CHOSEN - Dead or Alive...?

[A New Dawn]

IMO, Paul is a special case; he was raised up specifically to be an APOSTLE TO THE GENTILES... a huge office to say the least.

With that said, I believe that there are similarities between Saul's conversion and any other Christian conversion... the light which stopped him dead in his tracks on the way to persecute Christ's church is what I believe to be the same TRUE LIGHT which hits us between the eyes at some point in our life.

I believe that Paul's testimony (within his letters to the church of God, and the book of Acts), clearly shows GODLY SORROW, REPENTANCE toward GOD, and FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ... we don't see it in the story on the road to Damascus, although we do read about his testimony elsewhere... ie, that he did these things out of ignorance... but when he was 'exposed' to the grace of God in Christ, that changed everything.

Paul is the one who teaches us that he held nothing back, teaching both Jew and Gentile alike... REPENTANCE TOWARD GOD and FAITH in the LORD JESUS CHRIST...

The story of the Philippian Jailor doesn't say much about repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ... but it's in there imo... and that's what the miracle of the gospel does... it produces GODLY SORROW when we realize the staggering truth that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS...

In short though... it's a little difficult to put an Apostle to the Gentiles on the same page as the rest of us... we're not the apostles of Christ... we're certainly in Christ, but not associated with the office of an Apostle... and specifically, the Apostle to the GENTILES.

So, I'm trying to understand what you are saying here .... Are you saying that God deals differently with some people than others because of what their station in life is going to be?

 

[nobdysfool]

"Paul is a special case".....yet elsewhere, it is said that God is no respecter of persons.
Just more ducking and dodging, and avoiding answering the questions and points that poke this full of holes. Conditional election is false doctrine, pure and simple.

If we have to do something before we are elected by God, then election is a reward for right behavior, and wages due us for our right actions. This is to totally misunderstand what election is, and when it happens. Election is not Salvation, and Salvation is not Election.

 

[Ghost air]

So, I'm trying to understand what you are saying here .... Are you saying that God deals differently with some people than others because of what their station in life is going to be?

Yes and No... Yes with respect to Paul was raised up to be an Apostle to the Gentiles... if you can't see the difference between an Apostle and a Christian, then I'm sorry... Paul performed miracles as Apostles can do that... the entire church of God is BUILT UPON the FOUNDATION of the APOSTLES and prophets, Christ Jesus being its chief cornerstone.

I am certainly NOT an apostle... are You ? Some in Christendom believe in apostolic succession, although that's not correct imo... the foundation was laid a long time ago, and everything is built UPON IT.

NO in the sense that I believe Paul's testimony is filled with Godly sorrow, repentance (that's what he preached !), and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ... his entire life exemplified these things.

It seems to me that you're arguing that Paul DID NOT REPENT or TRUST IN CHRIST because the story in Acts doesn't contain those facts... although again, they are certainly there throughout his letters imo... again, his entire life being a testimony in itself to these things.

 

[A New Dawn]

Yes and No... Yes with respect to Paul was raised up to be an Apostle to the Gentiles... if you can't see the difference between an Apostle and a Christian, then I'm sorry... Paul performed miracles as Apostles can do that... the entire church of God is BUILT UPON the FOUNDATION of the APOSTLES and prophets, Christ Jesus being its chief cornerstone.

I am certainly NOT an apostle... are You ? Some in Christendom believe in apostolic succession, although that's not correct imo... the foundation was laid a long time ago, and everything is built UPON IT.

NO in the sense that I believe Paul's testimony is filled with Godly sorrow, repentance (that's what he preached !), and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ... his entire life exemplified these things.

It seems to me that you're arguing that Paul DID NOT REPENT or TRUST IN CHRIST because the story in Acts doesn't contain those facts... although again, they are certainly there throughout his letters imo... again, his entire life being a testimony in itself to these things.

No, my argument is not that Paul did not repent or trust in Christ. I am positive he did both those things. My argument is that it did not happen before God intervened in his life. It happened subsequent to his conversion. And I believe that that act sets the pattern for how God deals with all men. That He intervenes (in one way or another (not always as overtly as it happened with Saul/Paul)) first, and we come to belief and repent subsequently.

 

[Ghost air]

No, my argument is not that Paul did not repent or trust in Christ. I am positive he did both those things. My argument is that it did not happen before God intervened in his life. It happened subsequent to his conversion. And I believe that that act sets the pattern for how God deals with all men. That He intervenes (in one way or another (not always as overtly as it happened with Saul/Paul)) first, and we come to belief and repent subsequently.

There's no denying that GOD intervenes FIRST... it's that TRUE LIGHT imo which hits all of us in the bulls eye so to speak... but I don't believe that God repents for anyone... He has granted repentance to both the Jews and Gentiles alike (as there is no difference), and so Paul preaches REPENTANCE TOWARD GOD and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of our sins.

God is no respector of persons I hear... so why would He repent and believe for you and not for others... are you special..? Did you get the effectual call while others only received the ineffectual one...?

I don't understand why or how people come up with those things... they're foreign to the scriptures... we're no different than anybody else... we had to REPENT and have FAITH TOWARD GOD just like every other person who has come to Christ.

 

[A New Dawn]

There's no denying that GOD intervenes FIRST... it's that TRUE LIGHT imo which hits all of us in the bulls eye so to speak... but I don't believe that God repents for anyone... He has granted repentance to both the Jews and Gentiles alike (as there is no difference), and so Paul preaches REPENTANCE TOWARD GOD and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of our sins.

God is no respector of persons I hear... so why would He repent and believe for you and not for others... are you special..? Did you get the effectual call while others only received the ineffectual one...?

I don't understand why or how people come up with those things... they're foreign to the scriptures... we're no different than anybody else... we had to REPENT and have FAITH TOWARD GOD just like every other person who has come to Christ.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "God repents for anyone". Can you clarify that? I don't believe that God repents for anyone. We must all repent for ourselves, but we can't do it before God's intervention because we can't see/understand/believe/care that we are sinning. It takes God changing our heart so that we can see and respond.

 

[Hammster]

I don't understand why or how people come up with those things... they're foreign to the scriptures... we're no different than anybody else... we had to REPENT and have FAITH TOWARD GOD just like every other person who has come to Christ.

Yes, we have to repent and believe. Nobody is arguing against this. But this is not a condintion of election. If it were, then salvation would be merit based. You seem to be conflating election with salvation.

 

[Terrence Theodore]

Ghost air

I'm asking YOU to tell me WHEN God placed you into CHRIST...


"Before the foundation of the world" (Eph 1:4).

and WHY didn't God choose you before you were in Christ...?

Because he chooses the weak and foolish things of the world (1Cor 1:26-27).

I'm also asking if God's word applied to YOU personally... iow, did YOU need to repent, and take up your cross to follow Christ... or did God waive His word for you personally..?

Yes I needed to repent. However, seeing that I couldn't; yea that I wouldn't, "God granted me repentance leading to eternal life" (Acts 11:18).

 

[nobdysfool]

Yes, we have to repent and believe. Nobody is arguing against this. But this is not a condintion of election. If it were, then salvation would be merit based. You seem to be conflating election with salvation.

That, my friend, is precisely what is happening. He has not addressed this, even though I have pointed it out repeatedly. It destroys the entire argument. Apparently, ignoring it is the only option being utilized, because of that fact.

 

[Ghost air]

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "God repents for anyone". Can you clarify that? I don't believe that God repents for anyone. We must all repent for ourselves, but we can't do it before God's intervention because we can't see/understand/believe/care that we are sinning. It takes God changing our heart so that we can see and respond.

I agree with your comments here 100%

What I don't agree with are the claims made here in CF about certain individuals being called 'effectively' while others are called ineffectively.

We all get the same call, the same gospel, the same true light which lights every man that comes into the world.

 

[Ghost air]

Yes, we have to repent and believe. Nobody is arguing against this. But this is not a condintion of election. If it were, then salvation would be merit based. You seem to be conflating election with salvation.

I agree that these are not the condition for election, they are conditions for God to place us into the body of CHRIST.

Being the elect of God is conditional upon being IN CHRIST... for none are elected (or chosen) in Adam.

 

[Ghost air]

Ghost air

I'm asking YOU to tell me WHEN God placed you into CHRIST...


"Before the foundation of the world" (Eph 1:4).

This is not correct according to scripture... we are placed into the body of Christ AFTER trusting in Christ. The same book of Eph teaching us not only that, but before this we were DEAD in trespasses and in sins.

Let me ask you this... Did YOU exist before you were born through your parents..?

and WHY didn't God choose you before you were in Christ...?

Because he chooses the weak and foolish things of the world (1Cor 1:26-27).

I'm also asking if God's word applied to YOU personally... iow, did YOU need to repent, and take up your cross to follow Christ... or did God waive His word for you personally..?

Yes I needed to repent. However, seeing that I couldn't; yea that I wouldn't, "God granted me repentance leading to eternal life" (Acts 11:18).

OK, so YOU personally needed to repent and take up your cross in order to come to Christ... just like anyone else...

That is what is so important imo... is that in Adam we are condemned... there's no rehabilitating the old man... we are to take up our cross because we ARE 'positiionally' crucified with Christ and yet we live, yet not I, but CHRIST lives in me...

God chose us when we were made alive IN CHRIST, not while we were dead in ADAM... and that's why election is based upon HIM and not us... we are the elect of God by virtue of being IN CHRIST, and we were placed into CHRIST after we trusted in Christ, not before the foundation of the world...

As far as I know, I DID NOT EXIST before I was born through my parents... did YOU ?

 

[Ghost air]

God foreknew before the foundation of the world that we would be chosen in HIM, and we were chosen in HIM...

We know that we were NOT chosen in Adam... we're condemned in Adam...

Most would agree that we did not exist before we were born through our parents... so we were not IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world, unless of course a person believes that they existed before the foundation of the world... but let's be serious here... we're not God.

 

[Terrence Theodore]

Ghost air

This is not correct according to scripture... we are placed into the body of Christ AFTER trusting in Christ. The same book of Eph teaching us not only that, but before this we were DEAD in trespasses and in sins.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us FOR adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will (Eph 1:3-5).

Does that not say "God chose us in Christ before the world began?" If so, why do you say different?

Let me ask you this... Did YOU exist before you were born through your parents..?

This will probably get me in trouble, as I am more of a theologian than a philosopher. However, I will answer this way...YES! Yes, before I was born through my parents, I existed in the mind of God (who knew me and ordained me to eternal life).

OK, so YOU personally needed to repent and take up your cross in order to come to Christ... just like anyone else...

Yes. I still need to do it now. However, unlike before I knew Jesus, that reality is more of a privilege than a command.

That is what is so important imo... is that in Adam we are condemned... there's no rehabilitating the old man... we are to take up our cross because we ARE 'positiionally' crucified with Christ and yet we live, yet not I, but CHRIST lives in me...

There's so much glory in what you're saying there!" "It is no longer I who live, but Christ in me!" Do you know what that means? Have you tasted just a glimpse of that reality? When you do, silly little arguments like ours will seem small, and all that will be left is a desire to grow to know God and love him more!

God chose us when we were made alive IN CHRIST, not while we were dead in ADAM...

"Before they were born - before they did any good or bad, it was told that the younger will serve the elder." Before I was born, before I did any good or bad (although God knew I'd be bad like the rest), God chose me and ordained that I'd bear fruit. Allow me to glory in my election, brother. I do not boast in me as if by some merit or admirable attribute I earned it, but I boast in his mercy. "I once was lost in darkest night, Yet thought I knew the way. The sin that promised joy and life, Had led me to the grave. I had no hope that You would own, A rebel to Your will. And if You had not loved me first, I would refuse You still. Hallelujah! All I have is Christ! Hallelujah! Jesus is my life!"

As far as I know, I DID NOT EXIST before I was born through my parents... did YOU ?

God knows more

 

[A New Dawn]

I agree with your comments here 100%

What I don't agree with are the claims made here in CF about certain individuals being called 'effectively' while others are called ineffectively.

We all get the same call, the same gospel, the same true light which lights every man that comes into the world.

Well, first, not everyone hears the gospel, but that's another issue. If everyone heard the gospel with the same ears, and it is an effective call, why do some respond and others don't? And wouldn't the fact that some don't respond mean that the call isn't effective?

 

[Ghost air]

Does that not say "God chose us in Christ before the world began?" If so, why do you say different?

I don't say it different, I agree 100%

My question was different... I asked WHEN it was that God placed you INTO CHRIST... and you said from before the foundation of the world... that's not the same thing...

God chose us in His Son from before the foundation of the world, but obviously we were not placed into the body of Christ until AFTER we trusted in Christ. Prior to this we were DEAD in sins...

This will probably get me in trouble, as I am more of a theologian than a philosopher. However, I will answer this way...YES! Yes, before I was born through my parents, I existed in the mind of God (who knew me and ordained me to eternal life).

Interesting... you're the 2nd person who has told me that you existed before you were born through your parents... I don't believe that we were, but we know that you believe this, and so that's important in the scenerio of WHEN you were in Christ... but let's follow through...

Let's say you were IN CHRIST from before the foundation of the world... then when YOU were born into the world, you were NOT IN CHRIST, you were in Adam, and we are condemned in Adam...

So your sequence would be;

IN CHRIST from before the foundation of the world -> NOT IN CHRIST when born into the world, actuall condemned in Adam - > IN CHRIST after trusting in Christ for the forgiveness of your sins...

Strange isn't it... IN CHRIST, OUT OF CHRIST, then IN CHRIST again...? ?

So we're not comparing apples to apples here if you believe that YOU personally existed before you were born through your parents... that changes everything.

 

[Ghost air]

Well, first, not everyone hears the gospel, but that's another issue. If everyone heard the gospel with the same ears, and it is an effective call, why do some respond and others don't? And wouldn't the fact that some don't respond mean that the call isn't effective?

I think that it's effective regardless of whether or not it is embraced as truth and obeyed from the heart.

I often share a quote from Mark Twain, a well known and respected writer... he was not a believer, but this is what he wrote about the bible..

"It's not what I don't understand in the bible that bothers me, it's what I do understand in the bible... that bothers me."

Would you say that his comments stem from an effective call or from an ineffective call from God... ?

Why would you think that he was troubled with what he understood in the scirptures... ?

 

[Hammster]

Twain suppressed the knowledge of the truth. Knowledge and faith are two different things.

 

[A New Dawn]

I think that it's effective regardless of whether or not it is embraced as truth and obeyed from the heart.

I often share a quote from Mark Twain, a well known and respected writer... he was not a believer, but this is what he wrote about the bible..

"It's not what I don't understand in the bible that bothers me, it's what I do understand in the bible... that bothers me."

Would you say that his comments stem from an effective call or from an ineffective call from God... ?

Why would you think that he was troubled with what he understood in the scirptures... ?

I don't really know enough about Mark Twain to second-guess why he might have rejected the gospel, but I wanted to just dig a little deeper about your belief that everyone hears the same call and that it is always an effectual call. What is it about a call not having an effect that makes you believe that it is still an effectual call? Could you describe what you believe an effectual call means when it has no effect?

 

[Terrence Theodore]

Ghost air;

I don't say it different, I agree 100% My question was different... I asked WHEN it was that God placed you INTO CHRIST... and you said from before the foundation of the world... that's not the same thing... ]God chose us in His Son from before the foundation of the world, but obviously we were not placed into the body of Christ until AFTER we trusted in Christ. Prior to this we were DEAD in sins...

I think I get you now! I agree! God chose me in Christ before the world began - YES! But I wasn't actually placed "in him" until I believe. I agree, dude! God predestined me for salvation before I was born, but I wasn't actually saved until I was born and later believe. His predestination isn't the same as salvation, but he did predestined me FOR salvation. I actually believe because i was predestined to believe. Cool!

Interesting... you're the 2nd person who has told me that you existed before you were born through your parents... I don't believe that we were, but we know that you believe this, and so that's important in the scenerio of WHEN you were in Christ... but let's follow through... Let's say you were IN CHRIST from before the foundation of the world... then when YOU were born into the world, you were NOT IN CHRIST, you were in Adam, and we are condemned in Adam... So your sequence would be; IN CHRIST from before the foundation of the world -> NOT IN CHRIST when born into the world, actuall condemned in Adam - > IN CHRIST after trusting in Christ for the forgiveness of your sins...Strange isn't it... IN CHRIST, OUT OF CHRIST, then IN CHRIST again...? ?

I look at it like this: Before God made anything, he knew everything. He knew that one day he'd make this good looking guy who'd be crazy bad (but think he was good). He knew all that before it actually came to pass. He knew that Terrence (me), would be evil and God hating just like everyone else. For reasons known to himself, he said, "I will have mercy on that idiot over there (speaking of me). Sidebar: This is all in God's mind by the way, nothing came into fruition yet. Okay, so God puts his plan into action, and creation occurred from the words of God's mouth. On May 22nd of 1979, he said..."Let Terrence be," and I was born. I followed the course he knew I'd take. I did my own thing, chased chicks, tried to be rich and famous like other people I knew (to no avail I might add). Then the day came when, unknown to me, he predestined I would hear his summoning message - the gospel. I heard it, believed, and was changed. In a flash I was translated from death to life. Terrence died (still dying oddly enough), and Jesus lived. Something like that...That's how I think of it.

So we're not comparing apples to apples here if you believe that YOU personally existed before you were born through your parents... that changes everything.

Yeah, I believe God knew me before I was born, as I existed in his mind.