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Short answer: yes.How does justification take place then? Do we just wake up from bed one day justified?
Hearing involves participation. Believing involves participation. Preaching involves participation. If participation is to be ruled out, that means no form of human involvement whatsoever.Short answer: yes.
Longer answer: one must hear the gospel preached and from there it is God who works in us, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. HE is the author and finisher of our faith.
It is not something we choose. And once God turns our heart and changes our nature and will, it is not as much believing as agreeing.Hearing involves participation. Believing involves participation. Preaching involves participation. If participation is to be ruled out, that means no form of human involvement whatsoever.
Agreeing requires involvement.It is not something we choose. And once God turns our heart and changes our nature and will, it is not as much believing as agreeing.
An author creates an original work to be read by others, which requires involvement.Our faith is God’s work. I’m not sure why so many feel they need to be involved in that process. The Bible is clear - God is the author (you know what an author does) and finisher of our faith.
Other people reading does not involve your involvement.An author creates an original work to be read by others, which requires involvement.
You said he's the author of your faith. In that case the author created an original work to be read by you. You said you accept the gospel. That means involvement on your part. The only way for it not to involve your involvement is you're justified without hearing or accepting the gospel.Other people reading does not involve your involvement.
Anything that we need to do to be saved is a work and Paul was clear that it is all of God (lest any man should boast).You said he's the author of your faith. In that case the author created an original work to be read by you. You said you accept the gospel. That means involvement on your part. The only way for it not to involve your involvement is you're justified without hearing or accepting the gospel.
There's is some truth here-but...it's never too late with God-until we say it's too late becasue we don't want to join with Him.the devil kept me away from reading the book of Matthew somehow and following what Jesus said. All of these debates like Calvinism vs Arminianism whether we have free will, works vs faith, faith alone, whether the Lord's Supper is real, all of it served to distract me, endless Bible prophecy stuff. Even today all people ever talk about is Bible prophecy and theology, most of the sermons should talk about this, how this is not a game and how at any moment you can do an unpardonable sin. When Jesus told the Scribes and Pharisees they blasphemed the Holy Spirit, that was it for them, there was no need to pray for them anymore. I read stuff like conspiracy on the Vatican, then I got into Reformed stuff on prophecy and the book of Daniel and Revelation, but the point of the post was to point people in the right direction that Satan doesn't want people to hear, to get saved you need to read Matthew and follow what Jesus says which is the 10 commandments, then read the first 5-6 books of the Bible, and then the NT will make sense and you can "persevere." All of these debates only served to confuse my mind into fatalism, antinomianism, nihilism, I started trying to read about theology etc, it was all unnecessary. there are still today people who spend all of their time on different things like the nephilim and the antichrist or whatever, and that's all I see people doing, there are people who might be young and read it and stop wasting their time on other stuff, if you follow Jesus and believe what he's saying like he says then you'll receive the Holy Spirit, but if your too far gone, the Holy Spirit is not going to dwell in a white-washed tomb, and then it's too late for you, and that's the goal of the devil. I had devils growling in my room when I was home alone as a kid, not once did I understand why, whether I was playing warcraft 3 or wasting time. literally. I thought there was maybe a raccoon in the walls. it was because they see you as an easy target, you're not doing what you should be doing , which is what I said above.
You're the one who brought up hearing, accepting and preaching being involved in justification. But in Ephesians 2:9 I think Paul is talking about doing good deeds, which is something someone can boast about. What a Christian should say is it's only by the grace of God that the gospel was preached, and that I heard it, and that I accepted it. But I don't think that's where the grace of God stops. It's by the grace of God that I'm aware of my sin. It's by the grace of God that I want to repent of my sin. It's by the grace of God that I want to follow Jesus. It's all part and parcel of God's grace given to us.Anything that we need to do to be saved is a work and Paul was clear that it is all of God (lest any man should boast).
Yes, as I've already stated. And I've also overcome sin or temptations to sin that I never would've thought possible-unless for my faith. I don't like saying "no" to me.Do you still sin, brother?
Receiving something by grace is not something you were able to avoid, it’s God’s work. But then saying “I have to accept it” (because many people feel that they have to accept or reject it) makes you party to your own salvation, making it a work. The works Jesus and Paul and all the NT authors are talking about doing are works that bring glory to God, not works that bring glory to yourself.You're the one who brought up hearing, accepting and preaching being involved in justification. But in Ephesians 2:9 I think Paul is talking about doing good deeds, which is something someone can boast about. What a Christian should say is it's only by the grace of God that the gospel was preached, and that I heard it, and that I accepted it. But I don't think that's where the grace of God stops. It's by the grace of God that I'm aware of my sin. It's by the grace of God that I want to repent of my sin. It's by the grace of God that I want to follow Jesus. It's all part and parcel of God's grace given to us.
The born again do not persist in wanton, grave sin. . .only the unregenerate do so. . .therefore, such are not really born again.Yes. And yet, do you think that persistence in wanton, grave sin wouldn't keep a believer out of heaven?
Well again "accept" is what you said. I let you set the provisions and what you came up with was preaching, hearing and accepting.Receiving something by grace is not something you were able to avoid, it’s God’s work. But then saying “I have to accept it” (because many people feel that they have to accept or reject it) makes you party to your own salvation, making it a work. The works Jesus and Paul and all the NT authors are talking about doing are works that bring glory to God, not works that bring glory to yourself.
Didn't I say in my last post it's only by the grace of God that the gospel was preached, and that I heard it, and that I accepted it?When I was saved, God came down to me in the moment I was furthest from Him and trying to get as far away from Him and everything that represented Him as I could, when he miraculously reached down and changed my heart and made me His. There was nothing I could do to accept or reject Him. It was done. All by Him.
I don’t believe I mentioned “accepting” except in the context that others said they had to accept it.Well again "accept" is what you said. I let you set the provisions and what you came up with was preaching, hearing and accepting.
Didn't I say in my last post it's only by the grace of God that the gospel was preached, and that I heard it, and that I accepted it?
But I don't think that's where grace stops. It's by the grace of God that I'm aware of my sin. It's by the grace of God that I want to repent of my sin. It's by the grace of God that I want to follow Jesus. It's all part and parcel of God's grace given to us.
Well, anyone can certainly "die again", if they turn back away from God, as He's the source of true and abundant life. The "elect", however, by definition will ultimately persevere. In any case, merely thinking we're His or identifying as a regenerate or elected person has little meaning in itself. While a life lived well, by Christian virtue, points to sonship of God, the end, when He gives His just judgment, will tell the tale. Either way, no one can predict their own perserverance in holiness or anything else, which is why were exhorted and instructed to persevere and to strive to be holy, incidentally-and to "make our calling and election sure". Similiarly. regardless of how we classify ourselves, believers all fall into the same category, of beings who cannot absolutely predict immunity from failing:The born again do not persist in wanton, grave sin. . .only the unregenerate do so. . .therefore, such are not really born again.
My bad. You said "And once God turns our heart and changes our nature and will, it is not as much believing as agreeing". But agreeing and accepting aren't particularly far apart.I don’t believe I mentioned “accepting” except in the context that others said they had to accept it.
Right, so sanctification is continuance of the grace that brings justification. We are justified and sanctified through grace.I agree that all we have and do is by God’s grace and mercy. That is our response to the Holy Spirit working in us.
Grace pours from one to the other, and even from sanctification to glorification, but they are still three different aspects of salvation. They have different purposes regarding our sinful state.Right, so sanctification is continuance of the grace that brings justification. We are justified and sanctified through grace.
Au contraire. . .Well, anyone can certainly "die again", if they turn back away from God,
as He's the source of true and abundant life. The "elect", however, by definition will ultimately persevere. In any case, merely thinking we're His or identifying as a regenerate or elected person has little meaning in itself. While a life lived well, by Christian virtue, points to sonship of God, the end, when He gives His just judgment, will tell the tale. Either way, no one can predict their own perserverance in holiness or anything else, which is why were exhorted and instructed to persevere and to strive to be holy, incidentally-and to "make our calling and election sure". Similiarly. regardless of how we classify ourselves, believers all fall into the same category, of beings who cannot absolutely predict immunity from failing:
"Enlightening" and "tasting" are not the conviction and eating (embibing) produced in the new birth."It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." Heb 6:4-6
"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them." 2 Pet 2:20-21
And that only means that anyone can think they did-but didn't.Turning away from God is proof they never had eternal life int he first place, though they thought they did (Mt 7:22-23).
True, that is why the Perseverance of the Saints is an important point in the Doctrines of Grace.And that only means that anyone can think they did-but didn't.
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