Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Fervent]

Correct, but you miss the point. I did understand the principles behind the Food Laws, given the knowledge of nutrition I received in the SDA church...which most folks miss. I did see a problem with what was done with the text of the Bible in regard to the establishment of ECT, although I do indeed lack the credentials to fully articulate my position. I also reject the authority of your "three irrefutable Jewish sources." I don't care what the Jews believed about the afterlife anymore than I care what the bulk of Christians care. Carefully explain to me over and over, but I don't think that it's my head in the sand.

Food laws aren't about nutrition.

 

[Der Alte]

Correct, but you miss the point. I did understand the principles behind the Food Laws, given the knowledge of nutrition I received in the SDA church...which most folks miss. I did see a problem with what was done with the text of the Bible in regard to the establishment of ECT, although I do indeed lack the credentials to fully articulate my position. I also reject the authority of your "three irrefutable Jewish sources." I don't care what the Jews believed about the afterlife anymore than I care what the bulk of Christians care. Carefully explain to me over and over, but I don't think that it's my head in the sand.

Well I have been posting my three Jewish sources for at least 2 decades and it has rarely been addressed but never refuted. I must be right but I changed it since some people become completely unglued when they read it. My quotes cannot be refuted because all three are Jewish sources relating what the Jews themselves believed about hell. Who in the world could possibly have the knowledge to contradict the Jews on what they believed historically? Nobody that I can think of. And not no body, not no how has ever even tried.
A lot of folks have that patellar reflex response "I don't care what the Jews believed." Without even trying to comprehend why I say what I do.
One of the major pushbacks on "hell" in the N.T. "It was copied from Dante's Inferno" and other such nonsense.

 

[Hillsage]

Here's an observation I would appreciate your commentary on.

There's a BIG difference between "a grave" and "THE grave". The term "a grave" being a hole in the ground, and the term "THE grave" referring to Hades. The creed speaks of Jesus being raised from THE grave, not a grave. Besides, he was laid in an ABOVE ground tomb, his "burial" was not in the ground.

Well, My first thought is "The Creed" isn't 'the bible'......

Personally I see no difference between "a grave" and "the grave" or "a tomb" or "the tomb". I think that "the grave" is simply suggestive of all the 'graves' that bodies went into. It's the process the body undergoes is what matters, as it will 'in nature' undergo decay. Matters not if the place of interment is the ocean, the dirt or a flaming pyre. All lead to fulfilling of the curse of Genesis for sin. That curse was sin leads to (first) soul death then ultimately physical death and its returning to the physical 'dust' from which we all 'originally' came from.

EZE 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins shall die.
HIS souls! Not the devil's????

JAM 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death.
Does full-grown sin end in body death?


Probably been said before, in this mega post, but there was a saying in the old days which said; "It's time to HELL the potatoes.", during planting season and during the winter for storage.

So, Steve; in older days, when they said; It's time to hell the potatoes." Did those potatoes go to 'a grave' or 'the grave'?

 

[Hillsage]

Just an update: I'm really starting to see the whole "What's not to like?" thing! I'm currently working on a theology that will combine Infant Baptism with Once Saved Always Saved and Universalism. I kind of see Benny Hinn heading it up, but I'm open to other ideas. I haven't nailed down the name of the church yet, but my wife suggested "The Church of Not Exactly Christianity."

You're too late IRKLE, Martin Luther beat you. I hope to God you're in his church. I was, for 2 years.

I'd like something more positive, perhaps "The Church You Can Join Even After You're Dead." Anyway, I'm probably jumping the gun, but I'm excited enough that I've already ordered matching Land Rovers for me and the Mrs.

Problem again. That church is on every street corner today. Come "dead in trespasses and sins" JOIN. Warm a pew and die religiously indoctrinated.

 

[Der Alte]

* * *

Probably been said before, in this mega post, but there was a saying in the old days which said; "It's time to HELL the potatoes.", during planting season and during the winter for storage. So, Steve; in older days, when they said; It's time to hell the potatoes." Did those potatoes go to 'a grave' or 'the grave'?

Even if true, which I doubt, that is the lexical etymological fallacy. What a word might have meant on another continent, 100s of years ago is largely irrelevant. The only people I have ever found who propagate this are members of certain religious groups on forums like this.
Even in English words have changed meaning over time. "Cool" and "heavy" come to mind. These words are often are used where they have nothing to do with temperature or weight.
When we see/hear the word "truck" nobody thinks about "vegetables" the original meaning.

 

[Hillsage]

I did not intend that reference to support any particular exegesis, and certainly not one that rejected the idea of Gehenna as punishment. I cited it in a discussion of translations, as a summary of what the original terms were and how how translations handle them. I've said clearly that Gehenna in the NT does not mean a garbage dump.

May be of interest;
"Some archaeologists speculate that the Molech idol in Gei Ben Hinnom was equipped with outstretched, cantilevered arms that extended a small platform upon which the innocent baby was tied. Slowly the platform would swivel toward the consuming flames as the baby shrieked in helpless agony. No wonder this most hideous place is the focus of so much biblical wrath: "He defiled Tophet, which is in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, so that no one would make a son or a daughter pass through fire as an offering to Molech" (II Kings 23:10)."

Don't know if that's any truer or more false than other things I've heard. For example, here we are 2,000 years later and I've heard that today, that 'place' is a subdivision of a much larger Jerusalem, than it was two millennia ago.

 

[Saint Steven]

Its starts with talking about eternity, your readiness to meet your maker...

Okay, that's a bit vague. (understandably)
Let's try a bit of role playing. (if you are game)
I'll be the seeker, you be the counselor.
What can you tell me about eternity, and my readiness to meet my maker?

Let's say I have no background in religion whatsoever. I was not raised in the church, but want to know about it. I have a friend that is a Christian, who invited me to church.

 

[Der Alte]

May be of interest;
"Some archaeologists speculate that the Molech idol in Gei Ben Hinnom was equipped with outstretched, cantilevered arms that extended a small platform upon which the innocent baby was tied. Slowly the platform would swivel toward the consuming flames as the baby shrieked in helpless agony. No wonder this most hideous place is the focus of so much biblical wrath: "He defiled Tophet, which is in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, so that no one would make a son or a daughter pass through fire as an offering to Molech" (II Kings 23:10)."

Don't know if that's any truer or more false than other things I've heard. For example, here we are 2,000 years later and I've heard that today, that 'place' is a subdivision of a much larger Jerusalem, than it was two millennia ago.

One online representation of what Molech was believed to look like.

 

[Hillsage]

Even if true, which I doubt, that is the lexical etymological fallacy. What a word might have meant on another continent, 100s of years ago is largely irrelevant.

And yet, here we are arguing… Or should I say, studying what “words meant” 2,000 years ago “on another continent”…… ironic?​

The only people I have ever found who propagate this are members of certain religious groups on forums like this.

Since I still practice, this is the only forum I am on. And honestly that’s why I’ve seldom been here in these last Covid times. Trying to find God’s TRUE interest for me concerning “the governments of man” as opposed to pursuing “his kingdom on earth” has been time consuming. Filtering through ‘false Healthcare’ and ‘false prophets’ leaves those who are ‘woke’ fighting with those who are ‘awakened’ which is another thread here, I’m sure. I minister in the world and the church, and just come here to play with his kids, myself being one.

Even in English words have changed meaning over time. "Cool" and "heavy" come to mind. These words are often are used where they have nothing to do with temperature or weight.

Yes, I know. I once was tough, but then became tuff. Or was I vice versa??? I don’t remember.

When we see/hear the word "truck" nobody thinks about "vegetables" the original meaning.

Yes, that is the exact same point I was making concerning the word Hell. A word which never existed until a couple hundred years ago, let alone 2,000 years ago. And now we have the difficulty of TWO different Greek words AND a Hebrew word, all from antiquity. Therein lies ‘our’ dilemma, ‘in part’ anyway.

 

[Hillsage]

One online representation of what Molech was believed to look like.
View attachment 310214

As pertaining to the ‘topic of discussion’ what I find of importance is the fact that God thought pretty lowly of those who would torture their children with fire.

Lev 18:21 And you shall not let any of your seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shall you profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.

FOR ME, I see “seed” as meaning His Un-awakened spirit in every man also. And I take “profaning His name” as accusing Him of being like Molech to His Seed.

Your life application thought on this verse?

 

[John Mullally]

Okay, that's a bit vague. (understandably)
Let's try a bit of role playing. (if you are game)
I'll be the seeker, you be the counselor.
What can you tell me about eternity, and my readiness to meet my maker?

Let's say I have no background in religion whatsoever. I was not raised in the church, but want to know about it. I have a friend that is a Christian, who invited me to church.

Sermons vary and are almost always practical, directed to believers, and Bible backed - there's rarely anything said that touches on politics, Eschatology, arguments of Law vs Faith/Grace, and identification of cults. Even if you know little about Christianity you get a taste of the relationship between the Lord and his body from the sermon and worship. If a call to salvation is given at the end, they do stress that our relationship with the Lord is established here on earth before death and that we decide what that will be now and for eternity (in His presence or separated from Him). Counsellors spend a time with the new believer or backslider. They go over what was said, answer questions, ask for contact info, provide "new believer" literature, and tell them about classes and cell groups.

Keep in mind this is in answer to St. Stephen's question. I am not telling anyone how their Pastor should be conducting services.

 

[Der Alte]

* * *

And yet, here we are arguing… Or should I say, studying what “words meant” 2,000 years ago “on another continent”…… ironic?

I am not aware of any other English word in the Bible about which different factions are arguing what it "might" have meant in a third country. Which even if true is irrelevant.
The only other words I am aware of that are disputed are "aionios" and "kolasis." To some groups, with zero lexical, historical support, "aionios kolasis" supposedly mean the nonsensical phrase "age during" and "correction" rather than "eternal punishment" as they are translated in the EOB. Note in this "interpretation" an adjective "aionios" is changed into a preposition and a noun. I guess somebody couldn't find an adjective that says what they want it to.

Since I still practice, this is the only forum I am on. And honestly that’s why I’ve seldom been here in these last Covid times. Trying to find God’s TRUE interest for me concerning “the governments of man” as opposed to pursuing “his kingdom on earth” has been time consuming. Filtering through ‘false Healthcare’ and ‘false prophets’ leaves those who are ‘woke’ fighting with those who are ‘awakened’ which is another thread here, I’m sure. I minister in the world and the church, and just come here to play with his kids, myself being one.

I am retired X3 so this is more or less my full time activity.

Yes, that is the exact same point I was making concerning the word Hell. A word which never existed until a couple hundred years ago, let alone 2,000 years ago. And now we have the difficulty of TWO different Greek words AND a Hebrew word, all from antiquity. Therein lies ‘our’ dilemma, ‘in part’ anyway.

Your argument is a non-sequitur. What difference does it make? None of the English words in the Bible existed 2,000 years +/-. In the Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna article I have posted numerous times the Jewish scholars who compiled it did not have any problem equating "hell" with both "sheol" and "Ge Hinnom." "Sheol" and "Ge Hinnom." are written as "Hades" and "Gehenna," in both the 225 BC LXX and the New Testament.

 

[Der Alte]

***

As pertaining to the ‘topic of discussion’ what I find of importance is the fact that God thought pretty lowly of those who would torture their children with fire.
Lev 18:21 And you shall not let any of your seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shall you profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.
FOR ME, I see “seed” as meaning His Un-awakened spirit in every man also. And I take “profaning His name” as accusing Him of being like Molech to His Seed.
Your life application thought on this verse?

As the image shows the Jews were sacrificing their children, i.e. their seed, to a pagan deity a blatant violation of the commandments.

Genesis 4:25
25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
Genesis 15:13
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
Genesis 17:10
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
= = = = =
Exodus 20:3-5
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;​

 

[Saint Steven]

Sermons vary and are almost always practical, directed to believers, and Bible backed - there's rarely anything said that touches on politics, Eschatology, arguments of Law vs Faith/Grace, and identification of cults. Even if you know little about Christianity you get a taste of the relationship between the Lord and his body from the sermon and worship. If a call to salvation is given at the end, they do stress that our relationship with the Lord is established here on earth before death and that we decide what that will be now and for eternity (in His presence or separated from Him). Counsellors spend a time with the new believer or backslider. They go over what was said, answer questions, ask for contact info, provide "new believer" literature, and tell them about classes and cell groups.

Keep in mind this is in answer to St. Stephen's question. I am not telling anyone how their Pastor should be conducting services.

Thanks.
As the seeker in this discussion, I want to know what you mean when you say "separated from God"? Does that mean burning in hell?

(seems like you are soft-pedaling, or sugar-coating the issue)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Okay, that's a bit vague. (understandably)
Let's try a bit of role playing. (if you are game)
I'll be the seeker, you be the counselor.
What can you tell me about eternity, and my readiness to meet my maker?

Let's say I have no background in religion whatsoever. I was not raised in the church, but want to know about it. I have a friend that is a Christian, who invited me to church.

 

[Hillsage]

Let m

As the image shows the Jews were sacrificing their children, i.e. their seed, to a pagan deity a blatant violation of the commandments.

Genesis 4:25
25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
Genesis 15:13
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
Genesis 17:10
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
= = = = =
Exodus 20:3-5
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;​

Let me re-quote my post, reiterating the most important thing "AS PERTAINING TO THE TOPIC OF DISCUSSION" which is ETERNAL HELL, and your "LIFE APPLICATION" thought on this verse? That is what I asked for? Mine is 'bolded now' in the quote right below the verse.

I quote;
"As pertaining to the ‘topic of discussion’ what I find of importance is the fact that God thought pretty lowly of those who would torture their children with fire.

Lev 18:21 And you shall not let any of your seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shall you profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.

FOR ME, I see “seed” as meaning His Un-awakened spirit in every man also. And I take “profaning His name” as accusing Him of being like Molech to His Seed.

Your life application thought on this verse?"
End quote

 

[ozso]

How about this? Criticize all your want but you cannot disprove anything in this post.
…..According to these three sources, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which are translated Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

[Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA]

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3]pre-Christianity Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

That doesn't have anything to do with English translations of the Bible

 

[ozso]

Of course you don't see any continuity because you didn't even look. You saw what you wanted to see only what lines up with you UR assumptions/presuppositions.

The way you put people down is appalling. What makes you think anyone would want to read what you have to say when you start out by insulting them?

​

 

[Der Alte]

That doesn't have anything to do with English translations of the Bible

Are you paying attention? My response did not have to refer anything to do with English translations. This is the post I was replying to.

"I don't care what word is used, just as long as it conveys the correct description, meaning and image of what's behind [sic]talked about. Most people are going to see flames and pitchforks when the see the world hell or hades."​

According to my 3 ignored sources the words used by the Jewish Encyclopedia refer to a place of eternal fiery punishment which the Jews called "sheol" and "Ge Hinnom" written respectively in the 225 BC LXX and the NT as "hades" and "Gehenna."

 

[Hillsage]

That doesn't have anything to do with English translations of the Bible

His Jewish authorities don't have anything to do with what the JEWS believed millenia before either. The influence of the Scribes and Sadducces on his Jewish thinking sources were Hellenized long before. Correct Jewish thinking was being corrupted for 400 years since GOD QUIT SPEAKING through His prophets. Scribes and Sadducces weren't even mentioned in the OT.

 

[Der Alte]

The way you put people down is appalling. What makes you think anyone would want to read what you have to say when you start out by insulting them?

Au contraire mon frere. Patrick Swayze in "Road House" had a line I appropriated, "I always play nice until it is time to not play nice and the other party always decides when that is.