Occams Barber

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Now who's playing "silly word games"? You "suggest that they forgo" it? Okay. I wasn't aware that this thread was a suggestion, but now that you've made it clear that it is: Thanks for your suggestion. The answer is no.
I'm in Australia, you're in ?, other people I'm talking to are from the US, readers could be from anywhere. I used forgo to avoid any dependence on a specific country's legality. Forgo can be legally forgo or voluntarily forgo. You can be coerced to forgo or convinced to forgo. Throughout this thread I have been careful to try to avoid specifying whether the response to discrimination should be legal or through societal pressure since laws vary across countries. US industrial law is probably quite different to Australian industrial law.
According to the theologies of some of the particular churches which maintain this prohibition, yes.

If I boil this all down you're basing your case on tradition and/or the Bible. This doesn't change the fact that it's at loggerheads with societal practice - which is my point. The Bible says many things but we don't automatically follow suit where these practices collide with modern expectations. Traditions can and do change when they become anachronistic. We already have some churches accepting women therefore there is already some level of disagreement with your theological objections.

Take it the editorial pages of your local feminist magazine, then. Maybe this sort of thing passes for a serious objection in Upside Down Land, but most Western countries recognize that not treating religious institutions as though they are secular is part of the separation of Church and State, not a violation of it. In the US, this is explicitly stated in our founding document, in the establishment clause of the First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereo
Lose the snarky tone and I might have a little more respect for your opinions.
Is a church exempt from building regulations or fire safety rules? Can a church ignore the law when it comes to non clerical employees? Can a Church play its organ loudly at 2,00 in the morning? Churches are subject to a range of secular laws which have no bearing on the 'establishment of religion or ...etc'. There is no reason to assume that a non-discrimination requirement is any different.
Will that be before or after you explain why it is rational to abolish the foundation of the modern secular state (the separation of Church and State) so that women can hold a particular job?
Now you're getting ridiculous.

While we're only focussing on the issue of female clerics remember that I cited around eleven other issues where Christianity expects the right to avoid conforming with the standards of society.

OB
 
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FireDragon76

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So they do or do not enjoy Christian privilege allowing their hate speech?

It's better to deal with that through reasonable public debate rather than making his speech illegal.
 
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FireDragon76

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They also function as employers who have the ability to hire and fire and impact on the lives of their employees.

Religious organizations are not public accommodating businesses or charities and don't function the same. If you belong to one, you are agreeing to the rules of the religion. It's not inherently oppressive or unjust in a religiously free society for a religion to have its own rules and customs.
 
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Occams Barber

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Religious organizations are not public accommodating businesses or charities and don't function the same. If you belong to one, you are agreeing to the rules of the religion. It's not inherently oppressive or unjust in a religiously free society for a religion to have its own rules and customs.

From Post# 101
Is a church exempt from building regulations or fire safety rules? Can a church ignore the law when it comes to non clerical employees? Can a Church play its organ loudly at 2,00 in the morning? Churches are subject to a range of secular laws which have no bearing on the 'establishment of religion or ...etc'. There is no reason to assume that a non-discrimination requirement is any different.

A Church is still subject to the laws and rules which govern the rest of us.
Arguably activities related to the practice of the religion should be free from any interference; but even there, if your Church wants to sacrifice a virgin as a part of its worship practice, the law ain't gonna be too happy.
OB
 
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dzheremi

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I'm in Australia, you're in ?, other people I'm talking to are from the US, readers could be from anywhere. I used forgo to avoid any dependence on a specific country's legality. Forgo can be legally forgo or voluntarily forgo. You can be coerced to forgo or convinced to forgo. Throughout this thread I have been careful to try to avoid specifying whether the response to discrimination should be legal or through societal pressure since laws vary across countries. US industrial law is probably quite different to Australian industrial law.

Alright.

Again: Thank you for your suggestion. The answer is no.


If I boil this all down you're basing your case on tradition and/or the Bible.

I'm saying that would be the reason why those churches that maintain the prohibition do so. I'm not making an argument of myself.

This doesn't change the fact that it's at loggerheads with societal practice - which is my point.

I'm just saying that frankly, this is a pretty lousy point. What you don't seem to be understanding, and what FireDragon76 very kindly keeps to be trying to explain to you, is that the fact that churches are neither public accommodations nor secular businesses allows them a certain freedom to be run differently than how other types of organizations within the society would be run -- e.g., regarding sex descrimination in employment, or not recognizing gay marriage, or any number of other things. So pointing out that whatever example you can come up with is "at loggerheads with societal practice" doesn't really mean anything. We know that. That's why they're exceptions to begin with. If simply any type of organization could do this, then it wouldn't be specifically "Christian" (or "Muslim", or "Jewish", or whatever). Religions are given certain freedoms that non-religions don't have. Whether or not you think it should be so is completely irrelevant. It is established as such in US law (which is where I am, so that's what I'll be dealing with), and that law is not overturned because an atheist in Australia doesn't understand it or like it.

There are plenty of US laws that I don't particularly like, yet I still recognize why they're there and don't complain about them or seek that they should more closely fit my own point of view, because I actually like the secular society I live in where I only participate in religion in the way and to the degree that I see fit, and don't try to legislate from the Book of the Hours or whatever.

The Bible says many things but we don't automatically follow suit where these practices collide with modern expectations.

Automatically, no, but again, nobody is forcing you to.

Traditions can and do change when they become anachronistic. We already have some churches accepting women therefore there is already some level of disagreement with your theological objections.

I don't care. Did you miss the point wherein churches that are not in communion with each other cannot dictate to one another what they ought to and ought not be doing? This is how FireDragon76's church can ordain women, yet mine cannot. No Coptic Orthodox clergyman or layperson can force the Lutherans to stop ordaining women, and nor can the Lutherans force the Coptic Orthodox to start doing so. We can continue to disagree and yet still see each other as Christian in whatever way we may. The fact that somebody "over there" may have some objection means absolutely diddly squat, because beyond what it takes to make sure that our own congregations are following our own rules, we don't involve ourselves in whatever others may be doing.

Lose the snarky tone and I might have a little more respect for your opinions.

Lose the opinion that is trying to chip away at the secular foundations of my society and I might lose the snarky tone.

Is a church exempt from building regulations or fire safety rules?

Is the substance of those laws anything like your earlier objection regarding sex discrimination? No. We didn't arrive at building regulations and fire safety rules due to social attitudes on church leadership structure (read: a fire will destroy your building whether there are "women priests" inside of it or not). It's not the same thing at all.

Can a church ignore the law when it comes to non clerical employees?

I'm not sure what a "non clerical" church employee would be, but when an atheist friend of mine worked at a local Catholic school several years back, she was required to sign the same morality clauses as everyone else (I didn't ask for specifics, but apparently they must not have been too objectionable to her, as she took the job; it was just doing after-school care with grade schoolers, from what I remember...no religious instruction involved). Such clauses would be highly illegal in a secular employment setting, so I'm going to tentatively say yes to this one, though I'm not sure about how this may play out in every US state or individual case. I've heard of fired employees attempting to sue for discrimination in certain cases when the termination was due to violating some part of the morality clauses, but I can't recall any of the outcomes. Probably some were won, some were lost, depending on the specifics of the case.

Can a Church play its organ loudly at 2,00 in the morning?

Just like your fire and safety example, this is not a very apt comparison. You first asked about sex discrimination, and were told that there were theological reasons for it. I am not aware of any theological reasoning behind the practice of playing the organ loudly at 2 in the morning, and if there were, it very well may depend on the zoning laws much more than fact that it's a church. I've heard of complaints being brought against newly constructed mosques/Islamic cultural centers for blaring the Islamic call to prayer at 5 a.m. (or whenever their first call to prayer is; I think it's around then), but in the specific case I'm thinking of, it was a place that had been constructed within some 200 yard of residential housing in a suburb somewhere, so very ill-suited for that practice.

There's a reason why monasteries and the like (where you're more likely to get calls to prayer -- either with bells or other methods -- at odd hours) tend to be in out of the way places, such as in the middle of the desert or the woods, atop high mountains with no surrounding houses that aren't attached to the monastery, etc.

Churches are subject to a range of secular laws which have no bearing on the 'establishment of religion or ...etc'. There is no reason to assume that a non-discrimination requirement is any different.

Except that it is in fact very different. You're not comparing like with like at all. Fire codes and such apply equally to all buildings, whether they're religious or not, in the interest of public safety. Things like sex discrimination laws aren't established in the interest of public safety at all.

Now you're getting ridiculous.

Your entire argument rests upon the faulty notion that religions ought to be treated like secular enterprises based on nothing more than your own personal desire that it be so. I can't think of anything more ridiculous than that.

While we're only focussing on the issue of female clerics remember that I cited around eleven other issues where Christianity expects the right to avoid conforming with the standards of society.

So what? The entire point of the separation of Church and State -- again, at least as outlined in the establishment clause -- is that the government cannot pass laws with regard to the establishment of a religion, i.e., not only can we not have a 'national religion' by government decree, but the government does not get to tell us how we may or may not practice our religions (the second part of the establishment clause, sometimes called the "free exercise clause") without some very good reason for doing so, as in matters of public safety.

The other examples you brought up either prove that no such 'Christian privilege' exists (the cake bakers and such, who lost their cases precisely because their public accommodation-type businesses were not classifiable as religious organizations/churches), or are all matters of societal disapproval/critique, which is not the same as public harm.

You can pass a law against the free exercise of religion with regard to those things that physically harm people. You will have a much harder time (in the US at least) passing a law against free exercise with regard to things that simply make people feel bad, or cause them to see religious people as jerks, or whatever. Even those cases like the Christian bakers and such weren't decided on the basis of hurt feelings (though that no doubt came about at some stage during the penalty assessment phase), but on lack of equal access without reasonable defenses made for said denials, because these were after all public businesses. That's why my point was that proposing the sort of thing you're proposing violates the foundation of secular society not any less than the boogeyman of 'Christian theocracy' does: Because the same freedom that allows the Christian church to say they won't employ a woman as a pastor or won't recognize/officiate a gay marriage allows some other churches to say they will (the government can't dictate for either which decisions they should make), and some businesses which are trying to operate as though they were churches when they aren't to be reminded of the limits of the invocation of religious freedom in running their public businesses (because that is the government's domain, precisely because it's public).

Your idea is apparently to collapse the two by treating everything as though it is accountable to secular standards. That's not how we do things, and no amount of appealing to those standards is going to change that when the entire point of having such a separation into two different spheres is the recognition that they aren't the same thing to begin with.

This entire idea of yours is a non-starter, since it actually does more to damage the foundation of secular society than simply leaving things as they are would, with the "wall of separation" (going both ways, as walls naturally do) intact.
 
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Freodin

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Religions have every right to decide that a woman is not a valid candidate for certain clerical offices. That is not the same kind of harm as taking a virgin and throwing her in a volcano.

My own church ordains women as pastors but I would never say that churches that do not do so should be punished by the law. That would be illiberal.

What your wrote earlier:
"People should have the freedom to practice their religion as their conscience dictates. You may not like it, but you should respect other peoples rights to see things differently."
So either people have the freedom to practice their religion as their conscience dicates - with no other limitations than what their conscience dictates, even if other people do not like it - or they don't.

If my conscience dictates that my church shall not ordinate women... then I should have the right to do that. Correct? Because this is what my conscience tells me to do.

And if my conscience dictates that my church shall scour the city for virgins to sacrifice in a volcano... I suddenly don't have that right anymore? Because that's "not the same (ehm) kind of harm"?

Who gets to decide just what "kind of harm" you can do to others in the name of religion? Let me guess.. the religious! Right?

And that, my friend, is religious privilege.
 
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HitchSlap

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It's better to deal with that through reasonable public debate rather than making his speech illegal.
I take this to mean you consider those who spew hate speech to be reasonable?

BTW, where did I suggest it should be illegal?
 
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Albion

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I refuse to play your legalistic game.

Discrimination is not accepted whether an organisation is private or public.

"Not accepted?" The issue here is the law.

We do not simply say, in this country, that if someone's religion includes tenets that someone else finds distasteful, that the religious institution must be prosecuted or etc. or its private dealings must be made to conform to the values of someone else. That is a freedom enshrined in the Constitution.

If, however, the church, religious association, etc. were to actually discriminate against people in the public sector, such as in interstate commerce or employment, the situation would be different.

But bias or bigotry is not illegal, no more than stupidity is. And that is the case no matter how distasteful it may be to most of us.
 
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Strathos

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All right Dodger, whatever you say.

I used to consider you an honest poster. This last exchange with you has caused me to change my opinion of you.

Take care.

Excuse me for focusing on the core of the issue and refusing to be sidetracked by your attempts to divert the topic.

You can't complain that 'Christian privilege' is what allows some Christians to say hateful things when atheists can and do say things that are at least as bad. Your argument would only hold weight if the atheist hate speech was censored and the Christian speech was not.
 
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HitchSlap

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Excuse me for focusing on the core of the issue and refusing to be sidetracked by your attempts to divert the topic.

You can't complain that 'Christian privilege' is what allows some Christians to say hateful things when atheists can and do say things that are at least as bad. Your argument would only hold weight if the atheist hate speech was censored and the Christian speech was not.
The article you linked said nothing of atheism or hate speech. You're dishonest and going on ignore.
 
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Strathos

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The article you linked said nothing of atheism or hate speech. You're dishonest and going on ignore.

It was an example which you asked for, regarding post-birth abortion. Are you saying that the people making that argument were Christian, or that if they were, it would be received differently?
 
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HitchSlap

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FireDragon76

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This is the cult of the New Independent Fundamental Baptist movement. Somehow, I just don't see a Muslim organization declaring a 'make America Muslim again,' if Christian privilege was nonexistent.

Florida church wanted police protection for "Make America Straight Again" conference, they refused

Lake County church hosting 3-day ‘Make America Straight Again’ event

If you notice, the group's request for police protection was turned down by the police. How exactly is that privileging their perspective?
 
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HitchSlap

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If you notice, the group's request for police protection was turned down by the police. How exactly is that privileging their perspective?
So, now you've limited the definition of "privilige" to only include police protection?

Whatever it takes to deny the fact Christian's enjoy a certain privilege in American society, I guess.
 
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Resha Caner

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Christian Privilege

CF posters regularly complain that Christianity is oppressed in Western democratic society. Looked at realistically the opposite is true. Far from being oppressed, Christians have a significant degree of behavioural leeway in ignoring the rules and standards imposed on the rest of society. Christianity holds a privileged position to the point where it is given, or expects, or demands, a latitude which would be unacceptable for a secular organisation.

That might be your opinion, but some studies indicate otherwise.

In the U.S. changing attitudes probably can't be called persecution or oppression, but it doesn't give one a warm & fuzzy feeling. The report notes that attacks are most prevalent in areas dominated by atheism or Islam. Given declining church membership in the U.S., that doesn't bode well.

Given my hobby as a filmmaker - an area dominated by non-Christian views - I've noticed something interesting. If people know me, they're polite. But if I'm in a filmmaker's group that doesn't know I'm Christian, not a day goes by without a hostile comment about Christians. So, again, it's rare that someone is openly hostile towards me, but I do get the impression there is something simmering beneath the surface.

I do recall a social study on oppression that indicated groups that feel oppressed, when they finally are freed from that oppression, tend to become just as bad toward their former oppressors.
 
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dzheremi

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This is the cult of the New Independent Fundamental Baptist movement.

I hadn't heard of this group at all before this thread. Notice how even you are calling it a cult. Maybe this thread would be better titled 'Cult privilege', then, not for the sake of invoking the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy (unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your view, Christianity is not a gate-keeping religion beyond some basics as in the Nicene Creed, which functions as the statement of faith of this very omni-confessional website; and even then, that's a theological standard, not a behavioral standard), but in recognition of the fact that we're actually talking about a tiny minority of fringe fundamentalist nutjobs.

Somehow, I just don't see a Muslim organization declaring a 'make America Muslim again,' if Christian privilege was nonexistent.

(A) That statement doesn't make sense, as America could never plausibly be argued to have ever been Muslim in the first place, so it can't be called to be Muslim again. NB: I happen to be one of those people who does not believe America to have ever been an explicitly/officially 'Christian nation', as I've read the constitution that forbids the governmental establishment of religion, but certainly there is an argument to be made that by self-identification, America has historically been and largely still is at least a Christian-majority nation. Therefore, if a comparison must be made that brings Islam into the picture, I'd say we're more like the UAE of Christian nations than Saudi Arabia, with the notable difference that UAE still has Islam as its official religion (with all that this entails, Shari'a-wise, e.g., the law forbids proselyzation of religions other than Islam, apostasy of Muslims, marriage of non-Muslim men to Muslim women, etc.), its percentage of Muslims (72%) is roughly comparable to our number of Christians in the USA (71.9%, and that's counting only Protestants and Roman Catholics, leaving out all Orthodox who add maybe as many as a few million to the total if you lump Eastern and Oriental Orthodox together for statistical purposes, and leaving out groups which claim to be Christian but are mostly rejected by the Protestant and Catholic mainstream, like the Mormons, who would add another 1.8% of they are considered Christians), and it is a multi-religious and multi-ethnic country, which each religion and group allowed to do their thing, so long as it doesn't bother the Muslim majority or violate the Shari'a.

The italicized part is obviously not like the USA, where non-Christians are allowed to do basically anything they want that isn't violent even if it bothers the Christian majority or violates that majority's religious code/convictions.

(B) This set of clauses are logically disconnected from one another. How does whether or not a Muslim group would declare their desire to have America become (again?) a Muslim nation have anything to do with whether or not Christian privilege exists? Are you trying to say that Muslim groups don't or can't declare that because they're not allowed, due to 'Christian privilege' somehow? Because there certainly are groups in the USA who do say that. Siraj Wahhaj, the mentor of the leftist-feminist-Islamist darling Linda Sarsour, is infamous for claiming that Shari'a will rule America and other crazy nonsense (and he's a US-born black Muslim convert). In fact, if you put "Siraj Wahhaj Shari'a in America" into Google right now, one of the results you should get is a video on YouTube posted by a channel called "Islam on Demand" that is titled "Islam: The Solution to America's Social Problems". I didn't click it, but it's a ~90 minute video, freely posted and freely accessible to anyone.

So I don't know what your point is with this. Having Christians saying crazy stuff about wanting to make the ten commandments the law of the land or whatever this independent Baptist cult you're harping on does nothing to stop or impede Muslims from saying the same thing with regard to wanting their own laws to rule over all of society, with roughly the same logic at work in both cases (and Wahhaj is not some nobody on the fringe of Islam; he's the former president of the Islamic Society of North America, the largest Muslim organization in the country).

It's almost like 'Christian privilege' isn't a thing! :eek:


As FireDragon76 has pointed out, they were refused that protection, so this kinda works against your argument.


And other groups can hold other events, and/or protest this one. I can't speak for the OP's country, but that's how America's supposed to work, not evidence of any kind of Christian privilege at work, since anyone of any background can do anything like this or against this if they choose, so long as they have permits (if they're staging some kind of rally or whatever) and don't get violent.

Really, this whole thread reads like a bunch of smug atheists getting mad at Christians for using their freedoms 'wrongly' (not in accordance with the atheists' secular values, which they take to be the values that society should have), and therefore deciding that we should have them taken away, because we're 'privileged' by virtue of using them, even as my Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, Atheist, etc. neighbors have the same rights as I do, not less, so they could also use their freedom to do things that the atheists might not like.

Boo freaking hoo. That's how this country is set up, and it generally works because fringe elements either stay fringe or eventually are told to go sit in the corner until they can learn to play nice with the rest of society. And all of society is a part of this process, so there is a kind of ebb and flow to things as the 'cultural theology' of society is in constant flux, and there certainly are 'fashions of thought' particular to certain eras (e.g., the Moral Majority, big in the 1980s, is basically a non-entity today; the LGBTQAWHATEVER movement, big now, was very much not the focus of society's attention until pretty recently). As the OP wisely pointed out in one of his responses to me, society changes. This is one of the reasons why we have protections for religions, so that they don't have to 'change with the times', and can instead teach enduring values, even if the atheist would classify those values as 'discrimination', 'hate', 'ignorance' or whatever else, as is their right if that's how they feel. We still have the right to teach and preach, again thanks to the establishment clause; if you don't like it, you are the problem, since you're against the establishment clause, which is what both guarantees that America cannot descend into theocracy (sorry, GOP), and cannot interfere with the individual (person or congregation) in their running of their own spiritual lives and communities.

Secularist Shari'a (a.k.a. "I'm a secular atheist and this offends me and is against my values, so I want to make it illegal and punishable as a crime") is not a suitable alternative to frankly incredibly overblown fears of a "Christian Taliban", and what we have works just fine 99.999% of the time, or at the very least much better than any other society which does not have something equivalent to the establishment clause in its founding documents.
 
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zippy2006

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I agree. BTW, my church does ordain women as pastors but I do not agree with characterizing churches that do not as a "harm to society" that justifies prohibiting the free exercise of their religion. That's infantilizing grown adults.

Indeed. The OP's argument becomes particularly weak when it devolves into thought-policing, saying that others are not legally allowed to hold differing opinions.
 
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If you notice, the group's request for police protection was turned down by the police. How exactly is that privileging their perspective?

I'll bet they didn't expect that turn down and resented it.
 
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As long as He has a good rational reason for throwing some people (and not others) into the Lake of Fire
or
Practises non-discrimination by throwing everybody into the Lake of Fire
then I can't accuse God of discrimination. Barbaric cruelty maybe - but not discrimination. :rolleyes:
OB
Discrimination isn't a bad thing when done with love and grace.
Don't parents "discriminate" who their kids play with?
Don't we "discriminate" which foods we dine on everyday?
Or where we buy our gas?
Or which shirt to put on?

We choose the better option for myriad reasons.
As for God being barbaric for throwing the wicked into the lake of fire...How many warnings do you feel would have been enough?
They know what is coming but still choose a dark path with dire consequences.
 
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