Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Ceallaigh]

That is exciting to hear. Do you remember when it was that you began to have a liberal slant to your theology?

If it's there, it's probably always been there. But for the most part I gravitate towards old school conservative teaching. I'd say since I'm becoming more interested in Orthodoxy and theologies like Theosis, I'm becoming even more old school.

Now while something like UR probably seems new school, I was introduced to the old school Orthodox view of salvation by one of the universalists here. I can't think of a universalist who wouldn't eat up the Orthodox view of salvation in this video I've posted a few times.

 

[Ceallaigh]

As DA said, if it walks like a duck.

To expand, when people state they would choose eternal hell over loving a God that would send people to hell their itchy ears seek teachers who teach that God would never. The Bible poses it a different way, though, in asking "would you annul my justice to vindicate yourself?"

Job 40:8. I don't think that's quite what's going on, as they're not really challenging God, but rather challenging what's being taught about God. Like I pointed out to Major1, universalists prefer the ancient Orthodox teaching regarding salvation.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I am still waiting for credible, verifiable, historical evidence for anything you say.
Even if true how does this reflect anything, good or bad, about the historical beliefs, faith and practices of the Jews? Would the Jews make up detrimental lies about their own faith etc?

It would seem so, considering what Jesus had to say about the teachings of the Pharisees.

OBTW didn't the Jews make up lies about Jesus during in His own lifetime?

Yes, because He was condemning their teachings and putting them under conviction.

 

[Fervent]

Job 40:8. I don't think that's quite what's going on, as they're not really challenging God, but rather challenging what's being taught about God.

Job wasn't really challenging God, either. The issue is they seek to give counsel on what justice is by defining it themselves and then insisting that God must behave as defined or else He is unjust. But if God, in His wisdom, were to find eternal hell just who can give Him counsel?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Job wasn't really challenging God, either. The issue is they seek to give counsel on what justice is by defining it themselves and then insisting that God must behave as defined or else He is unjust.

And that's what universalists assert regarding the teaching of eternal torment.

But if God, in His wisdom, were to find eternal hell just who can give Him counsel?

No one, if that's what they believe about God.

 

[Fervent]

And that's what universalists assert regarding the teaching of eternal torment.

The issue is they put the cart before the horse, defining what they want God to look like and then discarding anything to the contrary. Basing their objection almost entirely on their philosophic disposition and treating what's written in the Bible as secondary.

No one, if that's what they believe about God.

It's not that they don't believe God to engage in it, it's that they present their moral objection as a boundary up front and reject ECT upon human philosophy without concern for resolving what God's word says. Whether it is true or not, the Bible clearly has quite a bit of support in favor of ECT and it is only through applying an ad hoc hermeneutic that it can be excluded.

 

[Ceallaigh]

The issue is they put the cart before the horse, defining what they want God to look like and then discarding anything to the contrary. Basing their objection almost entirely on their philosophic disposition and treating what's written in the Bible as secondary.

Many Christians are taught X and they stick with it, discarding anything to the contrary. Others learn things outside of their initial indoctrination and switch over to it. Christian UR is based on scripture and church history, rather than it being a philosophy that has no foundation. One can argue that their belief regarding scripture and church history is incorrect, but it can't be truthfully said that they don't rely upon those factors.

Now while I'm sure there are universalists who mainly go by their feelings what sounds good to them, that doesn't apply to all of them. Many who already knew scripture and theology quite thoroughly, switched over to UR after having put it through a lot of scrutiny. Others like me are willing to consider it a possibility, again after having put it through a lot of scrutiny.

It's not that they don't believe God to engage in it, it's that they present their moral objection as a boundary up front and reject ECT upon human philosophy without concern for resolving what God's word says. Whether it is true or not, the Bible clearly has quite a bit of support in favor of ECT and it is only through applying an ad hoc hermeneutic that it can be excluded.

That's probably true of some, but not all. Not all of them came out of the gate rejecting ECT. Many and perhaps most believed in and even taught ECT for a long time. And they didn't just abandon it overnight the minute they heard about UR. For many it was a slow painstaking process.

 

[Lazarus Short]

People especially make bad arguments when they are attempting to defend something they are emotionally attached to, which UR proponents generally are.

Aren't ECT and annihilation proponents usually emotionally attached to their own beliefs? I have seen people just go off the rails when I brought up the idea that "hell" does not exist.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Aren't ECT and annihilation proponents usually emotionally attached to their own beliefs? I have seen people just go off the rails when I brought up the idea that "hell" does not exist.

Indeed. In many cases here I've seen far more emotion than objectivity.

 

[Ceallaigh]

MMXX. Graduating from college does not mean that anyone "knows their stuff".

Sometimes.....people are educated beyond their intelligence!!!!

Yes, but I've known him extremely well his entire life so.....I know his level of intelligence!!!! And I know what and how much he was taught!!!! And I know how much he knew and understood!!!!

Now I'm not saying he knew everything, or that (like the rest of us) he didn't have more to learn. But he knew and understood much.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I am still waiting for credible, verifiable, historical evidence for anything you say.

Based on your pattern, it seems likely to me that you've been saying that for years, regardless of any credible, verifiable, historical evidence that's been presented. Your mantra seems to be that no one has ever presented credible evidence, and that no one has ever been able to refute you.

 

[Ceallaigh]

When I was 12 years old, I came to Christ from listening to E.J. Daniels and Billy Graham.

Did you know that Billy Graham was a borderline universalist?

"I think there's the Body of Christ, which comes from all the Christian groups around the world. Or outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ" - Billy Graham (1997).

 

[Hmm]

As DA said, if it walks like a duck.

To expand, when people state they would choose eternal hell over loving a God that would send people to hell their itchy ears seek teachers who teach that God would never. The Bible poses it a different way, though, in asking "would you annul my justice to vindicate yourself?"

This is assuming that God's justice is in opposition to his mercy as if he has to weight justice and mercy up like a human judge when deciding on a particular fate. But God is not in opposition with himself - his justice is loving and his love is just.

Team Hell have to think of God as having a kind of split-personality like this because they believe that punishment in hell (kolasis) is purely punitive. However, kolasis means pruning and correction. I

Imagine how the God you present would behave the presided over a human court. He would always either dismiss the case or give a sentence eternal torment. There would be no proportionality or rehabilitation in his sentencing. To answer.your question, if God was like this, he would have annulled his own justice, and doesn't need us to do it for him.

 

[Hmm]

But if God, in His wisdom, were to find eternal hell just who can give Him counsel?

This way of looking at God, thinking that he is free do whatever he wants to us, even torture us forever, because he's God and we have no right to complain, comes from seeing him above all as a God of power which gives him the right to act as arbitrarily as he wishes, cf. Caligula or Kim.Jong-Il

However, God showed us in Jesus that He is also a God of love and forgiveness and He behaves towards us like a Father.

 

[Hmm]

The issue is they put the cart before the horse, defining what they want God to look like and then discarding anything to the contrary. Basing their objection almost entirely on their philosophic disposition and treating what's written in the Bible as secondary.

Your attempts at philosophy are misplaced. Universalists see God by how he has shown himself to be in Jesus. Therefore they believe that he's not going to torment/torture anyone. Quite simple really.

 

[Hmm]

Aren't ECT and annihilation proponents usually emotionally attached to their own beliefs? I have seen people just go off the rails when I brought up the idea that "hell" does not exist.

It's clear from personal testimony that ECT especially holds a powerful sway over it's believers. It's based on fear and causes immense emotional damage in those who are unable to reconcile ECT with a loving God and can't simply overlook the contradictions. It often takes a long time and a lot of study to learn what scripture actually says about "hell" before someone is able to finally extricate themselves from the indoctrination, and that's often at a high personal cost such as rejection from church and family.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Did you know that Billy Graham was a borderline universalist?

"I think there's the Body of Christ, which comes from all the Christian groups around the world. Or outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ" - Billy Graham (1997).

While I fully understand that some of you guys are leaning toward U.R., let's be careful in parsing the difference between Universal Reconciliation and Inclusivism (both versus Exclusivism) ... so we don't end up conflating what are otherwise two separate and different ways of thinking about God's acts of providence as He gives Illumination to individuals in our world.

 

[Ceallaigh]

While I fully understand that some of you guys are leaning toward U.R., let's be careful in parsing the difference between Universal Reconciliation and Inclusivism (both versus Exclusivism) ... so we don't end up conflating what are otherwise two separate and different ways of thinking about God's acts of providence as He gives Illumination to individuals in our world.

I consider that level of inclulcivism a step away from UR. But hey, that's me. And actually when I think about it, I'm probably closer to believing in it than UR.

 

[Hmm]

While I fully understand that some of you guys are leaning toward U.R., let's be careful in parsing the difference between Universal Reconciliation and Inclusivism (both versus Exclusivism) ... so we don't end up conflating what are otherwise two separate and different ways of thinking about God's acts of providence as He gives Illumination to individuals in our world.

Inclusivists are found in all Christian traditions including universalism but a belief in UR does not have to be inclusivist and usually isn't. Christian universalism is Christocentric and adheres to the Nicene creed etc.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Inclusivists are found in all Christian traditions including universalism but a belief in UR does not have to be inclusivist and usually isn't. Christian universalism is Christocentric and adheres to the Nicene creed etc.

Yes, I know. There are multiple combinations. But Billy Graham was no universalist, and we should be clear on that.