Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Der Alte]

There is as hell but it has a corrective/educative purpose and lasts for a limited duration.

Nonsense! I don't care how many 100 biased "scholars" are quoted. I have repeatedly posted a list of 26 twenty-six verses, in the NT, scripture only, no commentary from anyone, which defines/describes the meaning of "aionios" as "eternal"/"everlasting."
Thee are no, zero, none verses which similarly define/describe "aionios" as a period less than eternal.
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is correctly translated eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is correctly translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, Jesus never used “aionios” to refer anything ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
Here are three of 10 verses where Jesus defines/describes "aionios" as eternal/everlasting.

John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
Paul used the word “aionios” eighteen [18] times. It is translated “eternal/everlasting” 16 times and world 2 times. Here are two of those verses.

Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

Galatians 6:8
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “life not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

How can we tell how long God would need to win some people over?

Where does God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself says unequivocally that either of them will save all mankind, righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death or words to that effect?

 

[Hmm]

I have repeatedly posted a list of 26 twenty-six verses, in the NT, scripture only, no commentary from anyone, which defines/describes the meaning of "aionios" as "eternal"/"everlasting."

Yes I've noticed. Hard not to. However a biblical verse may contain the words eternal/everlasting but that's not the same thing as defining the words. You need a translator's commentary for that. Perhaps that's where you're going wrong?

 

[Carl Emerson]

That saw cuts both ways.

Besides, we are fully appraised of Damnationism and Annihilationism. It's not as if we haven't made an informed choice. Can you say that?

UR is suppressed in the churches. This is a venue where it can be discussed.
Although you aren't even trying to understand it.
Just shooting from the hip because you have prejudged it to be wrong.

What do you like best about hell?
And why do you fight tooth and nail to preserve it?

And in reference to your comment about God not being our Daddy (Abba Father)...

Matthew 18:3 NIV
And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

I have made an informed choice to revere the Father as Holy as well as Loving with the prerogative to express Wrath in Justice.

I have not prejudged anything, I have had some serious encounters with God that leave me eternally grateful regarding His mercy and eternally respectful of His Holiness.

I am not fighting to preserve anything in His Word - He does that.

And of course God is a Loving Father but it is also a terrible thing to fall into His hands.

What we are seeing in this debate is the danger of overemphasising 'Daddyship' resulting in an unbalanced view of the Godhead.

Would you kindly read the article Andrew posted and comment?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Different Bible translators cannot change the translation if they want to sell copies.

This claim raises a serious question.

This discussion includes the claim by some that bible translations across the board have been in error.

This amounts to God ignoring the prayers of the scholars for inspiration and accuracy, stood aloof and allowed the whole world to be deceived.

Personally I cant conceive of my God allowing that.

Unless the Spirit was totally withdrawn and no longer guided His saints into all truth.

Comments?

 

[Der Alte]

Yes I've noticed. Hard not to. However a biblical verse may contain the words eternal/everlasting but that's not the same thing as defining the words. You need a translator's commentary for that. Perhaps that's where you're going wrong?

Total utter nonsense! You don't know what you are talking about.
I speak more than one language.
Once I had a conversation with a friend in Germany '63ish who spoke no English. She used a word I did not understand "beinah" pronounced "Bye nah." I told her I did not understand the word. She said "Es ist noch nicht elf uhr aber beinah elf uhr.
"It is not yet eleven o'clock but beinah eleven o'clock. What does "beinah" mean?
My wife of 39 years is Korean I lived and worked in Korea for 15 years and learned quite bit of the language.
Here is a Korean word 자전거 pronounced "jahjungo" it has 2 wheels and people ride it using two foot pedals. What does 자전거 mean?
I have just given you the meaning of two foreign words without using a translator's commentary.
Let's go back to Matt 25:46 heterodox folks try to make "everlasting punishment." mean "correction of the age(s)"
"aionios" is an adjective which modifies, "kolasis" which is is a noun accusative, singular, feminine.
"of the ages" is a genitive phrase. "Genitive definition is marks a person or thing that possesses someone or something else or the source from which someone or something comes..."
There is no genitive in the original Greek κολασιν αιωνιον.

 

[Der Alte]

This claim raises a serious question.
This discussion includes the claim by some that bible translations across the board have been in error.
This amounts to God ignoring the prayers of the scholars for inspiration and accuracy, stood aloof and allowed the whole world to be deceived.
Personally I cant conceive of my God allowing that.
Unless the Spirit was totally withdrawn and no longer guided His saints into all truth.
Comments?

I would add a caveat. Some religious groups make their own translations which just happen to support their group's beliefs and practices. I can think of two off the top of my head. New World Translation, NWT, by the JWs and the Joseph Smith Translation, JST, by the LDS.

 

[Hmm]

Here is a Korean word 자전거 pronounced "jahjungo" it has 2 wheels and people ride it using two foot pedals. What does 자전거 mean?

Yes, but that's a simple word with only one meaning: a wheelbarrow bike obviously. Aiõnios is a far more complex word.

 

[Der Alte]

[ATTACYes, but that's a simple word with only one meaning: a wheelbarrow bike obviously. Aiõnios is a far more complex word. * * *

A rather factually sparse response.

αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ (Hom.+; gener. ‘an extended period of time’, in var. senses)
① a long period of time, without ref. to beginning or end,
ⓐ of time gone by, the past, earliest times, readily suggesting a venerable or awesome eld οἱ ἅγιοι ἀπʼ αἰῶνος προφῆται the holy prophets fr. time immemorial (cp. Hes., Theog. 609; Περὶ ὕψους 34, 4 τοὺς ἀπʼ αἰ. ῥήτορας; Cass. Dio 63, 20 τῶν ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰ. Ῥωμαίων; IMagnMai 180, 4; SIG index; Gen 6:4; Tob 4:12; Sir 14:17; 51:8; En 14:1; 99:14; Jos., Bell. 1, 12; Just., D. 11, 1) Lk 1:70; Ac 3:21; make known from of old Ac 15:18; πρὸ παντὸς τ. αἰ. before time began Jd 25a (for the combination with πᾶς cp. Sallust. 20 p. 36, 5 τὸν πάντα αἰῶνα=through all eternity); pl. πρὸ τῶν αἰ. 1 Cor 2:7 (cp. Ps 54:20 θεὸς ὁ ὑπάρχων πρὸ τῶν αἰ. [PGM 4, 3067 ἀπὸ τ. ἱερῶν αἰώνων]); ἐξ αἰ. since the beginning D 16:4 (Diod S 1, 6, 3; 3, 20, 2; 4, 83, 3; 5, 2, 3; Sext. Emp., Math. 9, 62; OGI 669, 61; Philo, Somn. 1, 19; Jos., Bell. 5, 442; Sir 1:4; SibOr Fgm. 1, 16 of God μόνος εἰς αἰῶνα κ. ἐξ αἰῶνος). W. neg. foll. ἐκ τοῦ αἰῶνος οὐκ ἠκούσθη never has it been heard J 9:32.
ⓑ of time to come which, if it has no end, is also known as eternity (so commonly in Gk. lit. Pla. et al.); εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα (since Isocr. 10, 62, also Diod S 1, 56, 1 εἰς τ. αἰ.=εἰς ἅπαντα τ. χρόνον; 4, 1, 4; SIG 814, 49 and OGI index VIII; POxy 41, 30=‘Long live the Caesars’; PGM 8, 33; 4, 1051 [εἰς αἰ.]; LXX; En 12:6; 102:3; PsSol 2:34, 37; ParJer 8:5; JosAs 15:3 εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα χρόνον 4:10 al. Jos., Ant. 7, 356 [εἰς αἰ.]) to eternity, eternally, in perpetuity: live J 6:51, 58; B 6:3; remain J 8:35ab; 12:34; 2 Cor 9:9 (Ps 111:9); 1 Pt 1:23 v.l., 25 (Is 40:8); 1J 2:17; 2J 2; be with someone J 14:16. Be priest Hb 5:6; 6:20; 7:17, 21, 24, 28 (each Ps 109:4). Darkness reserved Jd 13. W. neg.=never, not at all, never again (Ps 124:1; Ezk 27:36 al.) Mt 21:19; Mk 3:29; 11:14; 1 Cor 8:13. ἕως αἰῶνος (LXX) 1 Cl 10:4 (Gen 13:15); Hv 2, 3, 3; Hs 9, 24, 4. In Johannine usage the term is used formulaically without emphasis on eternity (Lackeit [s. 4 below] 32f): never again thirst J 4:14; never see death 8:51f; cp. 11:26; never be lost 10:28; never (= by no means) 13:8. εἰς τὸν αἰ. τοῦ αἰῶνος (Ps 44:18; 82:18 al.) Hb 1:8 (Ps 44:7). ἕως αἰῶνος (LXX; PsSol 18:11) Lk 1:55 v.l. (for εἰς τὸν αἰ.); εἰς ἡμέραν αἰῶνος 2 Pt 3:18.—The pl. is also used (Emped., Fgm. 129, 6 αἰῶνες=generations; Theocr. 16, 43 μακροὺς αἰῶνας=long periods of time; Philod. περὶ θεῶν 3 Fgm. 84; Sext. Emp., Phys. 1, 62 εἰς αἰῶνας διαμένει; SibOr 3, 767; LXX, En; TestAbr B 7 p. 112, 3 [Stone p. 72].—B-D-F §141, 1), esp. in doxologies: εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας (Ps 60:5; 76:8) Mt 6:13 v.l.; Lk 1:33 (cp. Wsd 3:8); Hb 13:8. εἰς πάντας τοὺς αἰ. (Tob 13:4; Da 3:52b; En 9:4; SibOr 3, 50) Jd 25b. εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας to all eternity (cp. Ps 88:53) Ro 1:25; 9:5; 2 Cor 11:31. αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰ. Ro 11:36; ᾧ κτλ. 16:27 (v.l. αὐτῷ). τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰ. 1 Pt 5:11; more fully εἰς τοὺς αἰ. τῶν αἰώνων (Ps 83:5; GrBar 17:4; PGM 4, 1038; 22b, 15) for evermore in doxologies Ro 16:27 v.l.; Gal 1:5; Phil 4:20; 1 Ti 1:17; 2 Ti 4:18; Hb 13:21; 1 Pt 4:11; 5:11 v.l.; Rv 1:6, 18; 5:13; 7:12; 11:15 al. 1 Cl 20:12; 32:4; 38:4; 43:6; εἰς πάσας τὰς γενεὰς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰ. Eph 3:21 (cp. Tob 1:4; 13:12; En 103:4; 104:5). Of God ὁ ζῶν εἰς τοὺς αἰ. (cp. Tob 13:2; Sir 18:1; Da 6:27 Theod.) Rv 4:9f; 10:6; 15:7; formulaically=eternal 14:11; 19:3; 20:10; 22:5.—κατὰ πρόθεσιν τῶν αἰώνων according to the eternal purpose Eph 3:11. All-inclusive ἀπὸ αἰώνων καὶ εἰς τ. αἰῶνας from (past) eternity to (future) eternity B 18:2 (cp. Ps 40:14 and Ps.-Aristot., De Mundo 7, 401a, 16 ἐξ αἰῶνος ἀτέρμονος εἰς ἕτερον αἰῶνα; M. Ant. 9, 28, 1 ἐξ αἰῶνος εἰς αἰῶνα; SibOr Fgm. 1, 16 of God μόνος εἰς αἰῶνα κ. ἐξ αἰῶνος).
② a segment of time as a particular unit of history, age
ⓐ ὁ αἰὼν οὗτος (הָעוֹלָם הַזֶּה) the present age (nearing its end) (Orig., C. Cels. 1, 13, 15, in ref. to 1 Cor 3:18; s. Bousset, Rel. 243ff; Dalman, Worte 120ff; Schürer II 537f; NMessel, D. Einheitlichkeit d. jüd. Eschatol. 1915, 44–60) contrasted w. the age to come (Philo and Joseph. do not have the two aeons) Mt 12:32. A time of sin and misery Hv 1, 1, 8; Hs 3:1ff; ending of Mk in the Freer ms. 2; ἡ μέριμνα τοῦ αἰ. (v.l. + τούτου) the cares of the present age Mt 13:22; pl. cp. Mk 4:19. πλοῦτος earthly riches Hv 3, 6, 5. ματαιώματα vain, futile things Hm 9:4; Hs 5, 3, 6. πραγματεῖαι m 10, 1, 4. ἐπιθυμία m 11:8; Hs 6, 2, 3; 7:2; 8, 11, 3. πονηρία Hs 6, 1, 4. ἀπάται Hs 6, 3, 3 v.l. οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ αἰ. τούτου the children of this age, the people of the world (opp. children of light, enlightened ones) Lk 16:8; 20:34.—The earthly kingdoms βασιλεῖαι τοῦ αἰ. τούτου IRo 6:1. συσχηματίζεσθαι τῷ αἰ. τούτῳ be conformed to this world Ro 12:2. As well as everything non-Christian, it includes the striving after worldly wisdom: συζητητὴς τοῦ αἰ. τούτου searcher after the wisdom of this world 1 Cor 1:20. σοφία τοῦ αἰ. τούτου 2:6. ἐν τῷ αἰ. τούτῳ 3:18 prob. belongs to what precedes=those who consider themselves wise in this age must become fools (in the estimation of this age). The ruler of this age is the devil: ὁ θεὸς τοῦ αἰ. τούτου 2 Cor 4:4 (θεός 5). ἄρχων τοῦ αἰ. τούτου IEph 17:1; 19:1; IMg 1:3; ITr 4:2; IRo 7:1; IPhld 6:2; his subordinate spirits are the ἄρχοντες τοῦ αἰ. τούτου 1 Cor 2:6, 8 (ἄρχων 1c).—Also ὁ νῦν αἰών (Did., Gen. 148, 21): πλούσιοι ἐν τῷ νῦν αἰ. 1 Ti 6:17; ἀγαπᾶν τὸν νῦν αἰ. 2 Ti 4:10; Pol 9:2. Cp. Tit 2:12. Or (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 42, 30) ὁ αἰ. ὁ ἐνεστώς the present age Gal 1:4 (cp. SIG 797, 9 [37 a.d.] αἰῶνος νῦν ἐνεστῶτος). The end of this period (cp. SibOr 3, 756 μέχρι τέρματος αἰῶνος) συντέλεια (τοῦ) αἰ. Mt 13:39f, 49; 24:3; 28:20 (cp. TestJob 4:6; TestBenj 11:3; JRobinson, Texts and Studies V introd. 86). συντέλεια τῶν αἰ. Hb 9:26; on GMary 463, 1 s. καιρός end.
ⓑ ὁ αἰὼν μέλλων (הָעוֹלָם הַבָּא) the age to come, the Messianic period (on the expr. cp. Demosth. 18, 199; Hippocr., Ep. 10, 6 ὁ μ. αἰ.=the future, all future time; Ael. Aristid. 46 p. 310 D.: ἡ τοῦ παρελθόντος χρόνου μνεία κ. ὁ τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος λόγος; Jos., Ant. 18, 287; Ar. 15, 3; Orig., C. Cels. 8, 24, 20; Did., Gen. 164, 2) in 2 Cl 6:3, cp. Hs 4:2ff, opposed to the αἰὼν οὗτος both in time and quality, cp. Mt 12:32; Eph 1:21; δυνάμεις μέλλοντος αἰ. Hb 6:5. Also αἰ. ἐκεῖνος: τοῦ αἰ. ἐκείνου τυχεῖν take part in the age to come Lk 20:35. ὁ αἰ. ὁ ἐρχόμενος Mk 10:30; Lk 18:30; Hs 4:2, 8. ὁ αἰ. ὁ ἐπερχόμενος Hv 4, 3, 5: pl. ἐν τοῖς αἰῶσιν τοῖς ἐπερχομένοις in the ages to come Eph 2:7. As a holy age ὁ ἅγιος αἰ. (opp. οὗτος ὁ κόσμος; cp. εἰς τὸν μείζονα αἰ. TestJob 47:3) B 10:11 and as a time of perfection αἰ. ἀλύπητος an age free from sorrow 2 Cl 19:4 (cp. αἰ. … τοῦ ἀπαραλλάκτου TestJob 33:5), while the present αἰών is an ‘aeon of pain’ (Slav. Enoch 65, 8).—The plurals 1 Cor 10:11 have been explained by some as referring to both ages, i.e. the end-point of the first and beginning of the second; this view urges that the earliest Christians believed that the two ages came together during their own lifetimes: we, upon whom the ends of the ages have come (JWeiss. A Greek would not refer to the beginning as τέλος. The Gordian knot has οὔτε τέλος οὔτε ἀρχή: Arrian, Anab. 2, 3, 7). But since τὰ τέλη can also mean ‘end’ in the singular (Ael. Aristid. 44, 17 K.=17 p. 406 D.: σώματος ἀρχαὶ κ. τέλη=‘beginning and end’; 39 p. 737 D.: τὰ τέλη … δράματος; Longus 1, 23, 1 ms. ἦρος τέλη; Vi. Thu. 2, 2 [=OxfT ΘΟΥΚΥΔΙΔΟΥ ΒΙΟΣ 2] τέλη τοῦ πολέμου; Aëtius, Eye Diseases p. 120, 25 Hirschb. after Galen: τὰ τέλη τ. λόγου=the close of the section; Philo, Virt. 182) and, on the other hand, the pl. αἰῶνες is often purely formal (s. above 1a and b, 2a at end) τὰ τέλη τῶν αἰ. can perh. be regarded as equal to τέλος αἰώνων (SibOr 8, 311)=the end of the age(s). Cp. TestLevi 14:1 ἐπὶ τὰ τέλη τῶν αἰώνων.—For the essential equivalence of sing. and pl. cp. Maximus Tyr. 14, 8b τὰ τῆς κολακείας τέλη beside τέλος τῆς σπουδῆς. Cp. also τέλος 5.
③ the world as a spatial concept, the world (αἰ. in sg. and pl. [B-D-F §141, 1]: Hippocr., Ep. 17, 34; Diod S 1, 1, 3 God rules ἅπαντα τὸν αἰῶνα; Ael. Aristid. 20, 13 K.=21 p. 434 D.: ἐκ τοῦ παντὸς αἰῶνος; Maximus Tyr. 11, 5e; IAndrosIsis, Cyrene 4 [103 a.d.] P. p. 129]; Ps 65:7; Ex 15:18 [cp. Philo, Plant. 47; 51]; Wsd 13:9; 14:6; 18:4; αἰῶνες οἱ κρείττονε Tat. 20:2) ApcPt 4:14. Created by God through the Son Hb 1:2; through God’s word 11:3. Hence God is βασιλεὺς τῶν αἰ. 1 Ti 1:17; Rv 15:3 (v.l. for ἐθνῶν); 1 Cl 61:2 (cp. PGM 12, 247 αἰώνων βασιλεῦ; Tob 13:7, 11, cp. AcPh 2 and 11 [Aa II/2, 2, 20 and 6, 9]); πατὴρ τῶν αἰ. 35:3 (cp. Just., A I, 41, 2; AcPh 144 [Aa II/2, 84, 9]); θεὸς τῶν αἰ. 55:6 (cp. Sir 36:17; ὁ θεὸς τοῦ αἰ.; En 1:4; PGM 4, 1163; TSchermann, Griech. Zauber-pap 1909, 23; AcJ 82 [Aa II/1, 191, 24f]). But many of these pass. may belong under 2.
④ the Aeon as a person, the Aeon (Rtzst., Erlösungsmyst. 268 index under Aion, Taufe 391 index; Epict. 2, 5, 13 οὐ γάρ εἰμι αἰών, ἀλλʼ ἄνθρωπος=I am not a being that lasts forever, but a human being [and therefore I know that whatever is must pass away]; Mesomedes 1, 17=Coll. Alex. p. 197, 17; Simplicius in Epict. p. 81, 15 οἱ αἰῶνες beside the μήτηρ τῆς ζωῆς and the δημιουργός; En 9:4 κύριος τ. κυρίων καὶ θεὸς τ. θεῶν κ. βασιλεὺς τ. αἰώνων; PGM 4, 520; 1169; 2198; 2314; 3168; 5, 468; AcPh 132 [Aa II/2, 63, 5]; Kephal. I p. 24, 6; 45, 7) ὁ αἰ. τοῦ κόσμου τούτου Eph 2:2. The secret hidden from the Aeons Col 1:26; Eph 3:9 (Rtzst., Erlösungsmyst. 235f); IEph 19:2 (Rtzst. 86, 3); cp. 8:1 (Rtzst. 236, 2). Various other meanings have been suggested for these passages.—CLackeit, Aion I, diss. Königsbg. 1916; EBurton, ICC Gal 1921, 426–32; HJunker, Iran. Quellen d. hellenist. Aionvorstellung: Vortr. d. Bibl. Warburg I 1923, 125ff; ENorden, D. Geburt des Kindes 1924; MZepf, D. Gott Αιων in d. hellenist. Theologie: ARW 25, 1927, 225–44; ANock, HTR 27, 1934, 78–99=Essays I, ’72, 377–96; RLöwe, Kosmos u. Aion ’35; EOwen, αἰών and αἰώνιος: JTS 37, ’36, 265–83; 390–404; EJenni, Das Wort ʿōlām im AT: ZAW 64, ’52, 197–248; 65, ’53, 1–35; KDeichgräber, RGG I3 193–95; HSasse, RAC I 193–204; MNilsson, Die Rel. in den gr. Zauberpapyri, K. humanist. Vetenskapssamfundets Lund II ’47/48, 81f; GJennings, A Survey of αιων and αιωνιος and their meaning in the NT, ’48; GStadtmüller, Aion: Saeculum 2, ’51, 315–20 (lit.); EDegani, ΑΙΩΝ da Omero ad Aristotele ’61 (s. Classen, Gnomon 34, ’62, 366–70; D.’s reply in RivFil 91, ’63, 104–10); MTreu, Griech. Ewigkeitswörter, Glotta 43, ’65, 1–24; JBarr, Biblical Words for Time2 ’69; OCullman, Christus u. die Zeit3 ’62.—B. 13. EDNT. DDD s.v. Aion. DELG. M-M. TW. Sv.
[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 32–33). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

 

[Hmm]

A rather factually sparse response.

Well, as you invariably say, your facts are facts and mine are nonsense, so there's no point in repeating my rubbish.

 

[Saint Steven]

I have made an informed choice to revere the Father as Holy as well as Loving with the prerogative to express Wrath in Justice.

Can you explain why Universalism falls outside of those parameters? (since you made an informed choice)

 

[Hmm]

Can you explain why Universalism falls outside of those parameters? (since you made an informed choice)

You made a telling point by bringing up the idea of making an informed choice and how important that is. I've read a few testimonies now, and posted one of them in this thread, of infernalists who reflected on the dubious foundations of ECT and embraced universalism.

I find it impossible to imagine this going in the other direction and a universalist making a considered move from UR to ECT. I'd be interested if anyone is able provide even a single testimony where this has happened.

 

[Der Alte]

Well, as you invariably say, your facts are facts and mine are nonsense, so there's no point in repeating my rubbish.

When Jesus called Herod a fox was he actually, literally a fox? When Jesus called Simon, Petros was he actually literally a stone? When Jesus called James and John sons of thunder were they actually literally sons of thunder? That is a figure of speech not meant to be taken literally?
Lets us take a look at the word "aionios" does it mean "a finite age" or "eternal?"
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is correctly translated eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is correctly translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
Jesus used "ainios" in ten verses where He defined/described it as "eternal"/"everlasting"
Luke 1:33, John 6:58, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 3:36, John 4:14, John 6:27, John 8:51.
Please feel free to try to disprove my conclusions. "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh!" establishes nothing.

 

[Hmm]

Please feel free to try to disprove my conclusions. "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh!" establishes nothing.

I and others have already explained what aionios means and you have dismissed it all as nonsense, so there's no point in saying it all over again.

There's also very little point in me keep repeating that there's no point in me repeating myself to you. I can see myself repeating that too so I'd better quit now.

 

[Saint Steven]

You made a telling point by bringing up the idea of making an informed choice and how important that is. I've read a few testimonies now, and posted one of them in this thread, of infernalists who reflected on the dubious foundations of ECT and embraced universalism.

I find it impossible to imagine this going in the other direction and a universalist making a considered move from UR to ECT. I'd be interested if anyone is able provide even a single testimony where this has happened.

I remember my experience of making an informed choice.

I was open initially, but wanted proof. If there was a way to have a faith with no forever burning hell, I wanted to know about it. I had a lot of the same questions and gave a lot of the same rebuttals against it. I had to be brought up short so that I would quit fighting it and actually do my homework. (making an informed choice) So, I began reading The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby. And came back with some reasonable questions, based on the reading. (link to the book below)

Then something extraordinary happened. I began to see holes in the arguments against UR. I was posting replies in defense of UR. Which even surprised me. At that point, I was all in. Then I really hit the books, and never looked back. No regrets.

Bottom line: I would rather be a Christian Universalist and be wrong, than an Infernalist and be right. I'll be happy to apologize to God for holding his character in such high regard if I am wrong.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[Saint Steven]

I and others have already explained what aionios means and you have dismissed it all as nonsense, so there's no point in saying it all over again.

There's also very little point in me keep repeating that there's no point in me repeating myself to you. I can see myself repeating that too so I'd better quit now.

Interesting that the discussion of UR is met with so much rancor. They will fight tooth and nail to keep their forever burning hell. Makes no sense.

 

[Saint Steven]

Let me know what you think about the article.

cc: @Carl Emerson

Well, for starters, the UR view of God is not some new creation based on current thought. The UR view of God came from the early church, from orthodoxy. Mostly from the Eastern/Greek church. So, it is rather surprising to see an article like this in an Orthodox journal.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Can you explain why Universalism falls outside of those parameters? (since you made an informed choice)

My entrance into this discussion was to make sure the character of God was represented in a balanced way and to make sure that scripture was being respected.

I think that if these two are in place the issue of universalism solves very quickly.

To suggest that translations across the board are in error opens the door to all sorts of rabbit holes and as DA mentioned the Mormons and JW's are good examples. of exactly this.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Interesting that the discussion of UR is met with so much rancor. They will fight tooth and nail to keep their forever burning hell. Makes no sense.

What you claim totally misses the point.

It isnt a matter of fighting for a forever burning hell - it is a matter of remaining faithful to scripture and letting God be God - then the matter settles very quick.

 

[Der Alte]

I and others have already explained what aionios means and you have dismissed it all as nonsense, so there's no point in saying it all over again.
There's also very little point in me keep repeating that there's no point in me repeating myself to you. I can see myself repeating that too so I'd better quit now.

"Others" have been giving me their unsupported opinions of what "aionios" "really means," right here on this forum, for more than 2 decades. But those explanations are very lacking in credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, lexical evidence.
The UR position can be summed up as "God is good, loving, merciful etc. I think 'eternal punishment' is terrible and a loving, merciful etc. God would not do something so horrible."
Was Jesus lying when He said "aionios life" means "never perishing" life, twice?
Origen, is the defacto ECF poster boy for UR here is his description of "aionios".

(59) He [Heracleon] is not wrong, however, when he says that the water that the Savior gives is of his spirit and power.
(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.
(61) He would be correct when he grants that the first life perishes if he meant that life which is according to the letter, when it seeks and discovers the life according to the Spirit by the removal of the veil.
Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 67–69). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press​

Note, Origen says that eternal life "never perishes," twice, "remains,""not to be taken away,""nor is it consumed..."
This document is still in copyright and is not in the public domain. But here is a quote from Origen's writings available online.

Origen De Principiis Book III.Chap I
6. But, according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou art treasuring up for thyself wrath on the day of judgment and of the revelation of the just judgment of God, who will render
to every one according to his work: to those who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and immortality, eternal life;38[Rom 2:7]
13. Nay, the very fact that He is long-suffering conduces to the advantage of those very persons, since the soul over which He exercises this providential care is immortal; and, as being immortal and everlasting, it is not, although not immediately cared for, excluded from salvation, which is postponed to a more convenient time.​

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I remember my experience of making an informed choice.

I was open initially, but wanted proof. If there was a way to have a faith with no forever burning hell, I wanted to know about it. I had a lot of the same questions and gave a lot of the same rebuttals against it. I had to be brought up short so that I would quit fighting it and actually do my homework. (making an informed choice) So, I began reading The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby. And came back with some reasonable questions, based on the reading. (link to the book below)

Then something extraordinary happened. I began to see holes in the arguments against UR. I was posting replies in defense of UR. Which even surprised me. At that point, I was all in. Then I really hit the books, and never looked back. No regrets.

Bottom line: I would rather be a Christian Universalist and be wrong, than an Infernalist and be right. I'll be happy to apologize to God for holding his character in such high regard if I am wrong.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

It would be so great if Elby didn't attempt to speak 'for' me in laying out his version of an "annihilationist" view point:

The "annihilationist" has another scheme. He is going to have a few men of his own persuasion to be saved, and then after such-and-such has happened, all the rest of mankind are to be simply blotted out of existence. They will simply cease to exist! That is his idea of the penalty for sin. To the annihilationist the wages of sin is ETERNAL DEATH. But that is not what the Word says! The Bible nowhere speaks of "eternal death." God did not say to Adam, "In the day that you eat thereof you shall surely eternally die." The record does not state that "the wages of sin is eternal death." It does not say that "the soul that sins, it shall die forever." To the contrary, it points to the END of death for "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is DEATH" (I Cor. 15:26), and the beloved apostle John, banished to the barren Isle of Patmos for the Word of God heard a great voice out of heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He shall dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be NO MORE DEATH ... for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:3-4). But again, if the wages of sin were utter annihilation, or eternal death, then there is no hope for anyone. For Jesus was not annihilated! He did not stay dead for ever! If annihilation is the penalty for sin, then every son of Adam, saved or lost, must yet suffer his own penalty and be blotted out of existence for evermore. Then Jesus never saved anyone from anything. And then we all might as well enjoy this world to the full; for it is the only life and existence that any of us will ever know!
​

I don't appreciate this snarky and presumptuous attitude of his, nor the fact that he uses "US vs. THEM" language. I find this kind of crap language very tiring, especially when it seems to be used as a kind of verbal enema for a "harlot church," such as Elby designates and specifies here in this book of his you've posted, Steven.

Surely, with all of the study you say you've been doing, you can give us better than this 'thing' that is chock-full of partial truths, equivocations, exaggerations, over-done rationalizations, non-sequiturs and hubris.

Is this Elby guy even a Hebrew and Greek scholar?