Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Ceallaigh]

How much do you know about Oliver B. Breen?

William B. Nelson, Jr. wrote the article on Sheol you posted. I just wondered if you knew anything about him.

 

[Der Alte]

Your "I have yet to see" is you interpreting the text.
Not at all, aionios is a complex word and serious scholars have been cited by both sides probably but certainly in support of UR. You may dismiss what they say but that is not a refutation.

So long you, and others, insist that "aionios" means "endless" or "everlasting" there will be no satisfactory interpretation other than ECT. This is the beginning and the end of the story for you and there is no point in discussion.

Either of you are free to show me that I am in error in this post. Note particularly the 10 verses spoken by Jesus. I wonder how Jesus could have been so wrong as the UR-ites argue?
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is correctly translated eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is correctly translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
In twenty four [24] of the following verses aion and aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.


[Character Limit. Continued next post]

 

[Der Alte]

[Previous post continued]

Paul used the word “aionios” eighteen [18] times. It is translated “eternal/everlasting” 16 times and world only 2 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines/describes “aionios” as eternal.

[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]​

In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios]​

In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios]​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life.​

In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[24]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”

[25]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.​

In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[26]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
= = = = = = =
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Either of you are free to show me that I am in error in this post.

Would it matter any? I figure you'd just keep repeat posting the same gish gallops regardless.

 

[Lazarus Short]

"Gish gallop" - I decided to look that up - good term, and appropriate.

 

[Hmm]

Either of you are free to show me that I am in error in this post.

Well, it started erroneously and gradually became more flawed and the less said about part 2 the better.

 

[Fervent]

Okay, what context that relates to Corinthians 15:22 "for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ" gives it a non-universalist meaning?

Considering that the vast majority of readers do not interpret that as teaching universalism, it seems rather a trivial question. All who are raised, are raised in Christ. This is especially apparent that it isn't speaking of universalism when Paul speaks of gaining something through battling beasts. If resurrection is for all, rather than exclusive to those who confess Christ why would being martyred for believing on Christ bring gain?

That is, of course, ignoring that this verse fails on 2/3 of my criteria because while it is didactic, the lesson being taught does not hinge upon universalism being true nor is it teaching on final/afterlife issues.

 

[Fervent]

It's probably more like not wanting to be branded as a heretic, than being hostile to UR.

I think you misunderstood my question, as the central thrust of it is that it is the theology driving the "questioning" rather than linguistic issues. If the only people questioning a words meaning are pushing a theology that depends on that meaning being something other than the traditional interpretation, then the questioning itself is suspect. So hostile witnesses would be of much greater value than "scholars" who are pushing a theology dependent on their questions.

 

[Fervent]

So long you, and others, insist that "aionios" means "endless" or "everlasting" there will be no satisfactory interpretation other than ECT. This is the beginning and the end of the story for you and there is no point in discussion.

First, it's not simply my "insistence," it is that the only reason that seems to be presented for questioning it is dissatisfaction with what is clearly entailed if the word holds. It's purely motivated questioning, seeking to force an interpretation because the words present make people unhappy. Scripture is supposed to break us, not us break Scripture because we don't like the conclusion we have to draw from it.

 

[Der Alte]

* * *

Would it matter any? I figure you'd just keep repeat posting the same gish gallops regardless.

"Gish gallop" - I decided to look that up - good term, and appropriate.

No problem. I accept both your white flags of surrender.

 

[Ceallaigh]

No problem. I accept both your white flags of surrender.

Seems to me you're about the only one here out to score points.

 

[Hmm]

Considering that the vast majority of readers do not interpret that as teaching universalism, it seems rather a trivial question.

Why does that follow? The majority of the early church was probably universalist in any case.

All who are raised, are raised in Christ.

But that's not what the verse says. It says "for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ".To it's "all", you have added "who are raised in Christ." Why?

That is, of course, ignoring that this verse fails on 2/3 of my criteria

Well, I'm sure Paul would have been proud to know that his verse at least meets 1/3 of your criteria.

 

[Der Alte]

Why does that follow? The majority of the early church was probably universalist in any case. * * *

Please provide some credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence anonymous online blogs do not constitute such evidence.

 

[Der Alte]

* * * But that's not what the verse says. It says "for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ".To it's "all", you have added "who are raised in Christ." Why? * * *

All mankind are "in Adam" because all mankind are literal descendants of Adam. However, all mankind are not inherently "in Christ." Being "in Christ" requires an intentional, voluntary action on the part of every person individually.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:​

Not in Christ, no redemption.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

Not in Christ and walk after the flesh, results in condemnation.

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.​

Not in Christ, the veil is not taken away.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

Not in Christ, not a new creature, old things are not passed away.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:​

Not in Christ, not gathered together.

Ephesian 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.​

Not in Christ, still afar off, not nigh.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.​

Not in Christ, do not obtain salvation, no eternal glory.

 

[Lazarus Short]

No problem. I accept both your white flags of surrender.

No surrender...no retreat...no Gish gallop.

 

[Hmm]

Please provide some credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence anonymous online blogs do not constitute such evidence.

As you have rejected every piece of scholarship that has been offered to you, why don't you specify exactly what would constitute credible or verifiable evidence to you and I'll see what I can do. As far as historical evidence goes, you have already rejected the writings of Gregory of Nyssa, Origen and other Early Church Fathers and I don't think I can get much more historical than that unless I conduct an expedition to the Holy Land to find even earlier documents. I'm more than happy to do that though if you can assure me that you would accept photographic evidence and won't require the original manuscripts.

 

[Lazarus Short]

All mankind are "in Adam" because all mankind are literal descendants of Adam. However, all mankind are not inherently "in Christ." Being "in Christ" requires an intentional, voluntary action on the part of every person individually.

Opposed to your rationalization is the PLAIN statement of I Corinthians 15:22 - "For even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive." from the YLT. I looked the verse up in the KJV I used to discredit "hell," (because it was handy) and found my marginal note:

"NOT: All who are in Christ shall be made alive." Yes, all who are in Christ shall be made alive, but that is not what the verse says.

I can't believe you really fail to miss the meaning DE.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Speaking of Gish Galloping, I have noticed on this thread, looooooooooooooooog posts by "hell" proponents, but at least once when I posted one of the shorter chapters of my book, I was told it was too long to read. Nuts.

 

[Hmm]

All mankind are "in Adam" because all mankind are literal descendants of Adam. However, all mankind are not inherently "in Christ." Being "in Christ" requires an intentional, voluntary action on the part of every person individually.

But it doesn't say "all those in Christ". That's what you want it to say but it doesn't. It says "all", the same "all" that died in Adam, i.e. "all". It's like Team Hell sees a mirage when they are confronted with this verse and see things that aren't there but which they desperately wish were.

 

[Der Alte]

As you have rejected every piece of scholarship that has been offered to you, why don't you specify exactly what would constitute credible or verifiable evidence to you and I'll see what I can do. As far as historical evidence goes, you have already rejected the writings of Gregory of Nyssa, Origen and other Early Church Fathers and I don't think I can get much more historical than that unless I conduct an expedition to the Holy Land to find even earlier documents. I'm more than happy to do that though if you can assure me that you would accept photographic evidence and won't require the original manuscripts.

I don't recall ever rejecting any quoted historical source out-of-hand but I do recall presenting arguments versus such information. Perhaps you could point me to 1-2 examples. But I won't hold my breath. Just for funsys here is Origen's explanation of "eternal life" particularly as used in John.

(59) He [Heracleon] is not wrong, however, when he says that the water that the Savior gives is of his spirit and power.[John 4:14]
(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.
[1] Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 67–69). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.​