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Christian pluralism

Aelred of Rievaulx

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in Christian I believe Jesus is God incarnate he died and rose again I believe the the bible is God's word but I also believe that other religions are also ok and that they all have inherit truth and value
This places you within the tradition (or trend if you prefer) of religious scholars like Louis Massignon and Thomas Merton. Every religion expresses something deep about the human condition, one can find goodness and beauty across the board.
 
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Kutte

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in Christian I believe Jesus is God incarnate he died and rose again I believe the the bible is God's word but I also believe that other religions are also ok and that they all have inherit truth and value

Hi Theatreguy18

God died on the cross? Really? I don't think that God dies, ever.

Kutte
 
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HitchSlap

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Hi Theatreguy18

God died on the cross? Really? I don't think that God dies, ever.

Kutte
The Trinity is a conundrum indeed. It's doctrine would have us believe that God impregnated Mary, with himself, was born, then killed on a cross, only to ascend to himself in heaven, but leave behind himself in the form of a ghost. It's all very confusing and illogical, and only makes sense with a healthy dose of special pleading.
 
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Wgw

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The Trinity is a conundrum indeed. It's doctrine would have us believe that God impregnated Mary, with himself, was born, then killed on a cross, only to ascend to himself in heaven, but leave behind himself in the form of a ghost. It's all very confusing and illogical, and only makes sense with a healthy dose of special pleading.

Only if one conflates the human and divine natures of Jesus Christ and ignores the concepts of consubstantiality and hypostatic union. Basically you are attacking monophysitism (contrary to popular belief, the Oriental Orthodox are not monophysites); monophysitism proper died out around the turn of the seventh century. Or alternately Sabellianism, which was revived some decades ago by Oneness Pentecostals after a 1,700 year hiatus.

Your criticism would be valid if we did not distinguish between the human and divine natures of Christ (which we do not confuse, change or separate), or if God was a unified single prosopon rather than three consubstantial prosopa of a unified essence.
 
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Xalith

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Only if one conflates the human and divine natures of Jesus Christ and ignores the concepts of consubstantiality and hypostatic union. Basically you are attacking monophysitism (contrary to popular belief, the Oriental Orthodox are not monophysites); monophysitism proper died out around the turn of the seventh century. Or alternately Sabellianism, which was revived some decades ago by Oneness Pentecostals after a 1,700 year hiatus.

Your criticism would be valid if we did not distinguish between the human and divine natures of Christ (which we do not confuse, change or separate), or if God was a unified single prosopon rather than three consubstantial prosopa of a unified essence.

I think Genesis 1:26 is probably the easiest way to debunk the idea that the same Being was doing all of this. Anybody who doesn't agree with the Trinity has a real problem with that verse (they will claim "translation errors" but that is easily debunked too by a quick trip over to Biblehub).

And if it were the same Being doing all of this, then why does this Being refer to Himself as "us", unless there were actually 3 Beings in 1 singular essence?

Let alone all of the times that Jesus prays to "The Father", and has conversations with Him, etc. Or the time Jesus disagreed with Him (but of course submitted to His will anyways as a model for us to follow). etc etc etc
 
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Aelred of Rievaulx

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I think Genesis 1:26 is probably the easiest way to debunk the idea that the same Being was doing all of this. Anybody who doesn't agree with the Trinity has a real problem with that verse (they will claim "translation errors" but that is easily debunked too by a quick trip over to Biblehub).

And if it were the same Being doing all of this, then why does this Being refer to Himself as "us", unless there were actually 3 Beings in 1 singular essence?

Let alone all of the times that Jesus prays to "The Father", and has conversations with Him, etc. Or the time Jesus disagreed with Him (but of course submitted to His will anyways as a model for us to follow). etc etc etc
While it's true that this verse, amongst many others contributed to the emergence of Trinitarian orthodoxy it doesn't strictly lend itself to trinitarianism: Jewish interpretations have suggested that it implies a divine/regal plurality, other interpretations suggest that it is a remnant of a pre-biblical polytheistic background to the text.
 
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Wgw

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I think Genesis 1:26 is probably the easiest way to debunk the idea that the same Being was doing all of this. Anybody who doesn't agree with the Trinity has a real problem with that verse (they will claim "translation errors" but that is easily debunked too by a quick trip over to Biblehub).

And if it were the same Being doing all of this, then why does this Being refer to Himself as "us", unless there were actually 3 Beings in 1 singular essence?

Let alone all of the times that Jesus prays to "The Father", and has conversations with Him, etc. Or the time Jesus disagreed with Him (but of course submitted to His will anyways as a model for us to follow). etc etc etc

We must recognize that God posesses an essential unity; the distinct prosopa do not detract from this.
 
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sdowney717

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in Christian I believe Jesus is God incarnate he died and rose again I believe the the bible is God's word but I also believe that other religions are also ok and that they all have inherit truth and value

Ok for what exactly? What purposes?
Other religions have their own truth but what good is it really if it results in going to hell.

Jesus said no one comes to the Father except by Him, so all other ways to God and heaven are satanically inspired lies.
For example, Apostle John says this
1 John 2
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also
 
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Theatreguy18

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Ok for what exactly? What purposes?
Other religions have their own truth but what good is it really if it results in going to hell.

Jesus said no one comes to the Father except by Him, so all other ways to God and heaven are satanically inspired lies.
For example, Apostle John says this
1 John 2
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also
Don't force you're close minded views of God on me
 
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Xalith

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Don't force you're close minded views of God on me

While that is a reasonable request, you need to take a look at your own beliefs.

In your OP, you said that you believe that Jesus is God Incarnate, that He died and rose again.. and you believe the Bible is God's Word, right?

Do I have your beliefs right so far? That's what you said in Post #1.

Then you go on to say "but I think other religions are OK".

Well, Jesus Himself said that "I am the only door, nobody can come to the Father but by me". So any religion that does not teach Christ can't possibly be "OK", because without Christ, you can't come to God (let's leave out theoretical situations about people who've never heard the gospel in their life; that doesn't apply here).

So you say you believe in a Book that says you're wrong about your beliefs in other religions.

Although, I suppose I should ask... what do you mean by, "OK"? Do you mean "OK" as in "you'll still be saved if you believe in Buddha or Hinduism, etc"?

I wonder how that works when the Bible condemns idolatry and false gods left and right. Half of the OT is littered with God being angry with the idolatry in Israel.
 
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Aelred of Rievaulx

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Then you go on to say "but I think other religions are OK".
As someone who believes much the same as Theatreguy18 I'll jump in here.
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger wrote a short book back in 1998 titled Die Vielfalt der Religionen und der Eine Bund, translated into English as Many Religions - One Covenant. At the conclusion of the book he states, and I'll quote at large (1999:109-110):

Ratzinger said:
Anyone who expects the dialogue between religions to result in their unification is bound for disappointment. This is hardly possible within our historical time, and perhaps it is not even desirable . . . What we need, however, is respect for the beliefs of others and the readiness to look for the truth in what strikes us as strange or foreign; for such truth concerns us and can correct us and lead us farther along the path. What we need is the willingness to look behind the alien appearances and look for the deeper truth hidden there . . . I must always look for what is positive in the other's beliefs

Ratzinger goes on to say that missionary activity should certainly not be replaced by dialogue but that the missionary activity and dialogue should fundamentally integrate together.
 
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Theatreguy18

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While that is a reasonable request, you need to take a look at your own beliefs.

In your OP, you said that you believe that Jesus is God Incarnate, that He died and rose again.. and you believe the Bible is God's Word, right?

Do I have your beliefs right so far? That's what you said in Post #1.

Then you go on to say "but I think other religions are OK".

Well, Jesus Himself said that "I am the only door, nobody can come to the Father but by me". So any religion that does not teach Christ can't possibly be "OK", because without Christ, you can't come to God (let's leave out theoretical situations about people who've never heard the gospel in their life; that doesn't apply here).

So you say you believe in a Book that says you're wrong about your beliefs in other religions.

Although, I suppose I should ask... what do you mean by, "OK"? Do you mean "OK" as in "you'll still be saved if you believe in Buddha or Hinduism, etc"?

I wonder how that works when the Bible condemns idolatry and false gods left and right. Half of the OT is littered with God being angry with the idolatry in Israel.
Idolatry who said any thing about that Hindus don't worship statues instead they worship the God that it represents Hinduism is in fact monotheistic Buddhism for the most part has no divinity unless ur a Tibetan Buddhist I believe Christ manifest in many ways for many people
 
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sdowney717

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1 Timothy 2:5
Acts 4:12
John 14:6

"Religious pluralism" is out there. Christian pluralism is an oxymoron.

14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
 
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Percivale

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14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
Explain how this relates to the discussion.

I believe there is truth and value in every religion, though where they contradict Christianity they are wrong. Those who follow other religions sincerely will have a chance after death to accept Jesus, as everyone will, so whatever truth in those religions helps them in that direction, will be helpful to them, and so will any influence toward righteous living they have gained from their religion. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that God spoke to the founders of some other religions, though I haven't seen evidence of it. Confucius, for instance, has a lot of good teachings, but because he was a wise man, not by revelation, I'd say.
 
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sdowney717

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Explain how this relates to the discussion.

I believe there is truth and value in every religion, though where they contradict Christianity they are wrong. Those who follow other religions sincerely will have a chance after death to accept Jesus, as everyone will, so whatever truth in those religions helps them in that direction, will be helpful to them, and so will any influence toward righteous living they have gained from their religion. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that God spoke to the founders of some other religions, though I haven't seen evidence of it. Confucius, for instance, has a lot of good teachings, but because he was a wise man, not by revelation, I'd say.

So what then about Jesus's words?
You think the scripture is just attributing them to Christ, Christ did not say those things?
You do not believe in the scriptures then as God's words. You just chose what you want to believe, so your foundation is of your own design, which is shaky ground.
If you deny Christ by saying He is not the only way to the Father as Christ said, then you do not have the Father and scripture says your a liar and an antichrist.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

If you love Christ you will keep His words, which means them all, otherwise do not call yourself a christian as your not. Beware of false Christs, do you really think God would allow scriptures to be contradictory?

This here

14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

When you speak against what Christ said, then your antichrist and your speaking harsh words against Christ by not acknowledging what He said as truth.
 
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Percivale

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So what then about Jesus's words?
You think the scripture is just attributing them to Christ, Christ did not say those things?
You do not believe in the scriptures then as God's words. You just chose what you want to believe, so your foundation is of your own design, which is shaky ground.
If you deny Christ by saying He is not the only way to the Father as Christ said, then you do not have the Father and scripture says your a liar and an antichrist.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

If you love Christ you will keep His words, which means them all, otherwise do not call yourself a christian as your not. Beware of false Christs, do you really think God would allow scriptures to be contradictory?

This here

14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

When you speak against what Christ said, then your antichrist and your speaking harsh words against Christ by not acknowledging what He said as truth.
Nothing I said contradicts Jesus being the only way to God. Everyone, to be saved, must accept Jesus, either in this life or the next, and the sooner the better. But not everyone knows that yet, and other religions do have some teachings that will help people do what is right.

And I'd suggest you should be careful not to be an 'accuser of the brethren.'
 
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juvenissun

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in Christian I believe Jesus is God incarnate he died and rose again I believe the the bible is God's word but I also believe that other religions are also ok and that they all have inherit truth and value

A religion needs a god. So the gods of other religions are NOT ok to a Christian no matter how true and valuable are their doctrines.
 
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