Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Hmm]

Purgatory for all, not just the Catholics!

"What do we want? Expiatory purification! When do we want it? Later!"

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I do but not the jesus of UR-ites. I rejoice in the Jesus who said "Not everyone who says Lord, Lord to me will enter the kingdom of Heaven." Not the UR Jesus who will let people live like the devil, die in their sins and go to heaven anyway.

Therein lies the problem, der Alte. In the land of the blind, the one eyed man may be king. But Jesus gives us both eyes to see with.

 

[Major1]

That's funny, because that's just how Richie figured it. Imagine how surprised he was to find the table had been turned.



I hope by now he's come to his senses, confessed his sins from the heart and called on Jesus.



So you declined fries with that salvation.

BUT...........The rich man was ALREADY in hell and as you can see, could not and did not change his location.

He did not change his location no matter whether he came to christ or not because DEATH sealed his Destinny.

 

[Major1]

No, like you and I. Why are you attacking my loved ones now? What's wrong with you?

Truth has no boundries!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

BUT...........The rich man was ALREADY in hell and as you can see, could not and did not change his location.

Richie goes through Christmas past, present and future, kind of like Scrooge from the childhood favorite Dickens novel.

Past is his jolly life kicking around (his 'purple patch') and ignoring the plight of Lazarus.

Present is his rude awakening in Hades, where he grapples with the truth of his past.

Future is the confession of sin and bowing of knee to Christ, who holds the keys to death and Hades, and comes to give life, and in abundance.

What could the future hold for you, Major?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

"What do we want? Expiatory purification! When do we want it? Later!"

Perhaps we should develop some UR slogans, in a similar way to the old 'Always a son, always a Father'-style of popular apologetics.

 

[ozso]

Truth has no boundries!

I wish you could have conducted yourself better. Adios.

 

[Saint Steven]

In both occasions upon which sacred Hell Yes verses hang, are instances of fugitive exaggeration used to make a point. Like Jesus telling the Pharisees they swallow camels.

Here's an OT example of that very thing, which you may have seen me post before. Notice the exaggerated language used matches the common descriptions of hell.

Edom
Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit today with a bypass to get around it. Compare verse ten below. (Revelation 14:11)

Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.

 

[Saint Steven]

Perhaps we should develop some UR slogans, in a similar way to the old 'Always a son, always a Father'-style of popular apologetics.

How about, "Love wins!"
Oh wait, that one's taken. (Rob Bell)

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I'm reading yet another post by a young Christian who's terrified they're not really saved and going to hell. I seem to see a lot of those. Many are terrified they committed the unpardonable sin over some trivial thing they did or thought.

"I'm terrified, I seriously really am. I've prayed thousands of times. I can't find peace, I am feeling so scared."

ECT can really turn Christianity into a nightmare. Nobody knows what the unforgivable sin is, and hence whether their salvation is a slippery slope to eternal torment. The only solution, it seems, is Phariseeism - no flies on me, Jesus did it all, but look at what I've sacrificed!

Funnily enough, that state of mind is exactly what Jesus came to free us from:

“THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO BRING GOOD NEWS TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED" (Lk 4:18)

To which the hellists say, feverishly, 'But it continues: "To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;" The vengeance, burning writhing flaying eternity. See, see!'

I sincerely hope and pray for their release, they're really getting the worst of both worlds.

 

[Saint Steven]

Truth has no boundries!

My, my...

So, if you really love the secretary at work, you should approach her romantically, thus disregarding your marriage vows to your wife?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

How about, "Love wins!"
Oh wait, that one's taken. (Rob Bell)

Sure, it's a compilation, nothing new under the sun and all that.

I always liked Exitus et Reditus. As all proceed from God so to Him shall all return.

It has the logical inevitability of a silver bullet.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

How about, "Love wins!"
Oh wait, that one's taken. (Rob Bell)

The Bible already gives us the best UR slogans :

All die in Adam, all alive in Christ.
Every tongue, every knee.
Unto Him, all shall live.

 

[Saint Steven]

I always liked Exitus et Reditus. As all proceed from God so to Him shall all return.

Wow. What is the source of that Latin phrase, or did you coin it? Sounds familiar somehow. Seems like part of Jewish theology, though the Latin is pointing elsewhere. - lol

Tied to the pre-existence of souls? The idea that all souls pre-existed and when a person dies their soul returns to God who gave it? But that would mean a loss of the personal identity of each individual soul. Being reabsorbed into "the one great soul"? (or pool of souls)

 

[Saint Steven]

The Bible already gives us the best UR slogans :

All die in Adam, all alive in Christ.
Every tongue, every knee.
Unto Him, all shall live.

I was remembering the "Got Milk?" ad slogan we have here to promote dairy products.

"Got Knees?"

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Wow. What is the source of that Latin phrase, or did you coin it? Sounds familiar somehow. Seems like part of Jewish theology, though the Latin is pointing elsewhere. - lol

I believe it's none other than St Thomas Aquinas, the Summa Theologica, of which the Abigail Adams Institute says, inter alia:

The pattern defining most of the Summa is exitus-reditus [going-out-from-returning-to]: the proceeding of all things from God (creation) and their return to God in free moral action and ultimately through Christ.
Thomas Aquinas - Summa Theologica — The Abigail Adams Institute

So the greatest Roman Catholic theologian (possibly save Augustine), structured his greatest work on the universalist principle.

Tied to the pre-existence of souls? The idea that all souls pre-existed and when a person dies their soul returns to God who gave it? But that would mean a loss of the personal identity of each individual soul. Being reabsorbed into "the one great soul"? (or pool of souls)

Idk if the pre-existence of souls is a necessary concomitant. The soul could still be created at conception, I suppose, or before...

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I was remembering the "Got Milk?" ad slogan we have here to promote dairy products.

"Got Knees?"

Wasn't one of the apostles, maybe James the lesser, apparently known as ol' camel knees? Because he'd just drop to his knees at any time in great fervent outpourings of gratitude. Is that extra-Biblical?

 

[Hmm]

I was remembering the "Got Milk?" ad slogan we have here to promote dairy products.

"Got Knees?"

Very funknee. This kneeds to stop.

 

[Fervent]

When it comes to experts, one can verify their credibility.

The central issue here is the dispute isn't about the credibility of the expert, but the argument that the expert presented. I have explained why the argument presented is a bad argument, and pointed directly at the grammatical features that render it a bad argument. I am not basing this on any sort of authority on my part, but the basic grammar that has been discussed. To then make it about the fact that the argumeent was made by an "expert," regardless of whether that is true or not, is a patent fallacy. Expert testimony is only useful if it is used as support not as the argument itself. If the arguments themselves are not understood then the proper thing to do is not take a side, but to continue to stand on an argument that has been defeated because it was made by an "expert" simply because you do not have the understanding of what is at issue is nothing more than confirmation bias and shows that this is not about a search for truth but an attempt to confirm what is desired to be believed.

 

[Fervent]

Still I find myself wondering what actual word Jesus used that was rendered into "aionios" considering the word can have different meanings.

Fair enough, but we can pretty well resolve the ambiguity in Greek through context. If it's "eternal" for eternal life, it's "eternal" for eternal punishment. And it really is that simple. To deny the eternality of the punishment is to deny the eternality of the life.