Christian Meditation

[Arsenios]

Thanks for the answer, Arsenios. I'm not sure it matches my experience of working with people with autism, but then I reflect I have mostly worked with children, and that is different again.

I simply have a couple of lightly autistic friends - I do not work with those who are very autistic as you perhaps do, but I have spent time with one in particular, and the one thing I do not want to hear from him is "I'm autistic"... I care about him, about what he is doing, and not about some name for a collection of symptoms... Maybe my response was just for him, and perhaps does not pertain to others... But I know others too, and I empathise with their struggles to connect... I was astonished to see my friend encounter a boy quite a bit more autistic than he is, and his response to him, and his explanation of him to me...

We seem to be having more autistic children these days... Is it true? Or are we just getting more aware of them? My friend hangs with me because of my antics with him - He says I am good for him - He knows his shortcomings... I simply enjoy him as he is and as he does...

Enough!

Arsenios

 

[Paidiske]

We seem to be having more autistic children these days... Is it true? Or are we just getting more aware of them? My friend hangs with me because of my antics with him - He says I am good for him - He knows his shortcomings... I simply enjoy him as he is and as he does...

I think we are more aware. Anecdotally I hear that ten years ago doctors were reluctant to diagnose, now they are quick to diagnose, because we have learned the value of early intervention (speech therapy, occupational therapy etc).

I am glad for your friendship. It makes me hopeful that my daughter will also enjoy such friendships.

 

[Arsenios]

Of course. The entire gospel is in the OT. Paul himself said so:

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,​

The only "scripture" that existed when Paul wrote that was the OT.

I have wondered what Christian evangellization might look like without the NT...

The 2000 year history of the Eastern Orthodox Church has a consistent experience of the Spiritual Life in Christ, and at the apex of that Life is the ascent unto the heavens that has no words - Paul wrote about it, and so have many Christians after him... John wrote about it... Is there any indication in Scripture of what exactly their meditations consisted? I mean, if it was a meditating on Scripture, would not Scripture have recorded such an instruction? Peter spoke to the Cornelius party and the Holy Spirit descended upon them... The Blessed Virgin showed up at Elizabeth's home and the Holy Spirit filled them...

Christ wrote: "But I have overcome the world..." What does that mean and how are we to follow Him, or even CAN we? Did Peter overcome the world? Did Paul? Did the other Apostles? Does meditation have anything to do with overcoming the world? Do we overcome the world by studying Scripture?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I think we are more aware. Anecdotally I hear that ten years ago doctors were reluctant to diagnose, now they are quick to diagnose, because we have learned the value of early intervention (speech therapy, occupational therapy etc).

I am glad for your friendship. It makes me hopeful that my daughter will also enjoy such friendships.

May God continue to bless you both...

Arsenios

 

[Dave-W]

I have wondered what Christian evangellization might look like without the NT...

As Messianics, our evangelists do that all the time.

Chosen People Ministries has a great book we use going thru Isaiah 53.

 

[Paidiske]

To me, evangelising without the gospel sounds like a contradiction in terms?

 

[Dave-W]

To me, evangelising without the gospel sounds like a contradiction in terms?

Who said it is "without the gospel?" Note the verses prior to the passage I quoted above:

1 Corinthians 15:1
Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.​

Then he goes on to say that this gospel was "according to the [OT] scriptures."

 

[Paidiske]

If you preach only the OT, without any reference to the NT, to Jesus, his incarnation, passion and death... then it is without gospel. If you talk about those things, even using the OT to illustrate them, then you have brought in the NT as well.

 

[Dave-W]

If you preach only the OT, without any reference to the NT, to Jesus, his incarnation, passion and death... then it is without gospel. If you talk about those things, even using the OT to illustrate them, then you have brought in the NT as well.

We use the OT to show (as our Lord said) that it actually points TO Jesus. That his life death and resurrection was according to OT scripture.

It is not that we never reference NT truth; we just use the OT to do it.

 

[Arsenios]

Who said it is "without the gospel?" Note the verses prior to the passage I quoted above:

1 Corinthians 15:1
Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.​

Then he goes on to say that this gospel was "according to the [OT] scriptures."

So where, in the OT, IS the Gospel of Christ?

And can you say it (the Gospel of Jesus Christ)
in under 10 seconds
while standing balanced on one foot?

The post-incarnation folks could do so...

The pre-incarnation folks could not...

Arsenios

 

[Dave-W]

the Gospel of Christ?

The word "Christ" never appears as such in the Hebrew Scriptures.

So where, in the OT, IS the Gospel ... ?

the most obvious place is Isaiah 53.
a second is Jeremiah 31. (the promise of a coming New Covenant)
And we cannot forget Joel 2.

And can you say it (the Gospel of Jesus Christ)
in under 10 seconds
while standing balanced on one foot?

Wow. That sounds familiar.
Should I give you the Shammai answer or the Hillel answer?

But in general - No; either from a NT or OT perspective. Any who claims to do so is leaving off many important details.

 

[Arsenios]

The word "Christ" never appears as such in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Yet without the Name, He is clearly foretold throughout the Sacred History of the Jews...

Yet the Gospel is not there, only the foretelling of His arrival, clear only in retrospect...

the most obvious place is Isaiah 53.
a second is Jeremiah 31. (the promise of a coming New Covenant)
And we cannot forget Joel 2.

Prophesies, not the Gospel of Christ...

Wow. That sounds familiar.
Should I give you the Shammai answer or the Hillel answer?

It is one of my favorite challenges - I have offered it in many places...

It is the Gospel John offered (Matt 3:2), And upon his Beheading, Christ took it up (Matt 4:17), and after His Death and Resurrection, the Apostle Peter proclaimed it (Acts 2:38)... This is the Good News of the New Testament, the fulfillment of the OT Prophesies - The ARRIVAL here and now on earth of the Kingdom of Heaven, and the COMMANDMENT of what we are to DO about it - eg BE YE REPENTING... Christ IS the Kingdom of Heaven, and we are BAPTIZED INTO Christ BY His Apostles who disciple us in the Faith that Christ GAVE to the Apostles, the Faith of Christ...

But in general - No; either from a NT or OT perspective. Any who claims to do so is leaving off many important details.

The explanation of the Gospel comes from Christ Himself:
Matt 11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until now
the Kingdom of Heaven is suffering violence,
and the violent are taking it by force.

You see, the violence the violent are committing is also in obedience to Christ:

Matt 16:24
If anyone is willing after Me to be coming,
let him first deny himself
then take up his cross
and follow Me...

Self denial, putting the Old Man to death, and taking up one's cross are all part of the commandment "Be ye repenting", which comes to us from God because of the Good News, the Gospel: "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

So balancing on one foot I proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ:

Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!

Takes 2 seconds...

And you are right, its inauguration in the human soul, where it is no longer engraved in cold stones, nor on written pages, but in the living flesh of living human beings, takes a lifetime of teaching and learning... A very worthwhile God-quest by my reckoning... Not for the faint of heart!

One must be willing to deny self will...

No small mtter!

Arsenios

 

[Dave-W]

"Wow. That sounds familiar.
Should I give you the Shammai answer or the Hillel answer?"

It is one of my favorite challenges - I have offered it in many places...

So which do you prefer? Hillel or Shammai?

I would say our Lord preferred Hillel's answer (to a degree).

 

[Arsenios]

So which do you prefer? Hillel or Shammai?

I would say our Lord preferred Hillel's answer (to a degree).

Forgive me - I am ignorant of those two names...

And they are not the only ones of which I possess great ignorance!

I was more intent on knowing YOUR understanding...

I had no idea it was going to be multiple choice!

Arsenios

 

[Dave-W]

Forgive me - I am ignorant of those two names...

Our Lord may have met one or both of them when He visited the Temple at age 12. They would have been in their 90s.

They were the best of friends and the 2 foremost Torah experts in the Land. Hillel headed up the Pharisee side of the Sanhedrin and Shammai was his deputy. Both started schools of training in Jerusalem. And they disagreed on well over a hundred points of doctrine and practice.

The story goes that sometime late in the first century bc a Roman commander walked into Shammai's school and demanded he teach him the Torah while he stood there (in full armor) on one foot. Shammai had him immediately thrown out. So he went to Hillel's school and made the same demand. Hillel told him "Love God with all of your heart soul and strength; and love your neighbor as yourself. The rest is commentary." And then he had the Roman thrown out.

FYI - Hillel was the grandfather of Gamaliel who was Paul's mentor.

Arsenios - I would suggest familiarizing yourself with the different points of view between them. Pharasaism was not a monolith, and I find it helpful when reading the Gospels to understand WHICH group of Pharisees I am reading about.

 

[Arsenios]

Our Lord may have met one or both of them when He visited the Temple at age 12. They would have been in their 90s.

They were the best of friends and the 2 foremost Torah experts in the Land. Hillel headed up the Pharisee side of the Sanhedrin and Shammai was his deputy. Both started schools of training in Jerusalem. And they disagreed on well over a hundred points of doctrine and practice.

The story goes that sometime late in the first century bc a Roman commander walked into Shammai's school and demanded he teach him the Torah while he stood there (in full armor) on one foot. Shammai had him immediately thrown out. So he went to Hillel's school and made the same demand. Hillel told him "Love God with all of your heart soul and strength; and love your neighbor as yourself. The rest is commentary." And then he had the Roman thrown out.

FYI - Hillel was the grandfather of Gamaliel who was Paul's mentor.

Arsenios - I would suggest familiarizing yourself with the different points of view between them. Pharasaism was not a monolith, and I find it helpful when reading the Gospels to understand WHICH group of Pharisees I am reading about.

Thank-you -

Well, so much for my vanity of imagined originality for my request of giving the Gospel in under 10 seconds while balancing on one foot - I have been upstaged by a Roman Commander a generation prior to Christ. Thank you for helping me get past a misconception...

I must say that studying pre-Christian Judaism by personalities is far from my interest these days... If you wish to engage me there, I will only be able to do so as you present it here in written 'conversation'... I just am not 37 any more - Just the reverse, actually!

Upstaged by a pre-Christian Roman officer interloper!

How humiliating!

I am in your debt!

Arsenios

 

[Dave-W]

Thank-you -

You are welcome, I think.

I have found a lot of misconceptions of just that type in my own upbringing, that history actually corrects.

 

[Arsenios]

You are welcome, I think.

I have found a lot of misconceptions of just that type in my own upbringing, that history actually corrects.

Each of them that I have somehow managed to unearth from the tomb of dung that covers most of me across the decades is a treasury to me!

Being disillusioned is, after all, a release from illusion...

No small matter...



Arsenios

 

[Dave-W]

Being disillusioned is, after all, a release from illusion...
No small matter...

Very true!

 

[dcamero]

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