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Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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2PhiloVoid

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It was I who brought Sartre into the conversation and this was because you've said a few times you are an existentialist, were saying that moral values are relativistic and so I thought you would appreciate and relate to the story of where Sartre moved away from that view towards seeing that moral values were absolute. I was obviously mistaken.
Yes, I realize now that you were speaking outside of your own area of expertise. But don't worry, I don't hold grudges when folks mis-speak and take us down tangential lines because they failed to inquire about another interlocutor's background sources or influences. More importantly, and to your credit, I know it's not due to any character flaw on your part, and I very much appreciate your strong moral inclinations and intuitions.

Rather than Sartre, I have Pascal and Kierkegaard in mind, along with any other even more contemporary philosophers who take umbrage with the typical, run-of-the-mill and status quo assumptions that are bandied about by today's popular voices on the fronts of Epistemology, Axiology and ... **cough** ... Metaphysics.

The point I was trying to make is that to many, if not to you, the notion of eternal torment/torture (or even a momentary torment/torture) is an absolute moral evil. No ifs, no buts. Christian universalism takes this view and in addition argues that Scripture does not support the idea of ECT.
No, if you've taken any Ethics courses at all, and if you've handled any full-fledged academic surveys of Ethical and Moral frameworks, you'd know that your assertion about "no ifs, no buts" is tenuous at best. And if this is the view that UR takes, then it's a fault line running through its structure, and one that like a thread in an unraveling cloth, I'll just pull on when I see the obvious Axiological loose ends.
 
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Carl Emerson

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We maintain that erroneous and contradictory assumptions are being made about the character of God. Your "balanced" view is only to maintain the status quo, which we are taking issue with.

Nonsense - I read scripture prayerfully for over 5 years in a stretch without input from commentaries or books because my broken mind needed to be washed by His Word. This was far from a status quo exercise.
 
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Hmm

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No, if you've taken any Ethics courses at all, and if you've handling any full-fledged academic surveys of Ethical and Moral frameworks, you'd know that your assertion about "no ifs, no buts" is tenuous at best. And if this is the view that UR takes, then it's a fault line running through its structure, and one that like a thread in an unraveling cloth, I'll just pull on when I see the obvious Axiological loose ends.

You are correct to say that philosophically there are no absolute certainties but, nevertheless, we often have to live as if there were. No-one really knows for example whether their partner loves them or not - they may just be pretending, we can't know for sure that they're not - but anyone trying to conduct a relationship with that uncertainty as it's defining feature is not going to be very successful.

Morality involve making an commitment to moral values in the face of this objective uncertainty. The same is true of faith. You may regard that as a fault but it is true nevertheless. Your argument seems to be that we can't really say anything because we don't know anything beyond all doubt. But you are being self-contradictory if you don't acknowledge that that also applies to that argument itself. It is really no more than your subjective opinion with no more claim to absolute truth than anything else. There is absolute truth but we see through a glass darkly and can't apprehend it.

So I agree with your general philosophical point but if no-one can say anything with being able to demonstrate its objective veracity, no no-one would be able to say or post anything at all, including you. Except for @Saint Steven.

This is a different kind of thread anyway. It's simply to talk about Christian universalism and why some people don't like it. Can we go easy on the philosophy please.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Sorry, I won't sit by with arms folded while God is being slandered by the larger group. Nor will I fail to speak up for the victims of spiritual extortion. Believe or burn.

Mmmm... God being 'slandered' by His own Word ???
 
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Carl Emerson

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The second observation is that the objective of God is to avenge the oppressed: to protect the orphan and the widow. His "Daddyship" cannot be overemphasized. The objective is therapeutic. It is not to torment the offender forever.

Does He not harden the hearts of sinners?

Romans 1 says He gave them over to their sinful passions.

'Daddyship' can certainly be over emphasised.

In modern mega churches this concept opens the door to all manner of permissiveness.
 
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BNR32FAN

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God allows a lot of evil in the world.

But translations are not necessarily in error, the adjective "eternal" itself is beautiful if it understood correctly to mean "of eternity" or "belonging to eternity." Here is the definition of "eternity":

"Eternity, in common parlance, means infinite time that never ends (or the quality, condition or fact of being eternal). Classical philosophy, however, defines eternity as what exists outside time - as in describing supernatural beings and forces."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternity

If we understand "eternity" to mean infinite time, then "eternal" is misunderstood to mean "endless."

But if we understood "eternity" as a reference to the Kingdom of God, to Heavenly Jerusalem, to the Age to Come, then "eternal" means "otherworldly" or "belonging to God." This is how I understand the word "eternal."

But this same Greek word is used in the scriptures to describe God’s glory, His reign, His power, our life after this world for those who are in Christ Jesus, and the fig tree that Jesus caused to wither that won’t bear anymore fruit and many more applications that are clearly never ending.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Does He not harden the hearts of sinners?

Romans 1 says He gave them over to their sinful passions.

'Daddyship' can certainly be over emphasised.

In modern mega churches this concept opens the door to all manner of permissiveness.

“Them” in Romans 1 refers to those who saw the truth but refused to adhere to God’s will. Not necessarily believers, that’s not actually revealed in Romans 1.

Edit: No I’m thinking of another verse your right. Sorry brother.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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You are correct to say that philosophically there are no absolute certainties but, nevertheless, we often have to live as if there were. No-one really knows for example whether their partner loves them or not - they may just be pretending, we can't know for sure that they're not - but anyone trying to conduct a relationship with that uncertainty as it's defining feature is not going to be very successful.
That feels like a very dichotomous way to say it, and it shows that you're not quite up on the various types and level of Logic. This all moves beyond the level 1st order levels of thinking, and my Skepticism is that of Pascal and Kierkegaard, not of the Logical Postivists. So, no, fortunately, my position can't simply be wished away in brief fashion. Granted, it would be nice if it could be, but Analytic Philosophy doesn't enable either you or I to escape the Epistemic complications we all have and (which often) many folks either are just unaware of or dismiss due to Pragmatic notions that really don't obtain nor can be known to be reflected in Reality.

As for relationships, a lot of people these days are quite unsuccessful, aren't they? I wonder what the divorce rate is among those who hold to UR verses ECT?

involve making an commitment to moral values in the face of this objective uncertainty.
True. It does, but a commitment should likely be informed along the way by the recognition of various contingencies which manifest in the ongoing daily grind of life ...

The same is true of faith. You may regard that as a fault but it is true nevertheless.
Not exactly, theologically speaking. If there is any truth to the contents that we find written in the time worn pages of the Bible, we see that faith in God through Christ requires the activity of the Holy Spirit along with our human predispositions and epistemic limitations.

However, unlike this theological epistemic quandry we have whith God, general commitment to, say, a spouse requires a different kind and level of input socially and epistemically than would be referred to by various biblical models reflecting our states of mind in which we 'relate' to God.

Your argument seems to be that we can't really say anything because we don't know anything beyond all doubt. But you are being self-contradictory if you don't acknowledge that that also applies to that argument itself. It is really no more than your subjective opinion with no more claim to absolute truth than anything else. There is absolute truth but we see through a glass darkly and can't apprehend it.
My apologies if my argument 'seems' to insinuate that we can't say anything. Rather, my position is that we can't say as much, nor establish as much, as we'd often like to in order to fully justify our ethical, social and spiritual notions

So I agree with your general philosophical point but if no-one can say anything with being able to demonstrate its objective veracity, no no-one would be able to say or post anything at all, including you. Except for @Saint Steven.
Yeah.... I hear you. But fortunately, I don't advocate a "no-one can say anything" position. Pascal didn't. Kierkegaard didn't. Wittgenstein didn't. Others haven't. But what I can say is that the nature and functions of those ideas we think of as enabling us to conceptualize 'objectivity' and 'subjectivity' (or 'relativity' for that matter) may not always be as clear cut, fully identified and uncomplicated as we often like to make them out to be. And my epistemic, existential position in saying this would then apply to UR, ECT and Annihilationism ... all.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I would invite those who question God's actions to humbly ponder on this Word.

Romans 9

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it!
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I show compassion.”
16 So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very reason I raised you up, in order to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the earth.”
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”
20 On the contrary, who are you, you foolish person, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
21 Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use, and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 namely us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles
 
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Saint Steven

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But if, on a purely analytic level we can ascertain and identify the fact--the unmovable fact-- that there are questions we have which are not just remaining unanswered but are actually unanswerable, then none of us can claim that such and such an idea "doesn't align with the theology" since there is no comprehensive and complete theology that any of us actually has and can refer to. What we are left with are just incomplete claims in relation to our inquiries about God.
I meant that the workarounds don't align with the theology of the Infernalists that claim that faith in Jesus is the only means of salvation. (will babies go to hell?)

Saint Steven said:
To be fair, there are questions on both sides that are unanswerable.
Like: did God really predestine countless billions to eternal conscious torment who never even heard the name of Jesus? Or, will babies go to hell? (we get workarounds on these that don't align with the theology)
 
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Saint Steven

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What in these answers do not align with the theology?
You'll have to state the means of salvation for me to answer that.
For instance, what becomes of unbaptized babies? Or those who have never encountered the Church?

Saint Steven said:
To be fair, there are questions on both sides that are unanswerable.
Like: did God really predestine countless billions to eternal conscious torment who never even heard the name of Jesus? Or, will babies go to hell? (we get workarounds on these that don't align with the theology)
 
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Saint Steven

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This was far from a status quo exercise.
The proof is in the pudding. It doesn't matter how you got there. You are defending the status quo.
 
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Saint Steven

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Abaxvahl

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You'll have to state the means of salvation for me to answer that.
For instance, what becomes of unbaptized babies? Or those who have never encountered the Church?

Saint Steven said:
To be fair, there are questions on both sides that are unanswerable.
Like: did God really predestine countless billions to eternal conscious torment who never even heard the name of Jesus? Or, will babies go to hell? (we get workarounds on these that don't align with the theology)

All salvation comes through Christ. The means of salvation for unbaptized babies if they are saved I'd think is God's will, but ultimately it is unknown. I say it would be simply God's will for I believe in child baptism which puts them in a state of salvation even as they can will nothing, combined with the teaching that there is given to each human person a concrete opportunity to be saved I do not see how they would resist it, but I don't know. I also consider the Holy Innocents who died under King Herod and are Saints, but they died in relation to Christ. But in a way are not all related to Christ ("what you do to the least is done to me")? I would need to study more Church Fathers (specifically St. Maximus the Confessor who allegedly has information directly related to this) to know for sure. The Church just says they are entrusted to the mercy of God.

For adults it is much more clear: "an act of love suffices for baptism." They can enter the state of grace via this means and be saved, and will be judged according to their consciences and go through purgatory. By doing this they are in the Church even if they have not heard of or rejected the Church without deadly sin (Pope St. JP2 gives both of these as being possible, and I believe a note from Pope St. Pius X also gives this sort of entry into the Church a specific name but it escapes my memory right now).
 
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Saint Steven

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All salvation comes through Christ. The means of salvation for unbaptized babies if they are saved I'd think is God's will, but ultimately it is unknown. I say it would be simply God's will for I believe in child baptism which puts them in a state of salvation even as they can will nothing, combined with the teaching that there is given to each human person a concrete opportunity to be saved I do not see how they would resist it, but I don't know. I also consider the Holy Innocents who died under King Herod and are Saints, but they died in relation to Christ. But in a way are not all related to Christ ("what you do to the least is done to me")? I would need to study more Church Fathers (specifically St. Maximus the Confessor who allegedly has information directly related to this) to know for sure. The Church just says they are entrusted to the mercy of God.

For adults it is much more clear: "an act of love suffices for baptism." They can enter the state of grace via this means and be saved, and will be judged according to their consciences and go through purgatory. By doing this they are in the Church even if they have not heard of or rejected the Church without deadly sin (Pope St. JP2 gives both of these as being possible).
Thanks.
How many workarounds do you count in your post? (that's my point)
 
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Abaxvahl

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Thanks.
How many workarounds do you count in your post? (that's my point)

For adults I think it all consistently follows from what Christ and the Apostles taught so I wouldn't count it as a workaround, as if I am avoiding some undesirable theology by fabricating concepts, but it is explicitly what the Church believes. For instance with adults who are non-Christian there have always been the concept of virtuous pagans who were saved in the Church, St. Justin Martyr even records that belief. As theology developed it got formalized to precision on how they are saved, it is "implicit baptism of desire." I also found exactly what the notes and quotes are, there are many but Pope Ven. Pius XII said:

"Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing. However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God. These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, “On the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ” (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.). For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire."

"An act of love is sufficient for the adult to obtain sanctifying grace and to supply the lack of baptism."

As for children perhaps people are working around things with it due to emotional attachment to them. The reason I think it is probable they are saved is because AFAIK it would make an inconsistency in theology to hold otherwise, but of course if God damns them it would be resolved. We should not have such an attachment for the human race is spoiled matter as St. Thomas says and the Law also says "your eye shall not pity." I don't really think there are here either though but I will look through my sources again and see if they are doing that and stop if I find it.
 
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Saint Steven

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Pardon ???

Are you making a case for Eternal Life coming to an end?
Here's what "the Word of God" says.

Matthew 25:46 - Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
 
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Abaxvahl

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Here's what "the Word of God" says.

Matthew 25:46 - Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Does this not just prove that the word represented by "age-during" can mean unending in certain contexts? For the Scriptures say we inherit the Kingdom and will reign with Christ, and the Creed says the Kingdom has no end, so we will have no end, and this must be the age referred to here for the righteous.
 
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