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Revelation, yes. I think it’s historic allegory
Interesting, what you think is important is outward show, nothing has been said about truth.
Tell me, did Jesus get crucified, was he buried in a tomb and did he physically rise from the dead?
The Quran say he did not.
So which is right?
Please state your evidence for your views.
I know this view, and I don’t like it. There are other words of Jesus that emphasize the need to be vigilant and do hard work no matter what, serving God who sees everything at all times. What difference does it make what condition the church or the world is at?
Otherwise, if you expect the church to be in a decaying state, then it’s normalized in your mind and you aren’t motivated to try and change it?
As they say about your house, if you don’t fix a broken light switch, a blown away siding, don’t replace a broken window instead covering it with cardboard and so on, then over time you trash your home, because you in your mind accepted that it’s okay for it to be in disrepair…
The book of Revelation is like a highly condensed overview of mans history but also reveals how everything will end.
Even if so, maybe in 100,000 years from now?
We certainly are to follow Christ regardless of what most other people are doing. That's very fundamental for us. We don't follow Him only because it's what most everyone around us is doing. Maybe that's not quite what you are getting at in that first paragraph. But here's more:
And we are definitely instructed to help each other, and also to exhort/encourage each other, our brothers and sisters.
There's a lot of that here on Christian Forums.
And there's plenty in a church, in the ones I've seen.
The pastor is exhorting and/or encouraging us every Sunday. And we also exhort each other at times, and also encourage each other. And help each other.
It's full of warmth and love, too.
I remember we moved here to a new city and joined a church, and my wife had to had a minor procedure on a knee not long after we joined, like just a month or 2, and I was still trying to remember names, and to our surprise a member showed up with a wonderful casserole for us, unannounced (or at least to me).
could be .... but how long will one live .... until their fate is sealed through their earthly death?
Our life is very short no matter what. 1 day or 36,500 days. Quite limited. “Life is but a blink of an eye”, my 90 years old grandma used to say.
My point is, stressing the end of the world teaching at church is totally wrong in my opinion. A grand mistake. The church should adapt a different motto, “Live as if there will never be an end to this world”… Cause it might very well be for you! Otherwise, it’s instilled in the Christian minds of every generation that today or tomorrow it’s all going to burn….
Who will ever want to do anything when taught that???
All productive goals get cancelled out…
Careless about people around, careless about the environment… Because who cares? The hotel is getting demolished this Sunday, spit on the floor and break the sink… Doesn’t matter. I’m checking out tomorrow anyway
At my church, when there's a baptism, there is loud cheering. Sometimes baptisms don't happen on a Sunday morning, sometimes there's a special service at a different time one or more times a year. Once a year, we go to a park, have a meal, the worship band plays on stage, and we do the baptisms in the lake. A guy I prayed for 15 years ago got baptized this year at one of those, I made sure I was going to be there to see it happen.In a protestant Christian church, when there are public conversions (or at least confessing/declaration of conversions), it’s a low-key event. Yes there could be clapping and some happy exclamations, but it all basically culminates with presenting a lootbag of books to the new believers. In some cases, there would be an Alfa course to attend afterwards. Or if you leave and never come back, chances are, you’re forgotten. In Orthodox or Catholic church, I’ve never witnessed a public conversion, only baptisms which are done postfactum.
Which is also one of the key weaknesses of Islam - as I understand it, they believe that forgiveness for sins comparable to what Christians are promised is too good to be true. Christians get guaranteed forgiveness when we sincerely turn away from our sins and ask for it.Then the whole mosque would want to congratulate, hug and kiss the man/woman…. (well, pre-2020). They would be so eager to tell you, “Oh brother, I envy you because today you are pure, cleansed of all your previous sin, in a better standing than all of us here who have been sinning, you have a clean slate”. The people really impress this thought upon you.
If a Christian church is a small one, you have that built-in. If it's a big one, you generally need to seek a smaller group, but they're advertised, available, and very supportive when you join. These are of course, the best examples, as I'm sure you are also sharing a "best example" from Islam.Overall, they immediately surround you with a robust network of support as a closed-knit community.
Honestly, I grew up with a couple of Muslim guys. The only difference between them and the other guys our age was they didn't eat pork products, and their dad got them up at 5:00 AM to do their morning prayers. That's it. They did the same stuff most other people did, including drinking beer while underage.So…. this tells me that Islam is practiced way more deeply and sincerely than Christianity…. Christians can sit on pews and check their emails on smartphones during service…. You can’t imagine a Muslim reach for their phone during a Juma salaat…. Islam is an all-encompassing mindset and way of life to many Muslims, but Christianity is often a nominal Sunday activity for Christians…
In Muslim countries, it’s Islam or mostly Islam that directs the public and private life. In Christian or post-Christian countries it’s just an add-on of convenience to otherwise secular life, an add-on that’s mostly kept private.
I've run into Muslims like this too. It's almost as though they run by a script when trying to convert you. They tend to be less interested in actually becoming friends with you when they see that you're firm in your beliefs.Muslims want to know your religion first second they meet you, and learning you’re part of the umma, they turn on the “you’re one of us” mode on high gear, kinly opening up to you… Or, the “let me tell you what you’re missing” mode if you’re not. Christians can work with you side-by-side for 10 years and you’d never even once suspect they’re a Christian….
To put it mildly. Disownment, death threats, being beaten and stripped naked - all of these have been reported.Of course, how apostasy is treated in these two religions today is a whole different subjectAn ignorant kafir or an ex-Muslim kafir, well, not the same thing… no more ir-Rahman ir-Raheem!
You've identified a serious problem with so-called Christianity. Way too many "conversions" are simply mental assent to a set of facts. Compare the very start of the church in the book of Acts with what we see today.Your thoughts about the below??
One striking difference I find between Christian and Muslim practice is conversions… (Or reverting as Muslims like to say, who consider all infants to be originally born Muslim).
In a protestant Christian church, when there are public conversions (or at least confessing/declaration of conversions), it’s a low-key event. Yes there could be clapping and some happy exclamations, but it all basically culminates with presenting a lootbag of books to the new believers. In some cases, there would be an Alfa course to attend afterwards. Or if you leave and never come back, chances are, you’re forgotten. In Orthodox or Catholic church, I’ve never witnessed a public conversion, only baptisms which are done postfactum. So I have no idea how it’s supposed to happen, probably simply a mental decision in private. Or perhaps the baptisms are the conversions for them. I know there’s some studying involved before you can join the faith, such as “The Law of God” course in the EO churches. For protestants, they love to lead new believers in a short “sinner’s prayer”… But not always. Some only require accepting the fundamental truths of the Gospel by faith.
Well, Muslim public conversions, on the other hand, are always a big deal. Probably the biggest of all… The whole mosque would rhythmically repeat in unison “Takbir - Allahu Akbar!” The conversion would be highly emotional, with the convert crying 9 out of 10 times during the Shahada, even if it’s a rugged man…The imam could be sobbing too, as do half of the mosque…
Then the whole mosque would want to congratulate, hug and kiss the man/woman…. (well, pre-2020). They would be so eager to tell you, “Oh brother, I envy you because today you are pure, cleansed of all your previous sin, in a better standing than all of us here who have been sinning, you have a clean slate”. The people really impress this thought upon you. They would welcome the new Muslim to their homes, invite for lunches, throw parties, shower with gifts (even poor people), provide advice on following the Din and growing in the Iman, joke about a new Muslim name for you, suggest how to dress etc… Genuine and cute. Overall, they immediately surround you with a robust network of support as a closed-knit community. They’re especially extatic if you’re not from a traditionally Muslim nation, firmly believing one day Islam would be accepted world over… A big deal for them… I experienced that, though honestly I never really accepted Islam in its entirety, all I wanted was to try it out. I did have some sincerity.
So…. this tells me that Islam is practiced way more deeply and sincerely than Christianity…. Christians can sit on pews and check their emails on smartphones during service…. You can’t imagine a Muslim reach for their phone during a Juma salaat…. Islam is an all-encompassing mindset and way of life to many Muslims, but Christianity is often a nominal Sunday activity for Christians…
In Muslim countries, it’s Islam or mostly Islam that directs the public and private life. In Christian or post-Christian countries it’s just an add-on of convenience to otherwise secular life, an add-on that’s mostly kept private.
Muslims want to know your religion first second they meet you, and learning you’re part of the umma, they turn on the “you’re one of us” mode on high gear, kinly opening up to you… Or, the “let me tell you what you’re missing” mode if you’re not. Christians can work with you side-by-side for 10 years and you’d never even once suspect they’re a Christian….
Of course, how apostasy is treated in these two religions today is a whole different subjectAn ignorant kafir or an ex-Muslim kafir, well, not the same thing… no more ir-Rahman ir-Raheem!
I don’t know anything for sure about Jesus, I wasn’t there, I’ve never met Him. So this is not a question for me. Anything is possible. It might all be true and even more, or it could all be a myth. I have no idea, have no proof of anything, but sure interesting to investigate more.
At my church, when there's a baptism, there is loud cheering. Sometimes baptisms don't happen on a Sunday morning, sometimes there's a special service at a different time one or more times a year. Once a year, we go to a park, have a meal, the worship band plays on stage, and we do the baptisms in the lake. A guy I prayed for 15 years ago got baptized this year at one of those, I made sure I was going to be there to see it happen.
Which is also one of the key weaknesses of Islam - as I understand it, they believe that forgiveness for sins comparable to what Christians are promised is too good to be true. Christians get guaranteed forgiveness when we sincerely turn away from our sins and ask for it.
If a Christian church is a small one, you have that built-in. If it's a big one, you generally need to seek a smaller group, but they're advertised, available, and very supportive when you join. These are of course, the best examples, as I'm sure you are also sharing a "best example" from Islam.
Honestly, I grew up with a couple of Muslim guys. The only difference between them and the other guys our age was they didn't eat pork products, and their dad got them up at 5:00 AM to do their morning prayers. That's it. They did the same stuff most other people did, including drinking beer while underage.
My brother also worked a 7/11 for a time, in a college town. He saw his share of students from Muslim countries. More than once he would see groups of mideastern women, without hijabs and sloshed, asking if this food or that one had pork in it.
I've run into Muslims like this too. It's almost as though they run by a script when trying to convert you. They tend to be less interested in actually becoming friends with you when they see that you're firm in your beliefs.
To put it mildly. Disownment, death threats, being beaten and stripped naked - all of these have been reported.
You've identified a serious problem with so-called Christianity. Way too many "conversions" are simply mental assent to a set of facts. Compare the very start of the church in the book of Acts with what we see today.
Lord Jesus said that we must be born again. That is the minimum requirement even to see the Kingdom of God. An individual must be convicted of sin, and that is a heart, not a mind thing. Again, the first Christians were "cut to the heart" (Acts 2:37). They said, "What must we do...?"
If you have a church full of people that see Christianity as little more than a social club or "get out of hell free" card, they will be superficial. They will treat others superficially also. At least they won't murder you if you quit being a Christian.
Interesting that you consider the results of other peoples research to be worthless.
Do you do the same with science research, it is only valid if you have proved it?
1 Cor15:12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
No resurrection no Christianity.
So what evidence do you have that proves or disproves the resurrection.
Whether Christians are more or less devout than Muslims in general, and whether their conversions are more or less sincere in general, are unknowable. More to the point, these things are irrelevant to whether the teachings of Christianity and Islam are true or false. One can be sincere about their convictions and still be wrong. I would encourage the OP to investigate the actual claims of Christianity and Islam and decide which hold up better under scrutiny. For me, it's Christianity, and it's not even close.
At my church, when there's a baptism, there is loud cheering. Sometimes baptisms don't happen on a Sunday morning, sometimes there's a special service at a different time one or more times a year. Once a year, we go to a park, have a meal, the worship band plays on stage, and we do the baptisms in the lake. A guy I prayed for 15 years ago got baptized this year at one of those, I made sure I was going to be there to see it happen.
Which is also one of the key weaknesses of Islam - as I understand it, they believe that forgiveness for sins comparable to what Christians are promised is too good to be true. Christians get guaranteed forgiveness when we sincerely turn away from our sins and ask for it.
If a Christian church is a small one, you have that built-in. If it's a big one, you generally need to seek a smaller group, but they're advertised, available, and very supportive when you join. These are of course, the best examples, as I'm sure you are also sharing a "best example" from Islam.
Honestly, I grew up with a couple of Muslim guys. The only difference between them and the other guys our age was they didn't eat pork products, and their dad got them up at 5:00 AM to do their morning prayers. That's it. They did the same stuff most other people did, including drinking beer while underage.
My brother also worked a 7/11 for a time, in a college town. He saw his share of students from Muslim countries. More than once he would see groups of mideastern women, without hijabs and sloshed, asking if this food or that one had pork in it.
I've run into Muslims like this too. It's almost as though they run by a script when trying to convert you. They tend to be less interested in actually becoming friends with you when they see that you're firm in your beliefs.
To put it mildly. Disownment, death threats, being beaten and stripped naked - all of these have been reported.
Which is also one of the key weaknesses of Islam - as I understand it, they believe that forgiveness for sins comparable to what Christians are promised is too good to be true. Christians get guaranteed forgiveness when we sincerely turn away from our sins and ask for it.
The Bible Belt is in the American South.I’ve been to the States several times on work trips and visiting friends. So, more or less briefly. D.C., upstate NY, north west mostly.
It made me really think if Canadian Christianity is not the best representative of Christianity as a whole. Or talking about my experience with Christianity, I should always specify where geographically
American Christians seem to indicate there’s more sincere faith over there… I’ve heard so much about the Bible belt, I guess the southern states and also central prairies up to Montana?
Looking at what has been going back on in the USA our southern neighbour, it seems some extreme views, that are not so much Christian, are taking over. It’s like Christianity is going away from the American life, at least from its front side so to speak…
Anyways, it made me very interested to visit the more deeply Christian regions. Any recommendations? Not superficial nominal multitudes, maybe less percentage but really sincere and true believers???
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