Christian Evolutionist

[Late_Cretaceous]

Psalm 111:10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever."

The absence of God (or at the least, the absence of His necessity) is the beginning of evolution.

Of course that could be said for any scientific theory.
Can you name one scientific theory that requires God?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Interesting... And here's what I actually said,
I merely raised the question, why believe in evolution if you're a Christian? Not, you'd better believe in creationism or you'll go to hell!

But hey, thanks for trying to put words in my mouth by association.

Now let's look at what I actually said:

"And yet this is what Creationism, in its worst incarnations, does. Proclaiming the Young Earth, Global Flood, etc., as unquestionable articles of faith. Your SOUL is on the line!"

I was not putting words in your mouth; it's not always about you.

 

[MSBS]

Well, if you claim that you don't want to start by throwing God out of the picture, from a Christian perspective that is, then why evolution? If creatures look like they are very complicated, barely a mistake in their form for what they do, then why the big complicated evolutionary explination? Why didn't God just design them so complicated and suited for their purposes? Evolution seems like a very complicated and unnecessary step if you already have God in the picture.

I think you are really missing the whole point of science. There is a saying, and I forget who said it first, that "God does not submit to tests." In other words, we cannot test the supernatural. Now science is a way of looking at the world, a way of finding things out, and it is a powerful intellectual tool, but in order for it to work, you have to be able to test your theories. If you can't they are useless. If I were to come up with a theory that trees grow because of an invisible and undetectable spirit force, what good is it? There is no way to check it out, to verify it one way or the other, or for it to predict anything. It might be true, but, from a scientific standpoint, it's useless.

So you see, science doesn't throw out the supernatural, it just says that we can't test it, and the so far as science is a tool to understand things, we just can't say anything about it. We can only theorize about and experiment on natural things, not the supernatural.

Now then, there are things that we can use science to understand. Evolution is one of them. No one came up with it to deny God or to prove some philosophical point, they came up with it because that is were the evidence pointed. This complicated theory is basically a description of what it looks like has happened and is happening in the world, and as a Christian the why or why not of believing in it has to do with looking at God's creation and believing what it is telling you. And if you think it conflicts with your understanding of the bible then maybe you should take St. Augustine's advice:

If anyone shall set the authority of Holy Writ against clear and manifest reason, he who does this knows not what he has undertaken; for he opposes to the truth not the meaning of the Bible, which is beyond his comprehension, but rather his own interpretation; not what is in the Bible, but what he has found in himself and imagines to be there.

St. Augustine [in the seventh letter to Marcellinus]

It's not about whether or not you need evolution, it's that evolution is what it looks like happened.

 

[Mistermystery]

Bumping,

 

[Ryder]

So you basically believe because you *fear* God? Is that the basis of your belief? And you even call it healthy?

**Woosh** There went the whole notion I had of Christianity.

Fear can mean respect. A good son has a healthy 'fear' of his father, he's afraid to dishonor or shame his father.

 

[nvxplorer]

Fear can mean respect. A good son has a healthy 'fear' of his father, he's afraid to dishonor or shame his father.

Respect can also come from love or admiration. If someone acts out of fear, they are using the base instinct of self-preservation. This is a reflection on the person holding the fear, not the father who should be respected. IMO, this is anything but healthy. Respect must be earned. It cannot be commanded.

 

[Mistermystery]

Fear can mean respect. A good son has a healthy 'fear' of his father, he's afraid to dishonor or shame his father.

Well I suppose that's one posibility (albeit a farfetched on if you ask me). Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Ryder]

Evolution is a scientific theory. The only "appeal" is that it works. It is the only scientific explanation for the distribution and diversity of life on earth that explains the evidence. For science, it is irrelevant whether or not a theory is emotionally pleasing, all that matters is that it works.

“…evolution is the backbone of biology and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on unproven theory. Is it then a science or a faith? Belief in the theory of evolution is thus exactly parallel to belief in special creation. Both are concepts which the believers know to be true, but neither, up to the present, has been capable of proof.” L.H. Matthews, Introduction to Origin of the Species, by Charles Darwin (1971 edition), pp. x, xi.

[The theory of evolution] "forms a satisfactory faith on which to base our interpretation of nature." Harrison Matthews. Introduction to Origin of Species (1977 edition) p. xxii.

“The theory of evolution is impossible. At base, in spite of appearances, no one any longer believes in it….Evolution is a kind of dogma which the priests no longer believe, but which they maintain for their people.” Paul Lemoine. Encyclopedie Francaise 1937 edition. (President of the Geological Society of France and director of the Natural History Museum in Paris.)

"The facts must mold the theories, not the theories the facts . . I am most critical of my biologist friends in this matter. Try telling a biologist that, impartially judged among other accepted theories of science, such as the theory of relativity, it seems to you that the theory of natural selection has a very uncertain, hypothetical status, and watch his reaction. I'll bet you that he gets red in the face. This is `religion,' not `science,' with him." Burton, "The Human Side of the Physiologist: Prejudice and Poetry," Physiologist 2 (1957).

 

[random_guy]

“…evolution is the backbone of biology and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on unproven theory. Is it then a science or a faith? Belief in the theory of evolution is thus exactly parallel to belief in special creation. Both are concepts which the believers know to be true, but neither, up to the present, has been capable of proof.” L.H. Matthews, Introduction to Origin of the Species, by Charles Darwin (1971 edition), pp. x, xi.

[The theory of evolution] "forms a satisfactory faith on which to base our interpretation of nature." Harrison Matthews. Introduction to Origin of Species (1977 edition) p. xxii.

“The theory of evolution is impossible. At base, in spite of appearances, no one any longer believes in it….Evolution is a kind of dogma which the priests no longer believe, but which they maintain for their people.” Paul Lemoine. Encyclopedie Francaise 1937 edition. (President of the Geological Society of France and director of the Natural History Museum in Paris.)

"The facts must mold the theories, not the theories the facts . . I am most critical of my biologist friends in this matter. Try telling a biologist that, impartially judged among other accepted theories of science, such as the theory of relativity, it seems to you that the theory of natural selection has a very uncertain, hypothetical status, and watch his reaction. I'll bet you that he gets red in the face. This is `religion,' not `science,' with him." Burton, "The Human Side of the Physiologist: Prejudice and Poetry," Physiologist 2 (1957).

So you can quote several people (the most recent is 30 years ago) that don't believe in evolution. Find me one college with a biology department that doubts evolution. If evolution wasn't the backbone of modern biology, you should be able to find 1 acreditted college that disbelieves in evolution.

 

[Andrea77]

As a christian I do not accept evolution simply because of its roots.

Jesus said in Matthew 7:15-20

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognise them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognise them.

If evolution is the fruit of a bad tree a christian should not accept it.


The concept of evolution did not originate with Charles Darwin. It
has been the essential ingredient of all pagan religions and
philosophies from time immemorial (e.g., atomism, pantheism, stoicism,
gnosticism and all other humanistic and polytheistic systems). All
beliefs which assume the ultimacy of the space/time/matter universe,
presupposing that the universe has existed from eternity, are
fundamentally evolutionary systems. The cosmos, with its innate laws and
forces, is the only ultimate reality. Depending on the sophistication of
the system, the forces of the universe may be personified as gods and
goddesses who organized the eternal chaotic cosmos into its present form
(as in ancient Babylonian and Egyptian religions), or else may
themselves be invested with organizing capabilities (as in modern
scientific evolutionism). In all such cases, these are merely different
varieties of the fundamental evolutionist world view, the essential
feature of which is the denial that there is one true God and Creator of
all things.

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/evolreli.txt

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/evolmore.htm

 

[Mistermystery]

Okay andrea, now it just got annoying. Can you also form your own opinion/questions/ideas in your own words, instead of mindlessly copying it from other websites?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Okay andrea, now it just got annoying. Can you also form your own opinion/questions/ideas in your own words, instead of mindlessly copying it from other websites?

An original thought would be nice, or at the very least, a source that's not quite as prone to wacked-out conspiracy theories.

The first rule of plagiarism is to only steal ideas from a source worth stealing them from.

 

[Ryder]

Try discussing, or not, what she brought up instead of hitting her with nasty remarks asap...

 

[random_guy]

As a christian I do not accept evolution simply because of its roots.

Jesus said in Matthew 7:15-20

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognise them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognise them.

If evolution is the fruit of a bad tree a christian should not accept it.


The concept of evolution did not originate with Charles Darwin. It
has been the essential ingredient of all pagan religions and
philosophies from time immemorial (e.g., atomism, pantheism, stoicism,
gnosticism and all other humanistic and polytheistic systems). All
beliefs which assume the ultimacy of the space/time/matter universe,
presupposing that the universe has existed from eternity, are
fundamentally evolutionary systems. The cosmos, with its innate laws and
forces, is the only ultimate reality. Depending on the sophistication of
the system, the forces of the universe may be personified as gods and
goddesses who organized the eternal chaotic cosmos into its present form
(as in ancient Babylonian and Egyptian religions), or else may
themselves be invested with organizing capabilities (as in modern
scientific evolutionism). In all such cases, these are merely different
varieties of the fundamental evolutionist world view, the essential
feature of which is the denial that there is one true God and Creator of
all things.

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/evolreli.txt

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/evolmore.htm

So you believe that if you're a good Christian, you should reject Evolution? You would also be against sending your kids to pagan schools such as Notre Dame, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, BYU, Baylor University, etc...?

Just for fun, here's Baylor University's statement on evolution:

"Evolution, a foundational principle of modern biology, is supported by overwhelming scientific evidence and is accepted by the vast majority of scientists. Because it is fundamental to the understanding of modern biology, the faculty in the Biology Department at Baylor University, Waco, TX, teach evolution throughout the biology curriculum. We are in accordance with the American Association for Advancement of Science's statement on evolution. We are a science department, so we do not teach alternative hypotheses or philosophically deduced theories that cannot be tested rigorously."

And here's a statement about Baylor:

Chartered in 1845 by the Republic of Texas and affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of Texas, Baylor is the oldest institution of higher learning in the state and the largest Baptist university in the world.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

I suppose a good christian believes in bible code, but does not accept evolutionary theory. It almost makes me want to convert to some other religion.

 

[random_guy]

I suppose a good christian believes in bible code, but does not accept evolutionary theory. It almost makes me want to convert to some other religion.

I've noticed that. The more times I spend on Christian Forums, the less it makes me proud to be a Christian. It's weird that the fundamentalists think that accepting an Old Earth leads down a slippery slope of doubt and to atheism, but to me, it's the fundamentalists that people away from Christianity.

If evolution was declared to be anti-Christian and anti-Biblical by all Christian faiths, how many scientists would stop being Christian? How many people would stop being Christian?

 

[Andrea77]

So you believe that if you're a good Christian, you should reject Evolution? You would also be against sending your kids to pagan schools such as Notre Dame, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, BYU, Baylor University, etc...?

Just for fun, here's Baylor University's statement on evolution:


And here's a statement about Baylor:

I do not follow man made denomanations as most of them distort the teachings of Christ. So the above means nothing to me.

 

[In A Perfect World]

I do not follow man made denomanations as most of them distort the teachings of Christ. So the above means nothing to me.

How does one distort the teachings of Christ any more than you may be said to do?

 

[Nathan Poe]

If evolution was declared to be anti-Christian and anti-Biblical by all Christian faiths, how many scientists would stop being Christian? How many people would stop being Christian?

Replace "all Christian" with "Fundamentalist" and ask: How many already have?

 

[Nathan Poe]

I do not follow man made denomanations as most of them distort the teachings of Christ. So the above means nothing to me.

I take it you find www.jesus-is-lord.com to be the pure unadulterated word of Christ?