Children salvation, shatters Calvinism

[nonaeroterraqueous]

If all children are saved once by the grace of God through Christ death on the cross for the sin of the whole world. This shatters Calvinism also, and many of their points. If all children are saved when born then all are the elect and all are like sheep . This shatters the election view of many.

No, it only shatters the election view of yourself, who never believed it. I think it would be up to a Calvinist to say whether his Calvinism is shattered by your argument. I've known too many genuinely evil children to believe that all of them are saved or that any of them are born good. My memory of childhood is too good for that. Even so, even if all were born good, not all of them could be born saved, because a man is not saved from his sins if he still ends up paying for them in Hell. If you say that a man can lose his salvation and that it proves predestination false, then it only proves that you do not understand predestination. The key to understanding predestination is in the destination. If you're talking about the fickleness of a man over the course of his life, then you are not talking about his destination. If you are talking about what he is at birth, then you are not even discussing his destination. Your argument disproves nothing about the matter, but it shows that you don't quite understand what it is that you are arguing against.

 

[Bible2+]

LoveofTruth said in post #1:

Notice that when men hate the light then are they condemned, (not before that) they are not condemned from some predestined condemnation before they hate the light.

Regarding "predestined condemnation", note that God does not love everyone; he hates the nonelect (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens the nonelect in their sinfulness instead of showing them his mercy (Romans 9:18), because he created them to be vessels of his wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4). They were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4). They were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them or anyone else to commit sin. He never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All people will be justly held accountable for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8), because neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of people.

God created nonelect people to be vessels of his wrath instead of vessels of his mercy so that he might eternally make known his wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11). And God created elect people to be vessels of his mercy so that he might eternally make known his mercy, glory, and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).

God wants these aspects of his character to be made known both to humans and angels (Ephesians 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Corinthians 2:9; 1 Peter 1:12b). For example, the full extent of God's wrath will not be known to humans and angels until Satan and his fallen angels and all of unsaved humanity are cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11), and saved humans and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the new earth to witness the suffering of the unsaved in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24), the eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46), and realize by seeing it, not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it, by way of contrast, the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lamentations 3:22-23). Just as "up" cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of "down", so God's mercy cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of his wrath.

LoveofTruth said in post #1:

Notice that when men hate the light then are they condemned, (not before that) they are not condemned from some predestined condemnation before they hate the light.

Regarding "before they hate the light", note that there is no such thing, because of original sin.

Romans 5:19a is the doctrine of original sin, which could be based on everyone having been in some way in "the loins" of Adam when he sinned, so that everyone in some way committed sin when Adam sinned, just as Levi had been in some way in "the loins" of Abraham when Abraham gave a tithe to Melchisedec, so that Levi in some way gave a tithe to Melchisedec when Abraham did (Hebrews 7:9-10).

Because of original sin, we are guilty as individuals as soon as we are conceived in the womb (Psalms 51:5). So even as babies we are sinful (Psalms 58:3, Romans 3:10). But original sin is not our only guiltiness before God, for we have all as individuals committed our own sins by our own free will (Romans 3:23,9-12). No one can master sin (Genesis 4:7b), or put to death the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:24), without the miraculous help of God's Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13b), who is given to saved people (1 Corinthians 2:12-16).

If original sin is genetic, could it be passed on only through the male "seed", so that Jesus could be conceived without original sin by being conceived without any human father (Luke 1:34-35)?

LoveofTruth said in post #1:

The true Light lighteth every man that cometh into the world, John 1:9.

John 1:9 can refer to Jesus being the source of human consciousness in general. It does not contradict double predestination (Romans 9:11-24), which means that some humans are nonelect children of the devil who can never believe in Jesus (John 8:42-47, Matthew 13:38b-39).

The elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b; 2 Timothy 2:10), whether as little children (Matthew 18:6) or as adults. This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12), and so it is impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people cannot understand the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

The nonelect cannot ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), because the ability to believe in Jesus and the gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers so that on their own they cannot repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

LoveofTruth said in post #1:

This shatters the eternal security and perserverance of the saints view in Calavinsm.

Calvinism's mistaken doctrine of once-saved-always-saved through assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that saved people are robots. For if saved people cannot choose to do evil to the point where they can ultimately lose their salvation, then they no longer have free will. Also, the mistaken doctrine of assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that a Christian can have no present assurance that he is truly saved. For if a Christian who does not persevere to the end was never truly saved, then no Christian can presently have the assurance that he is truly saved. For no Christian can know if he will persevere to the end. Down the road, he could fail to persevere, and so end up showing that he was all along only a fake Christian, a self-deceived hypocrite.

But under true, Biblical doctrine, every believer in the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he is presently saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), if after he became a believer in the gospel he repented from his sins (1 John 3:6) and confessed them to God (1 John 1:9). And he can be sure that as a saved person, he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means to obey him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24). And no matter how many tests a saved person fails during his lifetime, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, even if he fails and commits sin seventy times seven times in a single day (Matthew 18:21-22, Luke 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every act of sin and confesses it to God, he will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9). He will lose his salvation ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

LoveofTruth said in post #1:

Jesus died for the sin of the whole world.

Jesus' divine/human sacrifice was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 John 2:2). But it was performed in order to actually forgive the sins not of everyone (Romans 9:18-24), but of only the elect. For Jesus' sheep whom he died to save (John 10:11,14-15) are the elect (1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 3:18; 1 Peter 4:1), those who are able to believe in him (John 10:27), and who will believe in him at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b), whether as little children (Matthew 18:6) or as adults; as opposed to the nonelect, who cannot ever believe in him (John 8:42-47), because they are not his sheep (John 10:26).

*******

LoveofTruth said in post #14:

True Gd is the saviour of all men as we can see especially of them that believe.

1 Timothy 4:10b, like 1 Timothy 2:4, means that God will have all manner of people believe in Jesus and be saved (Revelation 5:9b), not absolutely all people (Romans 9:11-24), just as, for example, John 3:26c means that all manner of people came to Jesus during his first-coming earthly ministry, not absolutely all people. The original Greek word (pas: G3956) translated as "all" can simply mean "all manner of" (e.g. Acts 10:12). It does not have to mean absolutely all.

1 Timothy 4:10b does not mean that everyone can believe in Jesus, for other verses show that some people (the nonelect) cannot believe in him (John 6:65, John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42).

Also, it does not mean (as is sometimes claimed) that everyone will be saved, for other verses show that most people will not be saved (Matthew 25:41,46, Matthew 13:38-42, Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).

And it does not mean that God originally intended to save everyone. For before the foundation of the world, he intended to save only the elect, the chosen (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13b, Acts 13:48b).

Regarding unbelievers, 1 Timothy 4:10b would apply only to those unbelievers who are elect (e.g. Romans 11:28), and so will become believers at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b), whether as little children (Matthew 18:6) or as adults.

 

[LoveofTruth]

No, it only shatters the election view of yourself, who never believed it. I think it would be up to a Calvinist to say whether his Calvinism is shattered by your argument.

No, you are wrong on all points and it is a classic error the way some will have their doctrine exposed and then say "well, you just don't understand it". But I do understand it. And a Calvinist who is exposed will often time stubbornly reject the truth even when it is right in front of them, I blame pride and a false sense of superiority that some have for not yielding to the scriptures of truth and sound words in this.

I think in reality many Calvinist or those who hold such views do not understand the spiritual aspects of this teaching I am sharing. This discussion goes into the great mystery of Christ in us the hope of glory and the wonderful Light of Christ the Seed.

I understand the view of election. But my discussion also exposes the errors of other aspects of the calvinistic doctrine

Total Depravity - is exposed because while we can agree that all men have a sin nature and there is none good, no not one. God has given , by his grace the free gift of Christ the Light , the Seed to every man to give life and unto justification of life. This free gift was given through the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. God was able to give all men this Light even in the past, seeing what was to come in the future and through mens faith in his righteousness he could give then the things that are not yet, or He gave them the reality of that life inwardly. So yes all are depraved and there is none good of themselves and there is no good thing in the flesh. But God has given all have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us. This treasure inwardly is the Light of Christ the word and seed sown in the hearts.
So that aspect of calvinism, is also shown to be in error, for God has given men the ability inwardly in their conscience to know this light and to know good and evil as Romans 2 speaks of that even the Gentiles which have not the law do by nature (God's natural way he deals with all men) the things contained in the law, these having not the law are a law unto themselves, which show the work of the law written in their hearts their conscience also bearing witness. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to the gospel.

Unconditional Election - While God does not wait for men to do good of themselves to base his decisions on. He does see how they receive him or believe in their heart in the Light of Christ. Jesus said while ye have the light believe in the light . This Light Christ also speaks of in John3 and He says that the reaosm men are condemned is when they hate the light because there deeds are evil. This again corrects the error of calvinism. For all men have this Light, infants as well and so until the infant hates that light because his deeds are evil he is not condemned. he is only condemned when he hates that light as jesus said. But a child , or INFANT of one day old has not done any good or evil yet , and he has not transgressed a known law. Therefore where no law is there is no transgression and sin is not imputed where there is no law. Paul said he was alive without the law once, but the commandment came sin revived and he died. This being alive once without the law, is the state of all infants at at least one day old. Spiritually alive, that is, until the commandment comes to thier understanding and sin revives and they die. This death is when the flesh and fallen nature is awakened and they hate the light and do evil works. So it starts with their hating the light and manifest in their doing good or evil works. This is not unconditional election as the calvinist teach and it corrects this doctrine also because it shows that all infants are elect and the reason they are damned is when they hate the light (JOHN 3) and when the commandments comes and sin revives and they die (Romans 7:9 etc).
So truly God gives life to those according to his will, and it is His will that none should perish, and so a one day old infant who has not had sin revive yet or had the commandment come to his understanding or hated the light and done evil, is saved until then. Christ died for their sin also. God is not giving them life based on their good works either, it is by grace he gives life through Jesus death and resurrection .
If the child does not understand to do good or evil yet and has not done any good or evil yet, then sin is not imputed for to him that knoweth to do good and doth it not it is sin. But a child known not these things, or rather a one day old infant.
So Unconditional election is refuted by what i share here. None are elected to damnation until they hate the Light and all infants have not done that yet so they are in the election of salvation. only when they hate the light and have sin revive will they die and be condemned and need to be born again.

Limited Atonement:- Jesus did not die for only the elect (as calvinist would have it only for the ones who came to believe in Jesus). As I have been showing all infants have salvation through the grace of God and sin is not imputed unto them where there is no law and where no law is there is no transgression, Paul said he was ALIVE without the law once. So this Limited salvation view is false again by the infant salvation teaching.
Christ truly died for the sin of the whole world, (infants included). The only time men are condemned is when they hate the light because their deeds are evil. A infant has not done any good or evil yet until the commandment comes to his understanding (either heard through the law, or inwardly heard through the conscience)
The idea of calvinism that jesus only bore the sins of the elect. is not as they would have it. For all infants are also the elect until they hate the light.
He is truly the saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. And as in Adam all died even so in Christ shall all be made alive. As the condemnation came upon all men through Adam, so also the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life Romans 5, through Jesus Christ. Infants also have this free gift came upon them through the work of Jesus Christ. They also have the true Light that eightieth EVERY MAN (infants included) that cometh into the word.
In the end when there is a new heaven and all the saints are with God, we can say he died for me and all there. But he did died for all mankind and the whole world, its just that they believed not and hated the light and did not come to him to have life. Even though at one time as an infant he covered them and gave life through his grace. This could be said of the angels that sinned also. They were once in Gods Light and grace and perfect in their ways . But when they dinned they will end in the lake of fire. But at one time God showed grace to them.
So again infant salvation defeats this aspect of Calvinism.

Irresistible Grace: Some would say that when God calls his elect to salvation they cannot resist. This would make them no more than a robot and with now will or ability to do anything. This is a false idea. But what we can agree upon is that this free gift, this treasure in earthen vessels, the true Light that eightieth every man, the word sown, calls all men unto God. This light shines in the darkness and God's voice speaks to all n the heart if they hear. But men reject this and hate this light and word and turn their hearts away and harden to this. This shows that they can resist the call but God will still rebuke them of all sin and shine to convict them. This they cannot resist. But he does so that t there might be hope and they would repent and turn to him in their hearts and call unto him as they are broken and exposed. Jesus said he would draw all men unto himself. But he said to some how often he would have gathered them together BUT THEY WOULD NOT. This shows that they resisted his call even though he wanted them to come. God is not willing that any should persist ( by any I mean all men and the ones who do perish) . If God is not willing for this then obviously men are self-willed ( as scripture teaches) and resisting his will.
That section in Romans 9 that says "who hath resisted his will" was posed as a question the jews would have asked about why God made them the way he did. This was spoke by those who were resisting the Holy Ghost as their fathers did so did they.

Acts 7:51
"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

This is as clear as day to the unbiased reader. Stephen filled with the Holy Ghost said they had and do resist God.
So as far as infant salvation exposing this error. All infants are given grace by God and have not resisted this yet, but they will be able to resist it when sin revives and they die and when they hate the light because their deeds are evil. So this Light is not of mans will or power it is of God and his free gift.

Perseverance of the Saints: - claiming that none can lose their salvation and that they will preserver if they are the elect. This is again disproven by infant salvation. They were once saved , and so the elect, and they died spiritually when sin revives and condemned when they hate the light and need to be born again. They may come to receive Christ and believe the truth and then later hate the light again and harden their hearts through and evil heart of unbelief and depart from God (Hebrews 3:12) and be lost and end up in the lake of fire one day.
The fallen angels are an example of this and Judas and others in scripture.

I've known too many genuinely evil children to believe that all of them are saved or that any of them are born good.

My argument is referring specifically to a one day old infant who is born. Have you met any one day old infants that are doing evil willingly, that know their left hand from their right ? that knoweth to do good and doth it not?Or that have the commandment come to them ( their understanding) and understand it?
If all one day old infants are saved by the grace of God and given the free gift unto justification of life then all are in that state when they come into the world. The true Light still eightieth every man that cometh into the world. This Light will give life and when sin revives it is the reproof of sin, all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light, for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

My memory of childhood is too good for that.

I speak of a one day old infant for the sake of this discussion.Jesus blessed the infants.

Even so, even if all were born good, not all of them could be born saved, because a man is not saved from his sins if he still ends up paying for them in Hell.

None are good the dormant fallen nature of a infant still shows that they fall short of the glory of God and need a saviour. Even though they haven't done any actual transgressions they still have a sin nature. Christ died for the sin of the world. In leviticus there are two offerings for sin specifically, of the five offerings. That is the sin offering and the trespass offering. the sin offering is I believe, for the nature of mens sin against God, and a general aspect of the law is shown. The trespass offering os for actual trespasses and transgressions against God and more specific things are mentioned. I see in these two the sin offering for all men and infants as to their sin nature and the trespass offering for actual transgressions. Paul said where no law is there is no transgression. To an infant there is no law yet and so no actual transgressions. But they still have a sin nature and need a saviour, and so Jesus Christ died for their sin.

And a person can be in salvation and then in the end be in the lake of fire. We see this in many examples in scripture. We also see this in the angels that sinned and will end up there and in Judas who was called a sheep by Jesus and sent to the lost sheep and who once belonged to the Father once and then lost it and fell by transgression and had his name blotted out of the book of life.

If you say that a man can lose his salvation and that it proves predestination false, then it only proves that you do not understand predestination. The key to understanding predestination is in the destination.

Wrong, predestination is (as the text says) to be conformed to the image of His Son. The end destination for those who come to believe in Jesus and who fight the good fight of faith and who lay hold of eternal life (which is Jesus Christ himself 1 John 1) is to be conformed to that image of Christ.

Predestination is speaking of the plan not the individual or destining one over the other with no choice of any. But it speaks the body of Christ that God had planned from the beginning and the end that Christ may be all and in all. The one new man all will be conformed to in the final destination.

God always had in mind a "in Christ group" that would be the destination of all He foreknew who would come to believe the truth.

 

[LoveofTruth]

because he created them to be vessels of his wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4).

I will try to get to some of your points later but a quick point now

No, God does not force any to be a vessel of honour or wrath, consider,


1 Thessalonians 4:4
That every one of you should know how to possess his vesselin sanctification and honour;"

2 Timothy 2:21
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work."

so we see that if a man purge himself of certain things ( through the faith and grace of God and Christ working in him as he is a fellow labourer with God that is) then he shall be a vessel of Honour. if he does not purge himself of these things he will be a vessel of dishonour. So the parameters and boundaries of what vessel all will be are set by God but who comes into that honour or dishonour are those who believe or have unbelief.

Romans 9 is showing how God can choose the way of salvation the way he wants. And he did choose it by grace through faith not of works. But the jews would question him and say why did you make us this way then, to try by the law and we seek salvation by the works of the law not of faith. The whole argument s based n this that the Jews sought it by the works of the law and they failed but the gentles sought by faith and have attained. Some misunderstand this entire chapter to their own detriment sadly.

 

[LoveofTruth]

No, it only shatters the election view of yourself, who never believed it.

I do believe in election, but not the way you do. I also believe in predestination but not as you do

 

[Bible2+]

LoveofTruth said in post #23:

So truly God gives life to those according to his will, and it is His will that none should perish . . .

2 Peter 3:9b means that God is not willing that any of the elect perish, but that all of the elect repent. For the "any" and the "all" refer back to the "us" (or "you"), which refers back to the elect (2 Peter 1:10). God is willing that the nonelect perish, for he purposely created them to perish (Romans 9:21-22). The ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18), and he gives it only to the elect. For he is not willing that the nonelect repent (Romans 9:18-22).

LoveofTruth said in post #23:

God is not giving them life based on their good works either, it is by grace he gives life through Jesus death and resurrection .

Initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they are actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant cannot "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person cannot become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

LoveofTruth said in post #23:

And as in Adam all died even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Note that 1 Corinthians 15:22 does not assure a resurrection to eternal life. For while even the unsaved will ultimately be resurrected (Revelation 20:12-15; 1 Corinthians 15:22), it will be to their ultimate damnation (John 5:29b) in the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone with Satan and his fallen angels (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).

Also, this applies even to the elect. For even though they all get initially saved at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b, John 6:37a), and Jesus will not physically lose any of them, but will physically resurrect all of them (John 6:39) at his second coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23), some of them will be resurrected to damnation (John 5:29), to shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

LoveofTruth said in post #23:

As the condemnation came upon all men through Adam, so also the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life Romans 5, through Jesus Christ.

Note that in Romans 5:18b the original Greek word (pas: G3956) translated as "all" can be used in the sense of "all manner of" (e.g. Acts 10:12). Romans 5:18b does not mean that absolutely all men are justified, for justification requires faith (Romans 5:1), and not all men have faith (2 Thessalonians 3:2). Instead, the principle of Romans 5:18b applies only to the elect (2 Timothy 2:10).

LoveofTruth said in post #23:

Irresistible Grace: Some would say that when God calls his elect to salvation they cannot resist. This would make them no more than a robot and with now will or ability to do anything.

While God makes it possible for saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), he does not take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom he forces to dance across the stage as he pulls on their strings. Instead, he leaves them as his real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus, to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

2 Corinthians 5:9, 1 Corinthians 3:9, Colossians 1:29, Philippians 2:12b, Titus 3:8, and Romans 2:6-8 show that Christians themselves must actually labor, along with God. Ultimate salvation is synergistic because Christians can end up losing their salvation if they wrongly employ their free will to stop their laboring, i.e. to become utterly lazy, without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Initial salvation by grace through faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-5) does not automatically produce good works. That is why saved people must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8), and why it is possible for saved people to wrongly employ their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

LoveofTruth said in post #23:

Jesus said he would draw all men unto himself.

John 12:32 means that all manner of people can believe in Jesus and be saved (Revelation 5:9b), not absolutely all people (Romans 9:11-24), just as, for example, John 3:26c means that all manner of people came to Jesus during his first-coming earthly ministry, not absolutely all people. The original Greek word (pas: G3956) translated as "all" can simply mean "all manner of" (e.g. Acts 10:12). It does not have to mean absolutely all.

John 12:32 does not mean that everyone can believe in Jesus, for other verses show that some people (the nonelect) cannot believe in him (John 6:65, John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42).

Also, John 12:32 does not mean that everyone will be saved, for other verses show that most people will not be saved (Matthew 25:41,46, Matthew 13:38-42, Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).

And John 12:32 does not mean that God originally intended to save everyone. For before the foundation of the world, he intended to save only the elect, the chosen (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13b, Acts 13:48b).

*******

LoveofTruth said in post #24:

2 Timothy 2:21
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work."

2 Timothy 2:20-21 relates only to elect people, who were created by God to be vessels of his mercy, not to nonelect people, who were created by God to be vessels of his wrath (Romans 9:11-24). That is, 2 Timothy 2:20-21 means that even among elect people, there can be honor and dishonor, depending on whether they obey or disobey God (1 Thessalonians 4:2-8).

 

[LoveofTruth]

An infant is born one day old wrapped in a white cloth.

When you look at that infant can any here say that at that time they are lost and if they were to die at that moment they would stand before God and hear Him say "away from me all ye that work iniquity into the fire prepared for the Devil and His angels"?

If so, do you have scriptures that say infants are not blessed as Jesus said and instead damned and on their way to hell at that moment ( I speak of one day old infants who know not to do good or evil)?

And if no scriptures can be brought then can you assure all mothers all over the world from all times that their 1 day old infant s is saved by the grace of God (until sin revives and they die spiritually and until they hate the light because their deeds are evil?)

what answer can you give to the mothers who have a one day old infant? did Christ die for them or not? are they saved or not? if they die in that state are they lost hell bound wicked workers of iniquity or are they saved by the grace of God and do not have sin imputed where there is no law and they are without the law so far at least to their understanding.

Can you say with confidence that the true Light does not Lighten every man that cometh into the world? and that all who are born on the earth do not have the Light as John says they do?

and the scriptures about I came forth speaking lies and in sin did my mother concieve me are not applicable to this and have been answered. All come into the world with a sin nature, but not all have actually transgressed yet. So all need a saviour infants included.

My question is really to all who read. Can you with confidence tell the mother who approaches you with a one day old infant that that infant is lost hell bound, or saved by Gods grace?

 

[Bible2+]

LoveofTruth said in post #27:

Can you with confidence tell the mother who approaches you with a one day old infant that that infant is lost hell bound . . .

It depends on whether or not the infant is elect:

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 ¶What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[LoveofTruth]

It depends on whether or not the infant is elect:

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 ¶What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Again the same question is asked, Can you tell the mother her child is lost hell bound or saved by the grace of God at that time?

also you misunderstand Romans 9. That section is speaking about faith and works. God chose all who come to him through faith not the works of the law. The jews sought it by the works of the law and the gentiles by faith. One attained not the (Jews) and the other attained the Gentiles). Read near the end of that chapter Paul sums up the whole argument this way.

The election in that first verse related to the messianic promise not to individual salvations. The Jews might ave aid to God why did you make us this way? why did you make salvation other than what you showed us and made us to try and keep ( offering to the law) But God can chose how he will save men. It is pride for men to think they can put God in their debt by their dead works. And a person becomes a vessel of Honour as they abide in Christ and purge themselves through his power of corruption as scripture says. They also become a vessel of dishonour if they do not abide in Christ or if they don't com to him. God has set the parameters of those who have faith and abide with him and those who do not but seek some other way to come to him

 

[SPF]

LoveofTruth:

No, you are wrong on all points and it is a classic error the way some will have their doctrine exposed and then say "well, you just don't understand it". But I do understand it. And a Calvinist who is exposed will often time stubbornly reject the truth even when it is right in front of them, I blame pride and a false sense of superiority that some have for not yielding to the scriptures of truth and sound words in this.

I am always wary of involving myself in these types of discussions because inevitably someone goes down this uncharitable, unloving, demeaning, and prideful road. LoveofTruth, you do realize that there are actually in existence humble and godly men that disagree with you on this subject, right? It's the epitome of pride for you assume that suddenly after well over 1,000 years that you have suddenly come along with the absolute theological Truth on this subject and God forbid someone disagree with you because hey, if they are... they are certainly being what you said - prideful, stubborn, and possessing a superiority complex.

Do you think you really are that much more humble and godly, and educated than Acquinas, Luther, Calvin, Edwards, what about John Piper or Norman Geisler or Wayne Grudem? You don't possess the golden theological keys of Truth. In your determination to insult others who disagree with you, all you do is reveal your own pride. It's quite telling.

Anyway. I think one of the problems is your understanding of Romans chapter 7. I took a quick look at a number of commentaries I have - Geneva, Gill's, Barnes', Poole's, Matthew Henry, Benson, Cambridge - they all disagree with you on your understanding of the verse. Now, I realize that you have come bearing Truth, so these men are all stubbornly rejecting the Truth and are prideful and suffering from superiority complexes. But they are pretty smart, and while I don't want to fall victim to the fallacy of appealing to authority, I would appeal to them before you (no offense).

But anyway, as for what happens to children when they die, Scripture isn't even explicitly clear. The best anyone can do, Calvinist or not is hope that the grace of God does indeed cover them. Which, given the character of God, I don't think is a hard stretch.

And as we know, God knows from our very outset the number of days we live before we exist. He formed us in our mother's womb, it's not a hard thing for a Calvinist to simply say that the unborn, young, and severely mentally handicapped are simply elect.

 

[LoveofTruth]

LoveofTruth: I am always wary of involving myself in these types of discussions because inevitably someone goes down this uncharitable, unloving, demeaning, and prideful road. LoveofTruth, you do realize that there are actually in existence humble and godly men that disagree with you on this subject, right?

I was speaking specifically about your words to me, not any one else. Though I have heard others use similar words as you did.

I don't think it is unloving or prideful to say that a doctrine is not right and try to help others be free from it.

If a person was to use your argument they would have rebuke all the reformers who stood against the catholic church for similar reasons.

It is possibly pride to say to a person "you don't understand election, or Calvinism". That assumes that the person saying that knows all I understand and they speak presumptuously not knowing. I do understand it i just don't agree. I could teach it clearly if i believed it. But i see it as a very false doctrine. So my words will be a bit more bold to help the saints.

It's the epitome of pride for you assume that suddenly after well over 1,000 years that you have suddenly come along with the absolute theological Truth on this subject and God forbid someone disagree with you because hey, if they are... they are certainly being what you said - prideful, stubborn, and possessing a superiority complex.?

Again that argument could have been used against all the protestants who rightly stood against the catholic church in history. In fact that argument could have been used by some against Jesus. I can hear the pharisees saying to Jesus " do you think you can correct us?, we have been teaching and leading for a long time and have many honoured men who are part of our leadership, then suddenly you come along and teach some new things". Their arguments would have been false. The same things were done to the apostles and prophets in scripture and in truth, to many saints throughout history who corrected any in a large religious form with false doctrine.

Just because a group has been around for a very long time and may have over 1 million followers doesn't make them right. Even if they can claim centuries of men they built their religious ideas on. Think of the cults, that could claim the same things.

Do you think you really are that much more humble and godly, and educated than Acquinas, Luther, Calvin, Edwards,

This argumentation is actually not right you use here. And we are not to commend ourselves by ourselves and with other men as if some are great ones over others.

And you would have rebuked some of those men for the new ideas that they had that shook the entire church of the world. Can you imagine some of the bishops using your same line of arguing to Luther and saying, "do you think you are that godly and humble over this group of bishops and clergy and over all the many years that the catholic church has reigned over the world? Who do you think you are Luther to even dare to correct us and think you are right. You are so proud and self righteous and rebellious to the authority of the catholic church? " I can imagine a similar kind of talk. And your words are right in line.

By the way I am not alone in my understanding, others have seen such things all through history. But even if I was the last person on earth to stand for Gods truth against all I would stand. We have seen faithful minister do this in history and even When Constantine said to Athanasis ( I believe) don't you know the whole world is against you?, he said, "then I am against all". He stood faithfully for the Trinity doctrine.

You don't possess the golden theological keys of Truth.

All true ministers of God have been given the keys in some measure. I am not alone in this. By the ay there are multitudes of believers throughout the centuries that have rightly withstood calvinism and many other false doctrines.

I have something more than a golden key of truth ( as you put it) I have the anointing which teaches all things and is truth (1 John 2:27 KJV). I have an unction from the Holy One and know all things, (as John said believers do). And when i speak a word in due season it is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.

In your determination to insult others who disagree with you, all you do is reveal your own pride. It's quite telling.

No I do not insult, I merely pointed out that to say a person doesn't understand your doctrine (when I do) is insulting and prideful on your part. And it is not an argument from scripture.

Anyway. I think one of the problems is your understanding of Romans chapter 7. I took a quick look at a number of commentaries I have - Geneva, Gill's, Barnes', Poole's, Matthew Henry, Benson, Cambridge - they all disagree with you on your understanding of the verse

Again, we don't have to agree with men of other ideas, each of them has various differences with each other. But i can easily find others who do agree with Romans 7:9 that Paul refers to his childhood without the law. I have read commentators who agree with this. So we don't need to play that game of one commentator agrees and another doesn't.

Scripture is plain, where no law is there is no transgression and sin is not imputed where there is no law, without the law sin was dead and Paul said he was alive without the law once (spiritual life must be the life he speaks of) but the commandment came ( to his understanding) sin revived (the sin nature that was dormant in him) and iI died ( spiritual death must be spoken of because he was still physically alive).

Also there are things in the last days that shall be revealed that were not known in the past such as the Book of Daniel we read of sealing up certain things until the end. And we read also that knowledge shall increase in the last days. Even spiritual knowledge I believe to those who walk in God's grace in these dark times. For where sin abound grace does MUCH MORE ABOUND. Many of the things the Lord has shown me are vital for our time and they would help the body to come to the unity of the Spirit and to all speak the same things and have the same mind and the same judgement, which we should have.

Now, I realize that you have come bearing Truth, so these men are all stubbornly rejecting the Truth and are prideful and suffering from superiority complexes. But they are pretty smart, and while I don't want to fall victim to the fallacy of appealing to authority, I would appeal to them before you (no offense).

I don't say anything about such men, you did. Its a straw man argument. But if any man believes a false doctrine, God will judge his heart and how that false doctrine affected his relationship with God and his spiritual walk. False doctrines are some more severe than others and even damnable, others are not as severe but they all affect the way we see the gospel and God and jesus christ and the christian life and walk etc. And any false doctrine is not in the truth and therefore dangerous somehow. But as to the hearts of any man, God knows.

But anyway, as for what happens to children when they die, Scripture isn't even explicitly clear.

As far as you understand scripture. You really have no answer to the woman who is concern for her 1 Day old child that might be sick and about to die to assure her of any hope. I can assure her and according to scripture. And for me to say i can is not pride, I base it on scripture and the anointing of God he has given and the body of believers who have shared similar thoughts throughout the ages.

The best anyone can do, Calvinist or not is hope that the grace of God does indeed cover them.

That is presumptuous and a bit prideful to say. How do you know the best any can do? based on your understanding you say that. But thats not the best I can do, I can show them Jesus own words about infants and children and How he blessed then and forbid them not, and said of such is the kingdom of heaven. That their angels do always behold the face of the Father etc.

And as we know, God knows from our very outset the number of days we live before we exist. He formed us in our mother's womb, it's not a hard thing for a Calvinist to simply say that the unborn, young, and severely mentally handicapped are simply elect.

They may say what they will. But I use scripture to say it that God has saved every infant coming into the world, and until they have sin revive and die (spiritually ) and until they hate the light because their deeds are evil, they are saved and not condemned. John 3 and Romans 7 etc etc etc. It is still true that the true Light eightieth every man that cometh into the world.

 

[SPF]

"I have something more than a golden key of truth ( as you put it) I have the anointing which teaches all things and is truth (1 John 2:27 KJV). I have an unction from the Holy One and know all things, (as John said believers do). And when i speak a word in due season it is like apples of gold in pictures of silver."

You remind me of David Koresh.

 

[LoveofTruth]

"I have something more than a golden key of truth ( as you put it) I have the anointing which teaches all things and is truth (1 John 2:27 KJV). I have an unction from the Holy One and know all things, (as John said believers do). And when i speak a word in due season it is like apples of gold in pictures of silver."

You remind me of David Koresh.

Now who's insulting

Interestingly I just said scripture there and you attacked me, I think you should reconsider these verses and try to fit them into your theology

"20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things." (1 John 2:20 KJV)

"27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1 John 2:27 KJV)

Proverbs 25:11
"A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver."

I guess some today cannot read scripture and be taught by the Spirit in their hearts and through the body in the Spirit as Christ dwells in each. They need to just read some old writer in the reformation times or a modern writer and hope they heard from God. This is not the way we learn all things. If a man is in Christ and has written anything true the Spirit teaches us if it is true consider this section

"2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God....
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."

and I am not judged of you or of man's judgement, I don't even judge myself this way, But the Lord Judges all things. We must all seek to judge spiritual judgement and to grow in all love and all judgement.

 

[SPF]

So what happens when someone else self-claims an anointing in the same way you have (which was for someone else in the first place anyway), and then you two disagree. How do you figure that one out?

Self anointed speakers of God like you claim to be often find themselves in the same camp of people like Charles Russell, Joseph Smith, and Muhammad.

I can only assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you are not part of any actual Church body, right?

 

[LoveofTruth]

So what happens when someone else self-claims an anointing in the same way you have (which was for someone else in the first place anyway), and then you two disagree. How do you figure that one out?

Self anointed speakers of God like you claim to be often find themselves in the same camp of people like Charles Russell, Joseph Smith, and Muhammad.

I can only assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you are not part of any actual Church body, right?

We are to try the spirits and this is by the spiritual witness and the scriptures that were given by the Spirit and can only truly be understood by the Spirit and the body of Christ that must also be spiritual

Theses three

1.God directly working in me and teaching me all things and giving discernment

2. the holy scriptures that are given by God working in other brothers and do the first witness of God in me will bear witness to the scriptures as well

3. The body of Christ thsat have God working in them also with a variety of gifts and understandings from God. In the multitude of counsel there is safety

 

[Sammy-San]

No, you are wrong on all points and it is a classic error the way some will have their doctrine exposed and then say "well, you just don't understand it". But I do understand it. And a Calvinist who is exposed will often time stubbornly reject the truth even when it is right in front of them, I blame pride and a false sense of superiority that some have for not yielding to the scriptures of truth and sound words in this.

I think in reality many Calvinist or those who hold such views do not understand the spiritual aspects of this teaching I am sharing. This discussion goes into the great mystery of Christ in us the hope of glory and the wonderful Light of Christ the Seed.

I understand the view of election. But my discussion also exposes the errors of other aspects of the calvinistic doctrine

Total Depravity - is exposed because while we can agree that all men have a sin nature and there is none good, no not one. God has given , by his grace the free gift of Christ the Light , the Seed to every man to give life and unto justification of life. This free gift was given through the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. God was able to give all men this Light even in the past, seeing what was to come in the future and through mens faith in his righteousness he could give then the things that are not yet, or He gave them the reality of that life inwardly. So yes all are depraved and there is none good of themselves and there is no good thing in the flesh. But God has given all have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us. This treasure inwardly is the Light of Christ the word and seed sown in the hearts.
So that aspect of calvinism, is also shown to be in error, for God has given men the ability inwardly in their conscience to know this light and to know good and evil as Romans 2 speaks of that even the Gentiles which have not the law do by nature (God's natural way he deals with all men) the things contained in the law, these having not the law are a law unto themselves, which show the work of the law written in their hearts their conscience also bearing witness. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to the gospel.

Unconditional Election - While God does not wait for men to do good of themselves to base his decisions on. He does see how they receive him or believe in their heart in the Light of Christ. Jesus said while ye have the light believe in the light . This Light Christ also speaks of in John3 and He says that the reaosm men are condemned is when they hate the light because there deeds are evil. This again corrects the error of calvinism. For all men have this Light, infants as well and so until the infant hates that light because his deeds are evil he is not condemned. he is only condemned when he hates that light as jesus said. But a child , or INFANT of one day old has not done any good or evil yet , and he has not transgressed a known law. Therefore where no law is there is no transgression and sin is not imputed where there is no law. Paul said he was alive without the law once, but the commandment came sin revived and he died. This being alive once without the law, is the state of all infants at at least one day old. Spiritually alive, that is, until the commandment comes to thier understanding and sin revives and they die. This death is when the flesh and fallen nature is awakened and they hate the light and do evil works. So it starts with their hating the light and manifest in their doing good or evil works. This is not unconditional election as the calvinist teach and it corrects this doctrine also because it shows that all infants are elect and the reason they are damned is when they hate the light (JOHN 3) and when the commandments comes and sin revives and they die (Romans 7:9 etc).
So truly God gives life to those according to his will, and it is His will that none should perish, and so a one day old infant who has not had sin revive yet or had the commandment come to his understanding or hated the light and done evil, is saved until then. Christ died for their sin also. God is not giving them life based on their good works either, it is by grace he gives life through Jesus death and resurrection .
If the child does not understand to do good or evil yet and has not done any good or evil yet, then sin is not imputed for to him that knoweth to do good and doth it not it is sin. But a child known not these things, or rather a one day old infant.
So Unconditional election is refuted by what i share here. None are elected to damnation until they hate the Light and all infants have not done that yet so they are in the election of salvation. only when they hate the light and have sin revive will they die and be condemned and need to be born again.

Limited Atonement:- Jesus did not die for only the elect (as calvinist would have it only for the ones who came to believe in Jesus). As I have been showing all infants have salvation through the grace of God and sin is not imputed unto them where there is no law and where no law is there is no transgression, Paul said he was ALIVE without the law once. So this Limited salvation view is false again by the infant salvation teaching.
Christ truly died for the sin of the whole world, (infants included). The only time men are condemned is when they hate the light because their deeds are evil. A infant has not done any good or evil yet until the commandment comes to his understanding (either heard through the law, or inwardly heard through the conscience)
The idea of calvinism that jesus only bore the sins of the elect. is not as they would have it. For all infants are also the elect until they hate the light.
He is truly the saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. And as in Adam all died even so in Christ shall all be made alive. As the condemnation came upon all men through Adam, so also the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life Romans 5, through Jesus Christ. Infants also have this free gift came upon them through the work of Jesus Christ. They also have the true Light that eightieth EVERY MAN (infants included) that cometh into the word.
In the end when there is a new heaven and all the saints are with God, we can say he died for me and all there. But he did died for all mankind and the whole world, its just that they believed not and hated the light and did not come to him to have life. Even though at one time as an infant he covered them and gave life through his grace. This could be said of the angels that sinned also. They were once in Gods Light and grace and perfect in their ways . But when they dinned they will end in the lake of fire. But at one time God showed grace to them.
So again infant salvation defeats this aspect of Calvinism.

Irresistible Grace: Some would say that when God calls his elect to salvation they cannot resist. This would make them no more than a robot and with now will or ability to do anything. This is a false idea. But what we can agree upon is that this free gift, this treasure in earthen vessels, the true Light that eightieth every man, the word sown, calls all men unto God. This light shines in the darkness and God's voice speaks to all n the heart if they hear. But men reject this and hate this light and word and turn their hearts away and harden to this. This shows that they can resist the call but God will still rebuke them of all sin and shine to convict them. This they cannot resist. But he does so that t there might be hope and they would repent and turn to him in their hearts and call unto him as they are broken and exposed. Jesus said he would draw all men unto himself. But he said to some how often he would have gathered them together BUT THEY WOULD NOT. This shows that they resisted his call even though he wanted them to come. God is not willing that any should persist ( by any I mean all men and the ones who do perish) . If God is not willing for this then obviously men are self-willed ( as scripture teaches) and resisting his will.
That section in Romans 9 that says "who hath resisted his will" was posed as a question the jews would have asked about why God made them the way he did. This was spoke by those who were resisting the Holy Ghost as their fathers did so did they.

Acts 7:51
"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

This is as clear as day to the unbiased reader. Stephen filled with the Holy Ghost said they had and do resist God.
So as far as infant salvation exposing this error. All infants are given grace by God and have not resisted this yet, but they will be able to resist it when sin revives and they die and when they hate the light because their deeds are evil. So this Light is not of mans will or power it is of God and his free gift.

Perseverance of the Saints: - claiming that none can lose their salvation and that they will preserver if they are the elect. This is again disproven by infant salvation. They were once saved , and so the elect, and they died spiritually when sin revives and condemned when they hate the light and need to be born again. They may come to receive Christ and believe the truth and then later hate the light again and harden their hearts through and evil heart of unbelief and depart from God (Hebrews 3:12) and be lost and end up in the lake of fire one day.
The fallen angels are an example of this and Judas and others in scripture.


My argument is referring specifically to a one day old infant who is born. Have you met any one day old infants that are doing evil willingly, that know their left hand from their right ? that knoweth to do good and doth it not?Or that have the commandment come to them ( their understanding) and understand it?
If all one day old infants are saved by the grace of God and given the free gift unto justification of life then all are in that state when they come into the world. The true Light still eightieth every man that cometh into the world. This Light will give life and when sin revives it is the reproof of sin, all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light, for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.



I speak of a one day old infant for the sake of this discussion.Jesus blessed the infants.



None are good the dormant fallen nature of a infant still shows that they fall short of the glory of God and need a saviour. Even though they haven't done any actual transgressions they still have a sin nature. Christ died for the sin of the world. In leviticus there are two offerings for sin specifically, of the five offerings. That is the sin offering and the trespass offering. the sin offering is I believe, for the nature of mens sin against God, and a general aspect of the law is shown. The trespass offering os for actual trespasses and transgressions against God and more specific things are mentioned. I see in these two the sin offering for all men and infants as to their sin nature and the trespass offering for actual transgressions. Paul said where no law is there is no transgression. To an infant there is no law yet and so no actual transgressions. But they still have a sin nature and need a saviour, and so Jesus Christ died for their sin.

And a person can be in salvation and then in the end be in the lake of fire. We see this in many examples in scripture. We also see this in the angels that sinned and will end up there and in Judas who was called a sheep by Jesus and sent to the lost sheep and who once belonged to the Father once and then lost it and fell by transgression and had his name blotted out of the book of life.



Wrong, predestination is (as the text says) to be conformed to the image of His Son. The end destination for those who come to believe in Jesus and who fight the good fight of faith and who lay hold of eternal life (which is Jesus Christ himself 1 John 1) is to be conformed to that image of Christ.

Predestination is speaking of the plan not the individual or destining one over the other with no choice of any. But it speaks the body of Christ that God had planned from the beginning and the end that Christ may be all and in all. The one new man all will be conformed to in the final destination.

God always had in mind a "in Christ group" that would be the destination of all He foreknew who would come to believe the truth.

What about people who say God didn't chose to save certain people? What about the names in the book of life?

 

[LoveofTruth]

What about people who say God didn't chose to save certain people? What about the names in the book of life?

The book of life is for the end when all who will be judged out of it are read. it does not say they were not once in it and blotted out. Judas was blotted out of the book of life Psalms 69 with Acts 1.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You remind me of David Koresh.

You remind me of that skunk in your pic

 

[Sammy-San]

The book of life is for the end when all who will be judged out of it are read. it does not say they were not once in it and blotted out. Judas was blotted out of the book of life Psalms 69 with Acts 1.

Who is the son of perdition?

However, Judas and the Antichrist are extreme cases. It is never right for a human being to label another person a “son of perdition” because only God knows the ultimate future of each human soul. Only with these two individuals did God choose to reveal His plan for their eternal damnation. With every other person, no matter how lost or evil he may seem, we are to hope and pray for his redemption (1 Timothy 2:1).