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Christian Fundamentalists Appreciate Life

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LittleNipper

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So the Pope declaring that killing Muslims would earn a Christian a place in heaven....Crusaders killing and eating Saracen civilians....Crusaders rampaging through Jerusalem killing at will (Including other Christians)...that was what?

"He started it" is not an acceptable excuse.

Check the Battle of Tours 732. The Cusades began in 1095. The Moslems invaded Palestine in 638 AD. They were the aggressors.

Killing does not earn anyone a place in heaven. That pope was over-stepping his bounds.
 
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LittleNipper

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The problem with your argument is that it costs more to execute a prisoner than to jail him for life. So why should life not win out (especially since your thread is about how you have respect for life), especially when we occasionally find innocent men have been executed?

One has already spent money in the courts. to electocute a guy is really cheap.
Lethal Injection - Execution by lethal injection is the most common method used to put condemned inmates to death today. It is achieved by the intravenous delivery of a deadly quantity of three different drugs. The inmate is placed on a gurney and his ankles and wrists are restrained. A regular saline IV line is started in both arms. Upon the signal of the warden, a large dose of sodium thiopental (a common hospital anesthetic) is delivered, causing unconsciousness. This is followed by pancuronium bromide, which is a muscle-relaxer which paralyzes the lungs and diaphragm. This causes the inmate's respiration to slow significantly. Finally, potassium chloride is introduced into the IV, which causes a fatal cardiac arrest. Death usually occurs approximately 7 minutes after the lethal injection begins. According to the Texas Department of Criminal Justice, the cost for the drugs used in lethal injection is $86.08.Electrocution - This method of execution involves using a direct application of electric current to the inmate to cause brain death. The inmate's head is shaved so that an electrode will make direct contact against their skull, while a leg is shaved for the placement of an electrode there as well. The inmate is strapped to the electric chair, which is not actually electrified, but serves to restrain the inmate as the current from the electrodes are applied. The electric current comes from the head electrode at an intensity between 1,500 and 2,250 volts for a period lasting 30 seconds to a full minute. This is then followed by alternating voltages of varying intensity for another minute. The current exits the body via the leg electrode, much in a manner that lightning would seek to hit the ground. The neurons of the inmate's brain are overwhelmed by the current immediately, rendering the inmate brain dead within milliseconds. The body is likely to change color and the flesh may catch fire. There is usually a smell of burning skin after a person is electrocuted, which led many states to shift to lethal injections.Gas Chamber - When a condemned inmate is executed by lethal gas, the prisoner is restrained in a chair inside an air-tight chamber. The executioner opens a valve which allows hydrochloric acid to flow into a pan behind the chair. He then adds a quantity of potassium cyanide or sodium cyanide crystals into the acid by pulling a lever. The resulting chemical interaction produces white puffy clouds of lethal hydrocyanic gas. This gas affects the ability of the body to process blood hemoglobin and unconsciousness generally occurs within a few seconds after the prisoner takes a breath. If the prisoner tries to hold their breath, the process can take much longer and can cause convulsions. It is comparable to having a severe heart attack. After the prisoner is pronounced dead, usually within five to fifteen minutes, air filters are turned on and corrections officers wearing gas masks enter the chamber to confirm death. The body is decontaminated with bleach solutions and the body must be decontaminated before being handled by an undertaker. The gas chamber is now only available as an option to inmates in California and Arizona. Most states which once used lethal gas abandoned the method in favor of lethal injection due to the difficulty of safely maintaining these facilities, some of which were shown to be at risk for leaks.Hanging - The condemned prisoner is weighed prior to the execution. A specific amount of force must be applied to the neck in relation to the weight of the inmate. If this is properly done, death is by dislocation of the third or fourth cervical vertebrae. The noose is placed behind the prisoners left ear so as to snap the neck upon dropping when the trap door opens. If not precisely done, the inmate will strangle to death on the rope, die from lack of blood to the brain, or if dropped too far, decapitation can occur. This is rare though and most inmates died from instantaneous broken necks. Today, hanging is only available as an option to condemned inmates in Washington State.Firing Squad - Execution by a firing squad usually involves a team of five shooters, only some of whom use real bullets with others using blanks. The team aims for the trunk of the body, as a target is placed on the heart of the condemned inmate. Currently this method is only used in Utah, but may be dropped from availability in that state in the near future.
 
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Maren

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Check the Battle of Tours 732. The Cusades began in 1095. The Moslems invaded Palestine in 638 AD. They were the aggressors.

Killing does not earn anyone a place in heaven. That pope was over-stepping his bounds.

But that is somewhat the point. The Crusades were much like if the British decided in 100 years or so that it is time to take America back because it really belongs to them, or if the Muslims invaded Spain because they believe it belongs to them and was unlawfully taken during the Crusades. If Christians were going to take Palestine back from the invaders they should have done it in the 7th century and not 4 centuries later after they had generations of families that had claimed Palestine as their home. This is doubly true because the Crusades weren't aimed at giving Palestine back to the Jews but rather to secure it for Rome.
 
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Maren

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One has already spent money in the courts. to electocute a guy is really cheap.
Lethal Injection - Execution by lethal injection is the most common method used to put condemned inmates to death today. It is achieved by the intravenous delivery of a deadly quantity of three different drugs. The inmate is placed on a gurney and his ankles and wrists are restrained. A regular saline IV line is started in both arms. Upon the signal of the warden, a large dose of sodium thiopental (a common hospital anesthetic) is delivered, causing unconsciousness. This is followed by pancuronium bromide, which is a muscle-relaxer which paralyzes the lungs and diaphragm. This causes the inmate's respiration to slow significantly. Finally, potassium chloride is introduced into the IV, which causes a fatal cardiac arrest. Death usually occurs approximately 7 minutes after the lethal injection begins. According to the Texas Department of Criminal Justice, the cost for the drugs used in lethal injection is $86.08.Electrocution - This method of execution involves using a direct application of electric current to the inmate to cause brain death. The inmate's head is shaved so that an electrode will make direct contact against their skull, while a leg is shaved for the placement of an electrode there as well. The inmate is strapped to the electric chair, which is not actually electrified, but serves to restrain the inmate as the current from the electrodes are applied. The electric current comes from the head electrode at an intensity between 1,500 and 2,250 volts for a period lasting 30 seconds to a full minute. This is then followed by alternating voltages of varying intensity for another minute. The current exits the body via the leg electrode, much in a manner that lightning would seek to hit the ground. The neurons of the inmate's brain are overwhelmed by the current immediately, rendering the inmate brain dead within milliseconds. The body is likely to change color and the flesh may catch fire. There is usually a smell of burning skin after a person is electrocuted, which led many states to shift to lethal injections.Gas Chamber - When a condemned inmate is executed by lethal gas, the prisoner is restrained in a chair inside an air-tight chamber. The executioner opens a valve which allows hydrochloric acid to flow into a pan behind the chair. He then adds a quantity of potassium cyanide or sodium cyanide crystals into the acid by pulling a lever. The resulting chemical interaction produces white puffy clouds of lethal hydrocyanic gas. This gas affects the ability of the body to process blood hemoglobin and unconsciousness generally occurs within a few seconds after the prisoner takes a breath. If the prisoner tries to hold their breath, the process can take much longer and can cause convulsions. It is comparable to having a severe heart attack. After the prisoner is pronounced dead, usually within five to fifteen minutes, air filters are turned on and corrections officers wearing gas masks enter the chamber to confirm death. The body is decontaminated with bleach solutions and the body must be decontaminated before being handled by an undertaker. The gas chamber is now only available as an option to inmates in California and Arizona. Most states which once used lethal gas abandoned the method in favor of lethal injection due to the difficulty of safely maintaining these facilities, some of which were shown to be at risk for leaks.Hanging - The condemned prisoner is weighed prior to the execution. A specific amount of force must be applied to the neck in relation to the weight of the inmate. If this is properly done, death is by dislocation of the third or fourth cervical vertebrae. The noose is placed behind the prisoners left ear so as to snap the neck upon dropping when the trap door opens. If not precisely done, the inmate will strangle to death on the rope, die from lack of blood to the brain, or if dropped too far, decapitation can occur. This is rare though and most inmates died from instantaneous broken necks. Today, hanging is only available as an option to condemned inmates in Washington State.Firing Squad - Execution by a firing squad usually involves a team of five shooters, only some of whom use real bullets with others using blanks. The team aims for the trunk of the body, as a target is placed on the heart of the condemned inmate. Currently this method is only used in Utah, but may be dropped from availability in that state in the near future.

It doesn't matter how cheap the execution is, the fact remains that we spend more on those who are executed than we do on those that spend life in prison. The money won't be spent in the courts if we don't condemn them to death.

Secondly, you totally ignored the idea that we occasionally execute innocent men. If you were truly dedicated to life, it would be more important to see the one innocent man not die (so he can be exonerated later) than to see one hundred guilty men die.
 
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Steezie

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Check the Battle of Tours 732. The Cusades began in 1095. The Moslems invaded Palestine in 638 AD. They were the aggressors.
And what exactly gave Europe claim to Palestine?

Again, assuming that were true, does that give Europeans the right to (essentially) massacre Saracens? Again "He started it" is not a viable excuse.

Killing does not earn anyone a place in heaven. That pope was over-stepping his bounds.
Ah ok so its OK to kill in war if YOU agree with the war.
 
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LittleNipper

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But that is somewhat the point. The Crusades were much like if the British decided in 100 years or so that it is time to take America back because it really belongs to them, or if the Muslims invaded Spain because they believe it belongs to them and was unlawfully taken during the Crusades. If Christians were going to take Palestine back from the invaders they should have done it in the 7th century and not 4 centuries later after they had generations of families that had claimed Palestine as their home. This is doubly true because the Crusades weren't aimed at giving Palestine back to the Jews but rather to secure it for Rome.

Sorry, I disagree. And the reality is that the Moslems began to prevent Christians from visiting what were considered holy sites. It would be the same if Israel stopped Moslems from going to the Dome of the Rock...
 
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keith99

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What’s so great about appreciating life?

Nothing as far as I can see. Now building a life worth appreciating seems like a good idea to me. Mind you, that does not mean a life of pure hedonism. At least for me a life worth appreciating is one I can look upon and see that I have accomplished something.
 
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LittleNipper

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And what exactly gave Europe claim to Palestine?

Again, assuming that were true, does that give Europeans the right to (essentially) massacre Saracens? Again "He started it" is not a viable excuse.

Ah ok so its OK to kill in war if YOU agree with the war.

If one is defending one's own life or that of a neighbor, yes... And the Saracens were not invaders? You are not very consistant.
 
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Mling

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Wow...I've never seen anybody openly *admit* that they really do believe life begins at conception, ends at birth, and starts up again in old age.

Wow...all life should respected...unless the person has already been born and does something I don't like, in which case, it's ok to kill them.
 
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Maren

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Sorry, I disagree. And the reality is that the Moslems began to prevent Christians from visiting what were considered holy sites. It would be the same if Israel stopped Moslems from going to the Dome of the Rock...

I'm not surprised that you disagree. Yet, from what I recall of my study, the primary reason they discontinued allowing Christians to visit the holy sites, which was allowed for the first few centuries after the Muslims took the territory, is because of the nuisance many of the Christians made of themselves when they visited.
 
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Phylogeny

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It seems that some people believe all life is NOT sacred. And that one's life value can be depleted by crimes they commit. A convicted killer or criminal's life is no longer valued since it is "ok" to execute them. And war is ok as long as 'they started it' (however dubious the claim). LOL, my mom wouldn't let me get away with that excuse! :D

And I'm not buying that whole "they started the war" four centuries ago and we just came and finished it 400 years later. Does that mean that all those Mexicans who are slipping into CA illegally are actually just "retaking" their land since CA was part of Mexican 150 years ago? :)
 
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Verv

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I think I might be a Christian fundamentalist. At least, I hope that I am.

I also believe war is neessary sometimes.

I support euthanasia, though, and view it as something neessary in an age where we have too much medical technology artificially keeping us alive.

I think more people should smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol in order to decrease the average life span.
 
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Alunyel

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I don't really see how anyone that genuinely believes in an infinite afterlife can truly appreciate life.

Knowing my life is limited gives meaning to the relatively short time I get to spend alive. Although at the end I'll die and that's that, it's that fact that lets me see just how valuable the life I do have is.

Whereas the very thought of living forever is spine-chilling. Whether you go to Heaven or Hell, you're ultimately stuck there for eternity. Eternity. Forever. It's a very long time, wither burning in a lake of fire, or living in pure bliss, days would become years, years would become centuries. You'd just grow stagnant, wherever you ended up. In Hell, you got used to the torture ages ago, now it's just boring. In Heaven, you've done everything you wanted to do. And done it again. And again. And again. Three million years later and you've done it all more times than you can count and again, you're just left stagnating, forever.

Death gives life meaning, belief in an eternal afterlife takes away that urgency and importance life has. Who cares about life if you're going to live forever, eh?

Look at it this way, if a man has infinite burgers, he'd enjoy it for a while, but eventually he'd be sick of burgers. If there was a homeless man, who hadn't eaten for days, then begged for enough to get himself a burger, that one burger would mean a lot more to him than the infinite burgers meant to the other man.
 
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Verv

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I don't really see how anyone that genuinely believes in an infinite afterlife can truly appreciate life.

Knowing my life is limited gives meaning to the relatively short time I get to spend alive. Although at the end I'll die and that's that, it's that fact that lets me see just how valuable the life I do have is.

Whereas the very thought of living forever is spine-chilling. Whether you go to Heaven or Hell, you're ultimately stuck there for eternity. Eternity. Forever. It's a very long time, wither burning in a lake of fire, or living in pure bliss, days would become years, years would become centuries. You'd just grow stagnant, wherever you ended up. In Hell, you got used to the torture ages ago, now it's just boring. In Heaven, you've done everything you wanted to do. And done it again. And again. And again. Three million years later and you've done it all more times than you can count and again, you're just left stagnating, forever.

Death gives life meaning, belief in an eternal afterlife takes away that urgency and importance life has. Who cares about life if you're going to live forever, eh?

Look at it this way, if a man has infinite burgers, he'd enjoy it for a while, but eventually he'd be sick of burgers. If there was a homeless man, who hadn't eaten for days, then begged for enough to get himself a burger, that one burger would mean a lot more to him than the infinite burgers meant to the other man.

Life is not about pleasure.

Life is about being productive and serving others and God.

Your view of life is too selfish for my tastes -- I disagree with the idea that we ought to seek pleasure over real concrete service to our neighbors.
 
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Alunyel

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When did I say "Life is about pleasure."?

Seriously, I didn't say anything even remotely like that.

Don't put words in my mouth that I didn't actually say, and then say my view on life is selfish.

Read the post and reply to it properly. <staff edit>.

And since when was life about serving God, anyway? I don't serve God, don't even believe he exists, does that make my life meaningless?
 
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cantata

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Life is not about pleasure.

Life is about being productive and serving others and God.

Your view of life is too selfish for my tastes -- I disagree with the idea that we ought to seek pleasure over real concrete service to our neighbors.

How do you serve your neighbours when you’re in heaven?

If life in heaven is of infinite duration, and life on earth is of finite duration, then at most, only 1/&#8734; of your entire life can be devoted to serving your neighbours. The other (&#8734;-1)/&#8734; of your life is just, what? Hanging around telling God how awesome she is?
 
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Steezie

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Life is not about pleasure.

Life is about being productive and serving others and God.
And my views on life can be summed up in the world's oldest written story.

Gilgamesh, where are you roaming?
The life that you are seeking you will not find.
When the gods created human beings, they kept everlasting life for themselves and gave us death

So Gilgamesh, accept your fate.
Each day, bathe in warm water and wear clean clothes.
Fill your stomach with delicious food.
Play, sing, dance, and be happy both day and night.

Delight in the pleasures your wife brings you and cherish the little child that holds your hand
Make every day a feast of rejoicing!
This is the task that the gods have set before all human beings.
This is the life you should seek, for this is the best life a mortal can hope to achieve.


This is what I see life as being about, why is that so wrong?
 
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