CHOSEN - Dead or Alive...?

[Hammster]

^^^Good post. That's what we ate trying to get across. Election and salvation are not the same and the terms are not interchangeable.

 

[Ghost air]

Nobody here is confounding election with salvation...

ELECTION is conditional upon being IN CHRIST - everyone agrees with that. God doesn't have children according to the FLESH, but according to the PROMISE.

Being in CHRIST is conditional upon repentance toward God and Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. These are what's called the first principles of Christ... repentance from dead works and faith toward God... (Heb 6)

Terrence threw another factor into the mix with his claim that he existed before he was born through his parents...

I believe that God FORKNEW me before I was born, but that doesn't mean that I existed before I was born.

I was born with a sin nature... I was not born IN CHRIST... I was placed into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit after I trusted in Christ for the forgiveness of my sins... just like every other Christian before me. Even after being placed into Christ, I have my old nature (even though positionally I am crucified with Christ)... this is why we are to be a living sacrifice unto God... because we are NOT GOOD... GOD is good... we must decrease and HE must increase.

 

[Hammster]

Nobody here is confounding election with salvation...

ELECTION is conditional upon being IN CHRIST - everyone agrees with that. God doesn't have children according to the FLESH, but according to the PROMISE.

Now you are confusing being the elect with election. Those are two different things as well.

Being in CHRIST is conditional upon repentance toward God and Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. These are what's called the first principles of Christ... repentance from dead works and faith toward God... (Heb 6)

In a sense, this is correct. This is the temporal part of salvation. Once we repent and believe, then we are saved. And sealed, as you are fond of bringing up. But that isn't election.

I believe that God FOREKNEW me before I was born, but that doesn't mean that I existed before I was born.

That's fine. I believe that God foreknew me as well. What I don't believe is that God based His decisions on what He saw that I was going to do. That is Pelagianism, and that is a heresy.

I was born with a sin nature... I was not born IN CHRIST... I was placed into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit after I trusted in Christ for the forgiveness of my sins... just like every other Christian before me. Even after being placed into Christ, I have my old nature (even though positionally I am crucified with Christ)

I was born with a sin nature as well. I was placed into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit as well. I disagree with the old nature part, but that is a minor issue that has been debated for ages, and not really part of this discussion. But I know what you are getting at.

But this isn't election. This is salvation. You are still conflating the two, even though you say you aren't.

GOD is good... we must decrease and HE must increase.

Amen.

 

[Ghost air]

Now you are confusing being the elect with election. Those are two different things as well.

Blanket statements without any support are useless.. if you're not going to explain why, then why bother making these statements..?

You show me where ELECTION is NOT conditional upon being IN CHRIST... and you have already agreed that it is conditional to being in Christ.

In a sense, this is correct. This is the temporal part of salvation. Once we repent and believe, then we are saved. And sealed, as you are fond of bringing up. But that isn't election.

I know that isn't election... Election is not God choosing the FLESH... but the PROMISE... as Isaac is a perfect example... Isaac was the promised son to Abraham... Ishmael was his son after the bondwoman and after the FLESH...

That's ELECTION, we had no choice in that... Abraham even ASKED GOD if Ismael could live before HIM and God told him that His covenant would be through ISAAC...

That's election...

The condition for being the elect of God is to be IN CHRIST...

The conditons for being placed into the body of Christ are REPENTANCE toward God and Faith toward God..

Do you deny this ?

That's fine. I believe that God foreknew me as well. What I don't believe is that God based His decisions on what He saw that I was going to do. That is Pelagianism, and that is a heresy.

God DID NOT base His decisions on what men do... He cleary chose the SPIRIT over the FLESH... that's not our decision... it has NOTHING to do with us...

To be placed into CHRIST requires REPENTANCE and FAITH... do you deny this..? These are again, the first principles of Christ.

I was born with a sin nature as well. I was placed into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit as well. I disagree with the old nature part, but that is a minor issue that has been debated for ages, and not really part of this discussion. But I know what you are getting at.

You don't believe that you still have your old nature... WOW.. then this changes everything... it is not a minor issue, it's a MAJOR issue if you're denying that you have an old nature which wars against the flesh.

But this isn't election. This is salvation. You are still conflating the two, even though you say you aren't.

OK, you tell me... IS ELECTION dependent upon being IN CHRIST... yes or no ?

THEN, if that is so, the what are the conditions for God placing us into the body of Christ...?

 

[nobdysfool]

From the master of the blanket statement....

 

[Hammster]

OK, you tell me... IS ELECTION dependent upon being IN CHRIST... yes or no ?

Election is not dependent upon being in Christ. Being in Christ is depndent upon election.

 

[Ghost air]

Election is not dependent upon being in Christ. Being in Christ is depndent upon election.

Election (what God choose) does not depend upon being In His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ..?

You mean that it's ok to be in Adam and have God choose you...? It's strange that there's not one biblical example of that..

I guess 'IN ISAAC' (the promised son, and a perfect picture of CHRIST) means nothing to you concerning election...

OK, let's look at your view here... that being in CHRIST is dependent upon being elected...

Then what are the conditions required to be IN CHRIST according to the first principles of CHRIST..?

 

[Ghost air]

Election is not dependent upon being in Christ.

IMO this says it all...

What God chooses has nothing to do with His Son... well, at least according to Hammster.

 

[A New Dawn]

IMO this says it all...

What God chooses has nothing to do with His Son... well, at least according to Hammster.

Again, it must be pointed out that election and salvation are not the same thing, even though you are trying to conflate them. Election is the determination that one will be chosen for salvation. You are elected from the foundation of the world (I'm pretty sure that is before you are "in Christ"), you are saved when you are, positionally, in Christ.

 

[Ghost air]

Election is the determination that one will be chosen for salvation.

This is where we disagree...

ELECTION is God choosing His Son (the Son of promise, as exemplified in ISAAC), over all FLESH... ie...

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Election has EVERYTHING to do WITH CHRIST... I can't imagine WHY anyone would believe otherwise... unless of course they must process everything they know through the 'unconditional election' filter... which isn't biblical... but that doesn't matter to people anyway.

 

[A New Dawn]

This is where we disagree...

ELECTION is God choosing His Son (the Son of promise, as exemplified in ISAAC), over all FLESH... ie...

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Election has EVERYTHING to do WITH CHRIST... I can't imagine WHY anyone would believe otherwise... unless of course they must process everything they know through the 'unconditional election' filter... which isn't biblical... but that doesn't matter to people anyway.

Probably because the word 'elect' is used too many times in the Bible to refer to a people for it to not be spoken of in that manner.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Colossians 3:12-13 ¶ Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also [do] ye. And above all these things [put on] charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

1Peter 1:1-2 ¶ Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 

[Ghost air]

Probably because the word 'elect' is used too many times in the Bible to refer to a people for it to not be spoken of in that manner.

I know... every time I read about election... it's IN CHRIST... not one time did God choose a person while in Adam...

That can't be important though... it's probably fine to believe that you're the elect along with God's Son... I'm sure the Father won't mind that people place themselves on the same level as His Son... saying that they were chosen from before the foundation of the world... along with God's spotless Lamb.

IT doesn't matter that God says that if any man will come after ME, then let him DENY HIMSELF... take up HIS CROSS and follow ME...

That's probably a good idea, but not that important..

We're probably not crucified with Christ.. Paul was probably up too light the night before when he wrote that.

 

[A New Dawn]

I know... every time I read about election... it's IN CHRIST... not one time did God choose a person while in Adam...

That can't be important though... it's probably fine to believe that you're the elect along with God's Son... I'm sure the Father won't mind that people place themselves on the same level as His Son... saying that they were chosen from before the foundation of the world... along with God's spotless Lamb.

IT doesn't matter that God says that if any man will come after ME, then let him DENY HIMSELF... take up HIS CROSS and follow ME...

That's probably a good idea, but not that important..

We're probably not crucified with Christ.. Paul was probably up too light the night before when he wrote that.

I'm not sure why you are pushing this point. We all believe that salvation comes only through Christ, and after we are saved, we are, positionally, in Christ. Election is the process of electing. Electing is choosing. If someone is already in Christ, what are they being further chosen for? Answer that and maybe we can see why you are making an issue out of something that isn't an issue to begin with.

 

[Ghost air]

ELECTION is conditional to being in CHRIST... unless of course you'd rather deny that simple truth and continue to preach that people are chosen by God for no reason at all... that's unconditional, and it's not biblical... but it MUST be honoured because people call themselves CALVINists and can't honour the word of God without it first going through Calvin's TULIP.

 

[Ghost air]

THE ONLY reason I can imagine why a person would say that ELECTION is not conditional upon being in CHRIST... is because they must honour the U in tulip, over the simplicity and truth of the word of God.

 

[A New Dawn]

ELECTION is conditional to being in CHRIST... unless of course you'd rather deny that simple truth and continue to preach that people are chosen by God for no reason at all... that's unconditional, and it's not biblical... but it MUST be honoured because people call themselves CALVINists and can't honour the word of God without it first going through Calvin's TULIP.

You didn't answer the question.

 

[Hammster]

THE ONLY reason I can imagine why a person would say that ELECTION is not conditional upon being in CHRIST... is because they must honour the U in tulip, over the simplicity and truth of the word of God.

Demonstrating that you do not understand the doctrine of Unconditional Election. We can't defend against your misguided view. It is tiring trying to explain over and over how your view of our view is wrong.. You set up straw-men that you can conveniently knock down.

 

[Ghost air]

Demonstrating that you do not understand the doctrine of Unconditional Election. We can't defend against your misguided view. It is tiring trying to explain over and over how your view of our view is wrong.. You set up straw-men that you can conveniently knock down.

I know Hammster... it's so far above me... you know... what you guys know and preach.. like unconditional election and how you believe that you're elected regardless of anything that you do or will do...

 

[Ghost air]

I'm not sure why you are pushing this point. We all believe that salvation comes only through Christ, and after we are saved, we are, positionally, in Christ. Election is the process of electing. Electing is choosing. If someone is already in Christ, what are they being further chosen for? Answer that and maybe we can see why you are making an issue out of something that isn't an issue to begin with.

I already told you that we need to DISAGREE as concerning what ELECTION actually means...

IF you think that it means one thing... and I believe that it means God chose CHRIST from before the foundation of the world... then we're stopped right here.

I've said it many times... God's CHOICE was that NO FLESH would be the children of God... but the children of the PROMISE.. and that they would be called IN ISAAC...

If you can't see that Issac is a perfect picture of CHRIST, then I'm sorry... you'll continue to believe otherwise.

If you'd like to believe that IN ISAAC means unconditionally, then so be it.

 

[A New Dawn]

I already told you that we need to DISAGREE as concerning what ELECTION actually means...

IF you think that it means one thing... and I believe that it means God chose CHRIST from before the foundation of the world... then we're stopped right here.

I've said it many times... God's CHOICE was that NO FLESH would be the children of God... but the children of the PROMISE.. and that they would be called IN ISAAC...

If you can't see that Issac is a perfect picture of CHRIST, then I'm sorry... you'll continue to believe otherwise.

If you'd like to believe that IN ISAAC means unconditionally, then so be it.

I see many pictures of Christ in the OT, Isaac is but one of them. What I don't see is that there are many scriptures that describe the elect as being people other than Christ, some of which I quoted, yet you refuse to deal with them. How do you reconcile those scriptural passages when it talks about people (who are not Christ) as being the elect? It's fine that you disagree, but ignoring posted scripture that demonstrates a different position so that you can continue to make your claim just doesn't help the discussion progress. Do you see where the problem is?