Christian "Apostasy" =unpardonable sin doctrine supposed to learn at young age

[JulieB67]

the book explains the difference between backsliding and apostasy

But you're bringing sin into it. And you seem to think you're an apostate. Have you departed from the truth? Do you no longer believe? Because that is the very definition of apostasy. Someone departing from the truth. Someone forsaking God.

Solomon in all his wisdom tells us there is not one just man that doeth good and sinneth not. So do you think you became an apostate because you sinned after you thought you were saved?

someone can be apostate without knowing also.

I believe that will be the case in the end times when many fall away to worship the false one. They will truly believe they are worshipping the real one. But at this time, I don't believe so. People make the choice to walk away, depart from the truth.

 

[Jacque_Pierre22]

yea (1 Timothy 1:20) once you blaspheme the Holy Spirit; there's nothing you can do

 

[JulieB67]

yea (1 Timothy 1:20) once you blaspheme the Holy Spirit; there's nothing you can do

I personally feel as if it's a permanent state of mind and belief.

Is this you?

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
blasphemy, evil speaking, railing.
From blasphemos; vilification (especially against God) -- blasphemy, evil speaking, railing.

You're basically vilifying the Holy Spirit. Is that your case? That you actually believe that the Holy Spirit is evil?

 

[ThatDumbChicken]

Again, God is the heart knower. Good works come naturally from the heart after true repentance. It's not forced but living how God created us.

I absolutely love this.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness."
Matthew 23:27-28

 

[A New Dawn]

I'm just pointing out info that I didn't know as a child because I wasn't taught right. I never read the Old Testament as a kid or knew they were interconnected with the New Testament, as I said, the footnotes in the New Testament in my Bible didn't reference any of these passages in Leviticus or Numbers either. Sure you need faith to have obedience but that wasn't the point of the post; the point was that there are "unpardonable" sins, and that all it takes is 1 for "apostasy" which I never heard of either as a child; then once apostate you cannot be forgiven. I'm like 90% sure I'm apostate, so it is what it is. I went to a church where the sermon was 10 minutes and my parents didn't encourage me to go to Sunday school so I played video games all day and there was dial up internet; whereas the "elect" are predestined to understand and get it at a young age for the most part, of course , there are exceptions but if God wants you to be saved there will be people in your life that actually care about you understanding the gospel. I'm pretty sure I lied to the Holy Spirit at a young age when I had to give a testimony at church at like age 12 but didn't have one.

I don't believe that there are any sins that Jesus didn't die for, and if He can save you out of unbelief, He can save you out of apostacy. If you are truly saved (and I do believe that the Bible supports OSAS, just not with the heretical side beliefs that some attach to it), and you come back to Biblical agreement with Him through repentance, then He will forgive you. ALL sin was nailed to the cross, not just past sins.

1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I don't know your heart, but I do believe that if you are here, seeking, then you are still His.

 

[A New Dawn]

yea like I said, the entire NT went right over my head because it was all about works and effort , two things that I was told not to worry about in Calvinism , Lutheranism, that I would just somehow do everything right and be forgiven if I failed. yes I'm that dumb. Presbyterianism is more Catholic than anything I came across because it emphasizes works more, has this apostasy/blasphemy of the Holy Spirit doctrine, a point of no return where repentance is impossible, so now the NT makes sense to me now. the NT is written by saints who are on another level; there is no forgiveness for apostates just judgement. each book of the NT gives examples of blasphemies against the Holy Spirit, even intra-denominational stuff I think is blasphemy, if you convert from Calvinism to Lutheranism and start criticizing leaders of the Reformed all the time as a pastime, that's Korah's rebellion sin, apostasy, there's really innumerable ways it happens, that's why it's impossible to avoid without the Holy Spirit in my opinion.

I am interested in understanding how Presbyterianism emphasizes works. The whole gist of Calvinism is that it is based entirely on grace through faith. I have never known a Calvinist or Reformed Christian who claims their salvation was anything they could achieve on their own. Even down to having to "accept" Christ. That is really unheard of in Calvinist or Reformed circles. Perhaps you didn't understand what you were hearing at a young age?

 

[fhansen]

yea like I said, the entire NT went right over my head because it was all about works and effort , two things that I was told not to worry about in Calvinism , Lutheranism, that I would just somehow do everything right and be forgiven if I failed. yes I'm that dumb. Presbyterianism is more Catholic than anything I came across because it emphasizes works more, has this apostasy/blasphemy of the Holy Spirit doctrine, a point of no return where repentance is impossible, so now the NT makes sense to me now. the NT is written by saints who are on another level; there is no forgiveness for apostates just judgement. each book of the NT gives examples of blasphemies against the Holy Spirit, even intra-denominational stuff I think is blasphemy, if you convert from Calvinism to Lutheranism and start criticizing leaders of the Reformed all the time as a pastime, that's Korah's rebellion sin, apostasy, there's really innumerable ways it happens, that's why it's impossible to avoid without the Holy Spirit in my opinion.

Some of the Reformed teachings on justification, especially, have served to muddy the waters on understanding exactly what God wants for and from us. In the ancient churches, once justified, once grafted into the Vine, we begin to partake of and share in God's nature. Our "job" is to continue to value and walk in that relationship, in which case it grows in strength and conviction. IOW, we grow in faith, hope, and, most importantly, love, and sin is increasingly excluded as a result. That's the path we're meant to be on.

There's no sin that cannot be repented of. Unrepentance, itself, is the ultimate sin as it means failure to acknowledge our own sinfulness and our need for God, for His mercy and His ability to overcome that sin in us as we become His people and He puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts.

 

[JulieB67]

but I do believe that if you are here, seeking, then you are still His.

It would seem that way to me as well. It sounds as if the Holy Spirit is working.

not just past sins.

Curious to what your belief is with this verse?


Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

 

[A New Dawn]

Curious to what your belief is with this verse?


Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

According to the commentaries I've read, that part of the verse is speaking to the sins of the OT Jews who lived by the law, which we know is not salvific, but by their act of faith (in the coming Messiah), their sins are paid for.

 

[JulieB67]

According to the commentaries I've read, that part of the verse is speaking to the sins of the OT Jews

Paul is writing this to the saints in Rome though and I see no distinction being made here with these verses

Romans 3:9 "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jew and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;"

Romans 3:22 "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Romans 3:24 "Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"

Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

Romans 3:26 "To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus

but by their act of faith (in the coming Messiah), their sins are paid for.

I just don't see how that fits with these verses when Paul is including everyone in the subject.

Don't want to completely derail this thread though but was just curious.

 

[A New Dawn]

Paul is writing this to the saints in Rome though and I see no distinction being made here with these verses

Romans 3:9 "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jew and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;"

Romans 3:22 "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Romans 3:24 "Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"

Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

Romans 3:26 "To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus

I just don't see how that fits with these verses when Paul is including everyone in the subject.

Don't want to completely derail this thread though but was just curious.

I am not sure where you are going, since I am not seeing the issue you are having with the point I made in my previous post, but if you want to start a the read to discuss the topic, I’d be happy to participate.

 

[Jacque_Pierre22]

I would just read the book, the point of Perseverance of the Saints is that you don't become apostate but I never heard of "apostasy" until recently. apostates never had the Holy Spirit therefore they fall away and cannot pray because God won't listen. so really it's TULIP-A but they don't talk about it much in books, actually it's very rare that they talk about it, even though the churches are supposedly filled with a lot of apostates among the elect. perseverance is by works. I don't know it's simple enough, now that I get it. lack of works means that your theology is wrong too mentally so even if you think you believed you didn't have right doctrine because your works are wrong , so it's like a circular argument but makes sense. anyway some people have to go to hell so that some can go to heaven , so it is what it is I guess.

 

[fhansen]

I would just read the book, the point of Perseverance of the Saints is that you don't become apostate but I never heard of "apostasy" until recently. apostates never had the Holy Spirit therefore they fall away and cannot pray because God won't listen. so really it's TULIP-A but they don't talk about it much in books, actually it's very rare that they talk about it, even though the churches are supposedly filled with a lot of apostates among the elect. perseverance is by works. I don't know it's simple enough, now that I get it. lack of works means that your theology is wrong too mentally so even if you think you believed you didn't have right doctrine because your works are wrong , so it's like a circular argument but makes sense. anyway some people have to go to hell so that some can go to heaven , so it is what it is I guess.

It’s simpler than all that. No one can know with 100% certitude that they’re numbered among either the elect-or the apostate-we cannot predict our own perseverance. We just turn to God in faith, remain turned to Him, picking up our cross daily and following Him to the best we can with our grace/Spirit-enabled ability, repenting and turning back to Him if we’ve backslidden, and let Him determine how we did, with what we’ve been given, at the end of the day.

 

[A New Dawn]

I would just read the book, the point of Perseverance of the Saints is that you don't become apostate but I never heard of "apostasy" until recently. apostates never had the Holy Spirit therefore they fall away and cannot pray because God won't listen. so really it's TULIP-A but they don't talk about it much in books, actually it's very rare that they talk about it, even though the churches are supposedly filled with a lot of apostates among the elect. perseverance is by works. I don't know it's simple enough, now that I get it. lack of works means that your theology is wrong too mentally so even if you think you believed you didn't have right doctrine because your works are wrong , so it's like a circular argument but makes sense. anyway some people have to go to hell so that some can go to heaven , so it is what it is I guess.

What you say is true, but it seems that you are not understanding the purpose or point of the P part of TULIP. Perseverance is HOW you know you are a true believer. It is those who don't have saving faith that fall away. If your heart had been turned to God by God, there is no falling away.

Perseverance demonstrates that you have saving faith, a gift from God.

Can I ask a question? Are you here really seeking answers, or are you here to try to show your unbelief? I am not sure I understand the point of the OP, but would like to so I can really speak to the issue.

 

[David Lamb]

What you say is true, but it seems that you are not understanding the purpose or point of the P part of TULIP. Perseverance is HOW you know you are a true believer. It is those who don't have saving faith that fall away. If your heart had been turned to God by God, there is no falling away.

Perseverance demonstrates that you have saving faith, a gift from God.

Well, John wrote in his first letter:

“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may [continue to] believe in the name of the Son of God.” (1Jo 5:13 NKJV)

He doesn't tell them to wait to the end of their earthly lives, see whether or not the have persevered, and then they will know.

 

[A New Dawn]

Well, John wrote in his first letter:

“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may [continue to] believe in the name of the Son of God.” (1Jo 5:13 NKJV)

He doesn't tell them to wait to the end of their earthly lives, see whether or not the have persevered, and then they will know.

That is true! There are many scriptures that show us we can know, but there are some that don’t understand how continuing to sin plays into that. We will always sin, we will always have times in our life where we are less certain or less active in our belief, which can lead to questions like this. But always being drawn back into communion with Christ is something you can gain strength from.

 

[fhansen]

That is true! There are many scriptures that show us we can know, but there are some that don’t understand how continuing to sin plays into that. We will always sin, we will always have times in our life where we are less certain or less active in our belief, which can lead to questions like this. But always being drawn back into communion with Christ is something you can gain strength from.

And if we remain apart from that communion we’ll be remaining in sin. We cannot willfully, wantonly persist in grave sin, either, and expect to enter heaven.

 

[A New Dawn]

And if we remain apart from that communion we’ll be remaining in sin. We cannot willfully, wantonly persist in grave sin, either, and expect to enter heaven.

I do not agree with this. When God sees one of His chosen going down that path, he disciplines them and calls them to repentance, and if they continue, God continues to discipline them, even to the point of death, so they don’t/can’t fall away.

 

[ozso]

yea (1 Timothy 1:20) once you blaspheme the Holy Spirit; there's nothing you can do

of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme. 1 Timothy 1:20

That sounds like a method of correction. If there was nothing they could do, then how could they learn not to blaspheme. And if it was too late for them there would be no point in them learing it.

One explanation I came across said:

In 1 Timothy 1:20, the phrase "delivered unto Satan" refers to a form of church discipline where individuals who have rejected faith and a good conscience, like Hymenaeus and Alexander, are separated from the Christian community. This action is intended to be a corrective measure, hopefully leading to repentance and a return to the faith, rather than a form of punishment.

And that sounds correct to me.

One thing an apostate will do is convince themselves that there's no chance of repentance. That they've reached a point of no return. And of course Satan is more than happy to keep telling them that.

 

[fhansen]

I do not agree with this. When God sees one of His chosen going down that path, he disciplines them and calls them to repentance, and if they continue, God continues to discipline them, even to the point of death, so they don’t/can’t fall away.

I’d consider Gal 6: ‘a man reaps what he sows, to the spirit or to the flesh’, as well as the first letters of John where we understand that those who are close to God are those who are also furthest from sin. Whether or not we persevere, meaning whether or not we’re among the elect, is finally discernible-simply- by whether or not we actually do persevere to the end. No need or benefit in putting the cart ahead of the horse. We can’t excuse sin by saying that I know, for certain, that God will cause me to ultimately triumph over sin simply because I say that I’m one of His. To the extent that we sin, we demonstrate that there are things that are more important to us than God-and pleasing Him; we show that we don't yet really know Him so well (John 17:3).