Christian Marriage

Psalm63 · Sep 12, 2011

McScribe said:
My interpretation actually avoids the problem of the terminology and goes right for the heart of things, which is what is submit to one another in love, the whole direction of Eph 4 and 5.

The key to it all is understanding how Christ loved the church according to his words and actions, understanding how the church responded to Christ at its best, and putting the two together. if you see it that way it is astonishingly freeing. We don't need to worry per se about which translation it is because Jesus' actions are clear.

What is Jesus' underlying purpose as a leader? It is ultimately to unite us with God. To see God through him. It is not to treat people as servants but rather to have them understand that we are joint heirs with him.

What is the purpose of the church? To respond to that. To actually live by faith.

So essentially what Paul is really saying is that in marriage we should be good friends to one another, love one another, be honest with one another, be generous towards one another.

If all Christian men embraced their responsibility in marriage as being first to lay down life and be Christlike, I'm not sure wives would struggle under the teachings? But people are human. No man is going to be 100% Christ-like all the time. And, unfortunately, as the OP noted, the male as holder of "final decision making power" is often taught .

Plus regarding your idea of "mutual submission" (which sounds great to me BTW) Eph 5:24 comes after Eph 5:21 and in the immediate context. So are wives supposed to SUBMIT in EVERYTHING?

That is how I tried to live for 22 years of my 29 year (Oct 9) marriage. It was horrible and I wouldn't recommend it to my worst enemy! That's why I'm so encouraged to read people's testimonies- that (most) women aren't attempting to practice "SUBMIT in EVERYTHING".

JRSut1000 · Sep 12, 2011

I like how when the men fall short, women immediately jump on it and use it as a means to discredit the Scriptures. But there is no responsibility for when women fail?

mkgal1 · Sep 12, 2011

I don't believe anyone in this thread is attempting (or would even WANT to try to make any attempt) to discredit Scripture....it's merely about how one interprets Scripture that is being discussed. JMO, of course.

JRSut1000 · Sep 12, 2011

I guess when it comes to the marriage passages, I definitely take it at the 'Parshat' level.

Psalm63 · Sep 12, 2011

ex-pat said:
10 A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.
11 Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.
12 She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.
13 She selects wool and flax
and works with eager hands.
14 She is like the merchant ships,
bringing her food from afar.
15 She gets up while it is still night;
she provides food for her family
and portions for her female servants.
16 She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17 She sets about her work vigorously;
her arms are strong for her tasks.
18 She sees that her trading is profitable,
and her lamp does not go out at night.
19 In her hand she holds the distaff
and grasps the spindle with her fingers.
20 She opens her arms to the poor
and extends her hands to the needy.
21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
for all of them are clothed in scarlet.
22 She makes coverings for her bed;
she is clothed in fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is respected at the city gate,
where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
and supplies the merchants with sashes.
25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;
she can laugh at the days to come.
26 She speaks with wisdom,
and faithful instruction is on her tongue.
27 She watches over the affairs of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:
29 Many women do noble things,
but you surpass them all.
30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting;
but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
31 Honor her for all that her hands have done,
and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.

Great role model!
No hint of husband "final decision making authority"
She is a strong independent woman.
BTW, the passage is advice from King Lemuel's Mom about what kind of wife he should pick.

Hope all my sons pick powerful women too!
AND have "full confidence in her" so she can bloom

ETA: Had to come back and add JFTR that our oldest son'e wife is an AWESOME, capable woman and great life partner for my son ( along the lines of the Prov 31 wife Lemuel's mother wanted for him). Our son didn't have any brothers till he was 14, so the young sons are a long way from marrying age!

Edial · Sep 12, 2011

dallasapple said:
Well we have grandfathered in some people..Cant some unmarrieds be allowed something like "guest appearences"?

You have been married before right?..Im sorry that should "count" for some allowance for some "guest" appearences in my book..

It wont bother me..I dont know about others..

Dallas

Never married ... so I'm not even close.

k450ofu3k-gh-5ipe · Sep 12, 2011

JRSut1000 said:
I like how when the men fall short, women immediately jump on it and use it as a means to discredit the Scriptures. But there is no responsibility for when women fail?

mkgal1 said:
I don't believe anyone in this thread is attempting (or would even WANT to try to make any attempt) to discredit Scripture....it's merely about how one interprets Scripture that is being discussed. JMO, of course.

Marriage is intended to be a reflection of the relationship that Christ has with the church which is his "bride". The husband is supposed to represent Christ and the wife is supposed to represent the church.

I think what JRSut1000 is saying is that other people here are saying that no man can ever be 100% like Christ and perfect so why should wives even attempt to practice what is taught in scriptures? At the same time, no one is arguing that men shouldn't even attempt to love their wives as Christ loves the church. It's assumed that it is GOOD for men to attempt to love their wives as Christ loved the church even though their wives will never be perfect. Why isn't it also assumed that it is GOOD for women to practice Biblical submission even though their husbands are not perfect?

If we are to throw out the baby with the bathwater in one instance than we should throw out the baby with the bathwater in the other instance. I think that's the point JRSut1000 is trying to make.

The fact of the matter is that we are commanded to do what we are commanded to do. We are not commanded to point the finger and say someone else isn't doing what they are commanded to do.

Also, submission doesn't mean blind obedience. How do you submit to Christ? Do you submit to him blindly? In the examples we have of people in Scripture, very few if any submitted to Christ blindly. He led by example and drew people towards him. He also gave us the wisdom and intellect to discern right from wrong, foolishness from wisdom. God does not want anyone to submit to another person blindly. If anything, every single cult out there which has committed mass suicide thanks to a bunch of people blindly following a person they thought was the reincarnation of Jesus should teach us a lesson. Don't follow ANYONE blindly.

Created2Write · Sep 13, 2011

dsrohe said:
Marriage is intended to be a reflection of the relationship that Christ has with the church which is his "bride". The husband is supposed to represent Christ and the wife is supposed to represent the church.

I think what JRSut1000 is saying is that other people here are saying that no man can ever be 100% like Christ and perfect so why should wives even attempt to practice what is taught in scriptures? At the same time, no one is arguing that men shouldn't even attempt to love their wives as Christ loves the church. It's assumed that it is GOOD for men to attempt to love their wives as Christ loved the church even though their wives will never be perfect. Why isn't it also assumed that it is GOOD for women to practice Biblical submission even though their husbands are not perfect?

If we are to throw out the baby with the bathwater in one instance than we should throw out the baby with the bathwater in the other instance. I think that's the point JRSut1000 is trying to make.

The fact of the matter is that we are commanded to do what we are commanded to do. We are not commanded to point the finger and say someone else isn't doing what they are commanded to do.

Also, submission doesn't mean blind obedience. How do you submit to Christ? Do you submit to him blindly? In the examples we have of people in Scripture, very few if any submitted to Christ blindly. He led by example and drew people towards him. He also gave us the wisdom and intellect to discern right from wrong, foolishness from wisdom. God does not want anyone to submit to another person blindly. If anything, every single cult out there which has committed mass suicide thanks to a bunch of people blindly following a person they thought was the reincarnation of Jesus should teach us a lesson. Don't follow ANYONE blindly.

Conservativation · Sep 13, 2011

I dont care how any of you handle the issue of submission.....thats just my opinion.

Its like debating the temperature at which you like your coffee

DarylFawcett · Sep 13, 2011

I always have the last word, which is "Yes dear."

Athene · Sep 13, 2011

That's two words actually, Daryl

Athene · Sep 13, 2011

chaz345 said:
Largely historically. I know you like to believe that oppression of women by men is as big a problem today as it has ever been though. Yes it still happens and yes that's a problem, but men oppressing and controlling women is absolutely not a mainstream teaching in the Christian church today.

If for 2000 years, Chrisitans have been getting it wrong - what makes you believe that we living in the 21st century have got it right? Sounds a bit arrogant tbh. Maybe they were right and we've been hijacked by feminism.

Psalm63 · Sep 13, 2011

dsrohe said:
The fact of the matter is that we are commanded to do what we are commanded to do. We are not commanded to point the finger and say someone else isn't doing what they are commanded to do.

.

I invite you to go look at the interlinear for Ephesians 5 at Biblos and examine the grammar of the verbs carefully. You will find that wife submission is not a COMMAND. Imperative verbs are not used.

Now if you look at English translations, many add in COMMAND language, but that's wrong and has succeeded in misleading people for generations.

IF Eph 5:24 is a COMMAND,
THEN a wife is required by God to
SUBMIT to her husband IN EVERYTHING!

There is NO "exception clause": it doesn't say everything EXCEPT...

Most sensible people would immediately realize that she can't SUBMIT in EVERYTHING, that its impossible (he had conflicting demands). And that trying to do so would make for a pretty unhealthy marriage.

Unfortunately for me, being pretty fundamentalist and pretty literal, I didn't dig into the greek but took the english translations seriously and attempted to submit to him in EVERYTHING.

Please consider letting your wife off the hook for "command" interpretation.
A geisha girl can't bloom as your Prov 31 woman IMO.

chaz345 · Sep 13, 2011

Athene said:
If for 2000 years, Chrisitans have been getting it wrong - what makes you believe that we living in the 21st century have got it right? Sounds a bit arrogant tbh. Maybe they were right and we've been hijacked by feminism.

For 2000 year SOME Christians have been getting it wrong. Previously more but now a realtively tiny fringe minority. Regardless though, it's never been what's actually taught. People of both genders have always had a problem with bending scripture to fit what's best for them. Or of focusing on what scripture tells others while ignoring what it tells them. Comming from a point of view that likes to pretend that everything is about men opressing women though, you won't see or believe that though.

Psalm63 · Sep 13, 2011

dsrohe said:
Marriage is intended to be a reflection of the relationship that Christ has with the church which is his "bride". The husband is supposed to represent Christ and the wife is supposed to represent the church.

Yes, but Christ is perfect and the church is sinful. Are husbands perfect and wives sinful?

I once saw a man use the address to the churches of Rev 2-3 to "prove" that he gets to sit in judgment over his wife.

Not saying you are guilty of such a "god complex" but I do think its a danger if a man thinks his call from God is to be Lord of his wife.

dallasapple · Sep 13, 2011

chaz345 said:
For 2000 year SOME Christians have been getting it wrong. Previously more but now a realtively tiny fringe minority. Regardless though, it's never been what's actually taught. People of both genders have always had a problem with bending scripture to fit what's best for them. Or of focusing on what scripture tells others while ignoring what it tells them. Comming from a point of view that likes to pretend that everything is about men opressing women though, you won't see or believe that though.

You can not say its never whats been actually taught as a fact..#1 ..and #2 this thread isnt about "both genders" focussing on what scriptures(plural) tells others and ingnoring what it tells them..

This thread about peoples opinions and interpretations on SUBMISSION and the "male" being the WOMANS head/athourity.. this has nothing to do with "in general" both "genders" bending scripture ..

Dallas

chaz345 · Sep 13, 2011

Niffer · Sep 13, 2011

*continues to beat dead horse*

Conservativation · Sep 13, 2011

Niffer said:
*continues to beat dead horse*

The dead horse is demonstrably submitting to the beater

dallasapple · Sep 13, 2011

chaz345 said:
#1) I didn't say it had never been taught.

#2)Why don't you get on Athene's case for being off topic too? She hasn't been talking about her opinion of submission but rather the effects of how it's been taught. It's no more on topic than what I said. For that matter your whining about me being off topic is off topic.

Im not "whining"..and Athene is ON topic..this thread is about the scriptures in the OP..not ANY scriptures and how "males and females" alike zone in on one any RANDOM scripture to use in their favor..Or to point at someone else for what they are to be doing.

The "effects" of how submission has been tuaght is in RELATION to that scripture and important..What you are talking about is completely an in general observation about ALL scriptures and what both males and females are capable of..

The effects of how submission has been taught is completely on topic/LINKED with how its being INTERPRETED by some.which is what the Op is asking..

Dallas

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