Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Your post reminds me of the assertion that Jesus said more about Hell, blah, blah, blah. I looked at His statements about Heaven versus His statements about "hell," and found a ratio of about 6.5 to 1. Even if we accept "hell" as true, the emphasis of Jesus was Heaven, and by a wide margin. Propaganda again.
I agree.Exactly. Case in point, most Christians would probably say that unbaptised babies and young children will go heaven. However, this is really just a presupposition they are making and not something that Scripture actually says. However, they won't extend this to adults, again because it is their presupposition and nothing to do with Scripture.
The false logic of trying to limit God in this way is seen if you ask, at what moment of time does a young child cross over from being someone who will go to heaven to someone who will go hell? Is it at 9 years and 3 months old? Or at 19 years, 8 months, 7 days, 2 hrs, 33 mins, 4 seconds... I could go on but maybe they're open-minded about milliseconds ... The logic is clearly absurd.
Wow. Seriously?
It all depends on your presuppositions.
Except for a few mistranslated passages, the whole bible supports UR. Here are a few selected verses.
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.
This is the sort of ignorance we are hoping to dispel.
Universalism was alive and well in the early church. See quote below.
The belief was dominant in the Eastern/Greek church. (4 of 6 early Church theological schools were Universalist) When the Western/ Latin Church became dominant, UR was pushed out. We are currently witnessing a revival of an early church belief.
"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor:
"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."
Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context as in this post.
Does everything that God desires come to pass without exception?
Many years ago when I first heard the proof text about a leopard not being able to change his spots, nor the Ethiopian his skin, I needed to see the context. I found that God was speaking to the king and queen of Israel not, necessarily all of mankind, Jer 13:18. And as I read further in this chapter I found another passage, which refutes several tenets.
.....Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s express will, clearly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist.
It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”
Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.Note, verse 14, God said “I will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.”
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
No reason? On the contrary.Steve. There is absolutly NO reason for you to respond to my posts. YOU....as YOU just said are predisposed to believe what you want to believe and nothing said from the Bible will change that.
So.....save yourself some time and aggravation.
Absolutely CORRECT my friend!
If anyone wants to believe a false theology......they will find it in the Bible by looking for it.
It is called ....."Cafeteria Christianity".
You are flip-flopping.I think that every single person understands that YOU as a Universalists are desperate to overstate your case.
And even if it were true that the majority of the early church believed one view over the other, we probably couldn't know for sure and since when did the majority of anything make it true. IF and when God says something is right...then it is right.
AND......for the 1st 1500 years of the 20th century, the church was taught to be the one involved in our salvation. Did that make it a true doctrine????
That did not change until Martin Luthers 99 Thesis in 1565.
Steve. There is absolutly NO reason for you to respond to my posts. YOU....as YOU just said are predisposed to believe what you want to believe and nothing said from the Bible will change that.
So.....save yourself some time and aggravation.
Absolutely CORRECT my friend!
If anyone wants to believe a false theology......they will find it in the Bible by looking for it.
It is called ....."Cafeteria Christianity".
Yes.Also I'm sure many Catholics would say "Cafeteria Christianity" is the definition of Protestantism.
Yes.
A knowledgeable Catholic/Orthodox/even Anglican, etc. can really take you to task on what Protestantism falsely claims. (and rightly so, in most cases)
Staying within a doctrinal box isn't necessarily a good thing either.
Also I'm sure many Catholics would say "Cafeteria Christianity" is the definition of Protestantism.
How is it that you come to the conclusion that Steve doesn't believe the Bible, right after he posted a slew of scripture to support what he believes?
This isn't a matter of not believing the Word of God. It's a matter having an interpretation of scripture that differs from yours, based on scriptural evidence.
You are flip-flopping.
first you claim UR is false because the majority doesn't believe it. So I showed you that it was the majority view in the early church.
Now you flip back the other direction and ask when the majority was ever right. - lol
So tell me Major, what does the total victory of Christ look like to you?
No reason? On the contrary.
You aren't the only reader of my posts to you. Not only am I responding to you, but to those who both agree and disagree with you.
Besides, I wouldn't dream of asking you not to respond to my posts. That is your decision. And it would be rude for me to even infer that you had no reason to respond.
Furthermore, your inference that my views are not biblical is completely false. Which of the verses that I posted to you is not biblical? - lol
This is the sort of ignorance we are hoping to dispel.
Universalism was alive and well in the early church. See quote below.
The belief was dominant in the Eastern/Greek church. (4 of 6 early Church theological schools were Universalist) When the Western/ Latin Church became dominant, UR was pushed out. We are currently witnessing a revival of an early church belief.
"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor:
"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."
Your god, der Alte, is like the super-Caesar. Will he glorify, or will he condemn! Thumbs....down.
And we like the Romans are never sure one moment to the next whether he's prepared some list which bears our names and is headed 'sword' or 'dagger'.
Der Alte, God is not 'same same' like Caesar. He is unlike any other, His ways are above ours, unsearchable and yet distinctively knowable by the imprimatur of life, truth and fatherly love. That's why Jesus goes to cross, because the power of heaven is utterly different to the carnal powers of earth. The devil may wield the power of death, but God overcomes it by restoring life, and in abundance. Jesus came to do such things, not to terrorise ordinary folk with 'what ifs'.
Some things I consider is, there's no real mention of hell in the entire Old Testament. Neither Moses nor the prophets said anything about it. The closest to it I can think of is Daniel 12:2.
Most of the time Jesus mentions Gehenna he's speaking figuratively and using hyperbolic language. "If your eye offends you, gouge it out..." Or he's telling a parable, in which again he uses figurative and symbolic language.
So a good chunk of Jesus talking about "hell" is in the form of figurative language and symbolism. A lot of which I think had to do with the impending destruction of Jerusalem.
Then there's Revelation. But again, that's also full of hyperbolic apocalyptic figurative symbolic language.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?