you, accuse people of going against the Word of God, when in reality they just don't agree with your interpretation of it.

...and with that, we've come back to the point made by the pro-Universalist side here earlier but then denied.

That is to say, the underlying basis for it among devotees, all the wrangling over Scripture we've experienced here aside, is just what the title of the thread said at the beginning of this--"What's not to like?"

The driving force of the Universalist argument here has been "Universal Salvation would be wonderful if it were true, so I'm making it my belief."

 

[ozso]

...and with that, we've come back to the point made by the pro-Universalist side here earlier but then denied.

That is to say, the underlying basis for it among devotees, all the wrangling over Scripture we've experienced here aside, is just what the title of the thread said at the beginning of this--"What's not to like?"

The driving force of the Universalist argument here has been "Universal Salvation would be wonderful if it were true, so I'm making it my belief."

Accusing someone of "going against the Word of God" or "calling God a liar" etc because they don't agree with your interpretation, is wrong no matter who does it.

 

[Albion]

Accusing someone of "going against the Word of God" or "calling God a liar" etc because they don't agree with your interpretation, is wrong no matter who does it.

Perhaps, but that isn't the point your post was making and, in any case, your message should be directed to the person involved.

 

[ozso]

Perhaps, but that isn't the point your post was making and, in any case, your message should be directed to the person involved.

My point was quite clear and it was directed at the person involved.

 

[Albion]

My point was quite clear and it was directed at the person involved.

Not when you began your post with a quote from me who had said none of the things you didn't care for, it wasn't.