Christian Marriage

[Athene]

Well you obviously have a very healthy self esteem then and are secure in your purpose as a man /human being and thats apparrently not derived from relying on being in "authority" of your wife and her submitting to you to keep you from feeling lost and without purpose..

Its seems there are men out there that without that..being "in charge' of a woman they become lost and sounds like even depressed.. believing they have no purpose as a man.

Sounds like you are very healthy emotionally that you dont feel threatened by sharing the responsiblilities of making the 'final decisions"..with a woman.

Dallas

I was thinking about this. In secular situations, leaders have to prove themselves. My husbands boss for example - has to prove his competence and ability, he would get the blame if things go wrong. If he can't do the job then somebody else will be chosen.

In the conservative Christian marriage - the onus is on the wife to apply herself in making her husband the leader, his leadership is not dependent on his natural ability (if it is even there), but on her going out of her way to make him feel like a leader, and to quietly and meekly submit to him. If things go wrong more often then not it is she who is blamed for not being submissive enough, for usurping his role, for making it difficult for him to lead etc.

The whole situation is completely ridiculous, any decent man should be embarrassed to be seen in such a marriage. To expect his wife to kow-tow to him just because he's a man. It's a fake, a sham.

 

[dallasapple]

Which is strange since I never had a father figure growing up until I hit the age of 16 when my mom married my step-father.

I was raised by a single mom and do have many "idiosyncrasies" that go along with that upbringing, but it could just be that my mother wasn't submissive (still isn't) and it's very much what I'm used to seeing and experiencing.

Well that woudl make sense..I think to many men are "convinced" they are by DIVINE "right" the "authority" over a wife and its mysteriously all becasue they HAPPENED to be born with a penis they are to be "placed in that position..When the fact is..its all been PLACED in their minds..either by example(parents what soiceity told them)..or even by "wishful thinking and t.v programs like someone mentined before ..the sitcoms for the 50's..then they are 'backed up" supposedly by scripture when Paul is talking to a group of people in a society that treats women like peices of meat and property for the mans 'use" and his portfolio..many of them polygymist in fact..with also rampant "use" of concubines who were treated even WORSE than a wife etc...


You just "learned' that you in fact are NOT a womans "authority" just because you are male..How or why would you think any different?

Dallas

 

[Created2Write]

Yes I absolutely do deny that Christianity says that women are inferior. It's been twisted to look that way, by men who sought to control and more recently and more commonly today, by some women seeking "victim points."

 

[Athene]

What's being said is that an understanding of biblical submission as inherently abusive is inaccurate. The interpretations of scripture that have led to abuse were twisting the meaning of it. If you look at the character of Christ truthfully then submission to one another in love is liberating, not imprisoning. If we are all made in the imitation of God and are to act in imitation of Christ then we are all free. He who the son of man sets free is free indeed.

Ya, submission to one another. But one way submission is not liberating. You would hardly say that it is liberating to be a slave.

 

[Athene]

Yes I absolutely do deny that Christianity says that women are inferior. It's been twisted to look that way, by men who sought to control and more recently and more commonly today, by some women seeking "victim points."

Which men?

 

[McScribe]

Ya, submission to one another. But one way submission is not liberating. You would hardly say that it is liberating to be a slave.

In a way people get distracted by the word submission, start with it and try to reason with things from there. If you look at the actual examples in the Bible that are called good it is very different.

In a way submit to one another sounds like a contradiction. It should catch our attention. "Wait, submit to one another? How can you do that? Doesn't one submit while the other leads?" so we should be sitting up and taking notice when we read that.

 

[chaz345]

Which men?

Largely historically. I know you like to believe that oppression of women by men is as big a problem today as it has ever been though. Yes it still happens and yes that's a problem, but men oppressing and controlling women is absolutely not a mainstream teaching in the Christian church today.

 

[JaneFW]

What puzzles me is that .. in all of these discussions, most wives who talk about submission also say that in fact where they have more experience and knowledge, they get the final word in these circumstances, and the men say that their wives also get the last word where they have more experience. So, if that's my marriage without submission, and that's their marriage with submission, what is the difference? The only difference is that they claim a "submissive marriage" and I do not.

 

[Fran75]

What puzzles me is that .. in all of these discussions, most wives who talk about submission also say that in fact where they have more experience and knowledge, they get the final word in these circumstances, and the men say that their wives also get the last word where they have more experience. So, if that's my marriage without submission, and that's their marriage with submission, what is the difference? The only difference is that they claim a "submissive marriage" and I do not.

agree Jane, my DH makes descions about matters in which he has more knowledge and interest and I do the same, and on some issuse we collaberate. I like to say we both wear our own pants (in the family). Spiritualy my husband and mine's religions are pretty different (I am Catholic and he is Born Again) so for him to be my spiritual leader is impossible.

 

[JaneFW]

agree Jane, my DH makes descions about matters in which he has more knowledge and interest and I do the same, and on some issuse we collaberate. I like to say we both wear our own pants (in the family). Spiritualy my husband and mine's religions are pretty different (I am Catholic and he is Born Again) so for him to be my spiritual leader is impossible.

There you go!! For instance, my h is going gung-ho with this whole gun owning thing, to where we now have three handguns, and he is incessantly researching the best kind of weapons and bullets. The only feedback I give is "ouch, I can't fire the .38 because it hurts my hand" and "hmmm, the .22 is the easiest gun to fire in the world." He comes to me and tells me his latest research and which gun he thinks he would like, and I tell him whether we can afford it! For instance, he went to the gun show last weekend, and he bought an old 9mm (forgotten the make, duh). I suggested strongly that he wait, save up and buy a new one, but he wanted to get one NOW, so he did, and now he sorely regrets it because if he had waited, he could have afforded a nice one in a few weeks. Now he has to wait longer to afford it, and in the meantime, he has this clunky one that keeps jamming. I gave my best advice - not according to my knowledge of guns - but according to the principle that anything with moving parts wears down. And, that if you are "investing" in something - a weapon or a car, or whatever - get something that will last for a considerable length of time, rather than something that is already on its last legs. That's not a worthwhile investment! So, he didn't listen to my advice (more fool him, ha ha ha) because he thought that his knowledge of guns trumped my knowledge of making the smartest purchase, but he was wrong, wrong, wrong.

(I haven't said any of this to him. Haven't laughed, haven't rolled my eyes when his gun jammed, haven't for a moment said. a. word .. even when he said "I think you were right .." Uh-huh.)

 

[Danidiaz]

I think a woman must submit to a man, if he is submited to God. If the man is not submited to God then why follow someone that is not serving God as you are then there is a high chance of him living by the flesh ranther than by the Spirit.

 

[JanniGirl]

Why would anyone (MSC edit) let someone else tell them whether or not they can have pain medication during something like childbirth?! If submission means that my husband gets to say, "Nope, she can do without anesthesia . . . I'll be in the waiting room." ... then WOW. I'd run hard and fast for the nearest exit and not look back.

 

[FaithPrevails]

.

 

[k450ofu3k-gh-5ipe]

Why would anyone (MSC edit) let someone else tell them whether or not they can have pain medication during something like childbirth?! If submission means that my husband gets to say, "Nope, she can do without anesthesia . . . I'll be in the waiting room." ... then WOW. I'd run hard and fast for the nearest exit and not look back.

It's a good thing that's not what submission means then.

 

[dallasapple]

What puzzles me is that .. in all of these discussions, most wives who talk about submission also say that in fact where they have more experience and knowledge, they get the final word in these circumstances, and the men say that their wives also get the last word where they have more experience. So, if that's my marriage without submission, and that's their marriage with submission, what is the difference? The only difference is that they claim a "submissive marriage" and I do not.

This is what I ASKED!..over and over...If a marriage that the wife supposedly is "submissive' and the man is the her "head/authority"...then they say yep thats JUST like mY marraige when someone is describing a marraige where the man is NOT "appointed" her authority and she does not label herself "submissive in everything"..then whats the problem?

There HAS to be a notable difference..otherwise the ones saying they are in a "traditional male the head..wife the sumbissive are simply just "claiming" that ..and their marraige in practice is actually a mutually submissive dynamic...but she calls him her "athourity' or the "head of the house and she claims to be submisive TO him ...I guess because they just liek the way it sounds..thats the only thing I can figure out..

Dallas

 

[Edial]

Hi folks.
Just lurking to make sure this does not get out of hand.


Thanks,
In Christ,
Ed

 

[dallasapple]

It's a good thing that's not what submission means then.

If you go by the DEFINITION of submission..then take hes her authority and add in she is to submit to him in everything and he "ultimately" gets final "say"..YES in that dynmanc if the HUSBAND decided he thought it was safer or better for his wife and unborn child not to be exposed to the medicine or procedure to ease her pain in labor she would be "required' to submit to that decision ..or else she isnt SUBMITTING and cant say she "submits" to him or that he gets "final "say..that would be against HIS wishes..which isnt 'submitting"..

And please dont say she is submitting by considering his wishes..but deciding otherwise..everyone does that in every relationship..

Dallas

 

[Psalm63]

Interesting...from what I've gathered, a lot of support for biblical equality, seems to be in learning the original languages. Now that women are "allowed" to study the scriptures, I wonder if gender equality will eventually be very much the norm amongst Christians?
A lot of English translations I think have been used to give a male bias, scripture has been added to and changed. One reason I won't go anywhere near the KJV of the bible, it's one of the worst bibles for it. That and the NLT. King James was certainly not a nice man, in fact one of the worst mysogynists who ever mounted the British throne.

Oh yeah, and I know about other interpretations of head, thanks (translated in greek as kephale)/ Various commentators, even some as far back as the 1950s have said that people like Paul, purposely avoided words such as kephale for head, if there was any suggestion of authority or ruling.

Assigning a final decision maker or boss in a marriage never did make much logical sense to me. And I don't think it's just about blind faith, to me I think God's principles in relationships do make logical sense My parents both preach the traditionalist view on marriage if you ask them about it, although ironically, I don't think it's ever been practiced in reality. I think when 2 people love each other and serve one another and are focused on pleasing God, the whole focus on "who makes the final decisions" seems pretty futile to me.

Nowhere in the bible have I seen a couple where the wife must act on the husband's final decision and seek his permission for everything. Including Abraham and Sarah. In fact, God pretty much resigned himself to instructing Abraham to doing whatever his wife suggested in Genesis 21:12 when it came to Issac. Just earlier on, she instructs him to get rid of "that slave woman and her son." She doesn't cower and plead for his permission This whole thing about "final decision making" I think has become a contentious issue since certain interpretations of Paul's epistles came along. Many of the women in the OT I think actually seem quite bold and confident, compared to the placid type of woman some churches today like to try and promote.

But yeah, I started this thread as I just wondered what the general opinion was on here. Not really interested in debating, I have my views, others have theirs

Wish I had your insight before I married!!! Kudos!

I spent some time looking at Sara too as she is given as a "role model" in 1 Peter 3 and found the same thing you did. Actually, I really enjoyed Katharine Bushnell's chapters on Sara- she show how Sara matured over the course of her marriage to Abraham to the point where Abraham did what Sara said even though it "greatly displeased him".

In reading through your thread, I was really encouraged by how many people live in equal egalitarian marriages (even if they put on a sheepskin of practicing unilateral "wife submission").

 

[Edial]

Sometimes I wish I was married so I could post here.

Interesting thread.

 

[dallasapple]

Sometimes I wish I was married so I could post here.

Interesting thread.

Well we have grandfathered in some people..Cant some unmarrieds be allowed something like "guest appearences"?

You have been married before right?..Im sorry that should "count" for some allowance for some "guest" appearences in my book..

It wont bother me..I dont know about others..

Dallas